EVE General Discussion

he said treshold, not threshold (this was bolded in the quote). Like the way the irish sound like they;re saying 'tree' when they're actually saying 'three'. :)

(it was a tongue in cheek joke. ;-) )

I will simply quote my past comment on the subject:



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3575837#post3575837

Keep hardwiring implants and do this. Still get rid of learning implants and base attributes of course.

The solution you are looking for is in your own reply. Jump clones but a cheap +2 or +3 implants in it and you lose 6480sp a day for a set of +2's. Which is no difference at all.

Also Low sec is safe for pods if you know the area(dont warp to the Osoggur gate when in amamake and places like rancer) aka the lightly spots to see smart bombs

You're using logic to argue against the way he FEELS. The OCD about implants is a psychological thing; makes no sense but there it is.

It's probably a lot easier for CCP to put out a dev blog (everyone reads dev blogs) with some statistics and pretty charts to drive home the point that there's almost no difference between +2's and +4's. Add Rancer and Amamake to everyone's avoidance list, like Jita is. But they haven't even considered that. Instead they're proposing Pavlovian manipulation of our behavior (remove implants -> we PVP more), and coding a whole bunch of changes to the skill system in order to implement it.

People put a lot of irrational value on their skill points. Remember how everyone raced for Destroyer 5 and Battlecruiser 5 in order to gain free skill points when CCP split those into the 4 racial skills? Some even re-subscribed just to make sure they had the skills ready. Are they flying destroyers or battlecruisers now, more than before? Unlikely; so training for Destroyer 5 and BC 5 made no logical sense. Yet CCP got surprise income out of a change to some skills that was done just for balancing purposes.

Thank you CCP Darwin. There's so much talk about "dumbing down" and "noob friendliness" that I sometimes think that people on this forum think that the secret to good game design is just adding more features when, in fact, it is often the opposite.

The removal of learning skills was a huge plus. The removal of permanent race-based attributes was a huge plus. The truth is that the attribute system was a bad feature from the point of conception. People in this thread are talking about not PVPing in learning implants, or not training skills outside your remap, as though these are just irrelevant bad feels. But these bad feels stem from a very real game design flaw. Both learning implants and remaps create a perverse incentive where the most fun thing to do and the most efficient thing to do are at direct odds.

This is not the good-complexity creating risk vs. reward. This is just a system with no purpose other than to cause bad feels (and the occasional shadenfreude good feels in people who look down on the bad feels people).

I am 100% for removing base attributes (so you always train as though you had an optimal remap), and almost 100% in favour of removing learning implants. My only slight reservation is that I wouldn't want to remove the pirate sets and they would definitely need a rebalance and/or availability bump if they were the only uses for slots 1 to 5.

I've also noticed a few people talking about removing hardwirings. I don't think that's a good idea and I also don't think it was ever really on the table. Hardwirings directly interact with what you are doing at the moment. You plug them in to use them proactively. They provide an opportunity to get a vital tiny edge in a fight in exchange for an up front investment and an increased risk if you lose your pod. This is exactly the good sort of risk vs. reward that makes EVE great and the sort of complexity we should maintain while cutting away the cruft.

We have theorycrafted this out for years now. My best advice is to make damn sure you guys get a good replacement for what is essentially the LP floor of EVE.

Ya I wouldn't be a fan of losing implants. This is an element of Risk to the game.

The argument that implants are what keeps people from PvPing is silly at best. If you want to make it easier, then just lower the standings needed for JC's, or make it so you can always make a JC from your original school.. There.. done.

I mean why shouldn't I be able to train faster? I Trained the Cybernetics skill. I Paid for my implants, and optimized a skill plan. And I take a risk EVERY time I undock that I could get podded. Even in Highsec. Done implants and remaps can save weeks and months off long term goals.. And it's a choice we should be free to make. I learned this stuff fast. Why do we need to spoon feed everything to a new player? I'm not saying Eve needs to be a learning.. wall. But You get implants in the Tutorials.. YOU GET THEM. And while using them offers some advantage, it's not the Huge advantage you get from knowing specific skills to train, or remapping, or knowing tactics, etc.

Saying that those implants are the reason, well as was mentioned before.. Lets remove expensive ships, and ammo's, and modules. Lets just have Eve be just T1 Frigs and Meta0 modules.. No.

Personally I wasn't a huge fan of the change of Med Clones. That was an element of the game that needed to be Fixed, but didn't need to be nuked. It's not the end of the world, but it's one less risk/reward. How many times did DBRB loose Fleet 5 cause he forgot to update his clone?


I'm all for helping a new player learn the game. That's a good thing. Better tutorials, better training missions. Tool tips.. All Great. But we don't need to dumb down the game too. Eve is a Complex Game. It's why I play it.

If you get rid of base attributes and learning implants then new possibilities arise.
People currently argue against reassigning trained skill points because they could have been learned at a lower rate owing to attributes.

This opens the door to an annual skill remap which means that players could deconstruct unwanted skills and load them into a new area ready for another year invested in the game. That would definitely be an improvement.

Removing Learning implants would be great for my EVE experience. The decision between what level of learning increase I want vs the value of the pod I might lose keeps me clone jumping between high sec for training and low/null for combat.

It means I participate less and that I have to actively manage my jump clones far more not to play the game, but to avoid slower skill training.