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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#481 - 2015-02-02 18:14:36 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.



its called months of training to see a benefit and by the time you do you could have reached near max efficiency with a handful of frig types before you meet the break even point for +5's.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#482 - 2015-02-02 18:23:10 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.



its called months of training to see a benefit and by the time you do you could have reached near max efficiency with a handful of frig types before you meet the break even point for +5's.


Okay. That's false equivalence really since many ships and items require rank 5 in something.

For reference my skill queue dropped from somethig crazy like 680 days to 471d when going from 0 - +5. Cutting half a year off your training time is a measurable advantage for any person or group who doesn't need generalists. Infact during those early days the gains from rank 5ing the important skills would be so much more important as to say again don't not have a training clone unless you live in wormholes.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#483 - 2015-02-02 18:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.



its called months of training to see a benefit and by the time you do you could have reached near max efficiency with a handful of frig types before you meet the break even point for +5's.


Okay. That's false equivalence really since many ships and items require rank 5 in something.

For reference my skill queue dropped from somethig crazy like 680 days to 471d when going from 0 - +5. Cutting half a year off your training time is a measurable advantage for any person or group who doesn't need generalists. Infact during those early days the gains from rank 5ing the important skills would be so much more important as to say again don't not have a training clone unless you live in wormholes.



That is more than a 2 year skill queue comparing +5 to nothing. try +4 compared to your +5. You where talking about newbros who would be better served in a +3 or +4 implant set and taught the right way to plan and remap there attributes


Edit: and cybernetics to lv 5 only gets you high end pirate implants and +5's. You could be an almost maxed interceptor pilot by the time cybernetics from l4 to lv5 pays off in terms of training along with other frig types.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#484 - 2015-02-02 18:47:09 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.


Oh I remember the early days. Getting killed by rats in my blackbird because of my shitfit (I also was highly dissapointed in the look of the ship as I thought the picturecard was of the ships side on view), the joy our corp had when I got a mining barge, swapping from caldari to amarr because "lazors look perdy".

I also know that new players are viable in pvp from 30 minutes old and are far more bloodtursty than players who decide to wait six months before they try PvP.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#485 - 2015-02-02 19:14:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.


Oh I remember the early days. Getting killed by rats in my blackbird because of my shitfit (I also was highly dissapointed in the look of the ship as I thought the picturecard was of the ships side on view), the joy our corp had when I got a mining barge, swapping from caldari to amarr because "lazors look perdy".

I also know that new players are viable in pvp from 30 minutes old and are far more bloodtursty than players who decide to wait six months before they try PvP.



they become even more potent after 8 hours and get a MWD.
Amanda Compton
PIXEL Corp
#486 - 2015-02-02 19:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Compton
Lena Lazair wrote:
Have this specific combination suggested yet, but what I would like to see is combinationhe removal of remaps and set all base attrs to a fixed val under the hood. I agree that the complexity here is not really "good" gameplay content for newbs and vets alike, just annoyance.

However, leave the impact of attrs in place and leave the +2/3/4 effect for low/mid/high grade sets to give people incentive and reward for using those nice juicy high-grade sets and letting newbs have a sense of progression with them.

Finally, take the existing learning implants and repurpose them into low/mid/high grade sets with generic fitting bonuses (basically +cpu and +pg), like the Genolution sets do now. Having fitting implants as a pirate set gives newbs a way to offset their skill deficit. As they get their core fitting skills trained up they can start replacing this set with the other more special purpose sets.

The benefit of this change is that you no longer have any incentive to stay only in a +5 clone. You might decide between low/mid/high based on safety, but at no point are you using a non-combat set. The best you can do is the +4 of a high-grade so you might as well pick a pirate set that works for you (with the new fitting pirate set being a nice default option for many generic cases and newbs).

Leave hardwirings exact as they are now.

And big +1 to no-cooldown JC swapping when in the same station.


and what if i have max fitting skills but i still wanna have +5 to train faster and pvp in while having them ?
am i not allowed to because it doesnt fit ur game play ???

these implants gives us alot of combinations but that doesnt mean the combination u dont use is bad combination it just doesnt fit ur game play but sure it fits lots of other people gameplays

and no i dont wanna fly in ******** high grade pirate set because that **** is costly

you see u need 6 high grade implants to make a diffrance but u need only 2 +5 implants to make a diffrance in training
Memphis Baas
#487 - 2015-02-03 05:09:50 UTC
Flying with attribute implants is like flying with trade goods in your cargo hold:

- The ship's combat capabilities are NOT affected by either.
- There is additional loss if the ship (pod) is destroyed.
- People make a choice whether to put the implants in, and also whether to put the goods in the cargo bay.
- Those who transport cargo typically aren't looking for fights at that moment; the cargo is a PVP deterrent to them.

Some arguments focus on the deterrent, others on the fact that it's a choice, others on the fact that the destruction of the cargo adds value to the killmail. Would traders pick up PVP if ferrying cargo is no longer available as a game mechanic? With so many different arguments, it's unlikely that we'll reach a consensus.

Ultimately, CCP will do what they want.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#488 - 2015-02-03 10:39:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.


Oh I remember the early days. Getting killed by rats in my blackbird because of my shitfit (I also was highly dissapointed in the look of the ship as I thought the picturecard was of the ships side on view), the joy our corp had when I got a mining barge, swapping from caldari to amarr because "lazors look perdy".

I also know that new players are viable in pvp from 30 minutes old and are far more bloodtursty than players who decide to wait six months before they try PvP.


While I appreciate the sentiment how much modern exposure do you have to genuine newbies that weren't recruited through bbs or referral?

I deal with them quite often myself and they seem really surprised to learn about how things could have been if they had done things my way instead of their own. Otoh I don't normally give out advice anymore because of muh personal adventure etc that infects people who start out without someone to hold their hand from the beginning.

Whether you can accept it or not there is a "correct" way to play eve determined by factors completely removed from being in space. And then once you have undocked there's a right way to do everything there too?

Care to disagree?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#489 - 2015-02-03 11:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
I see a lot more smartbombing mallers just there to killboard pad / grief people in their pods, I can see why it's kinda a good idea...

...but since I have a full +5 'holiday' clone as well as a pair of +3 or 4s in my usual day to day clones I'd like to know the full extent of reimbursement and how the skill queues are going to be rebalanced if at all (potentially more skill remaps/year, ability to drop charisma to 0 etc)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#490 - 2015-02-03 12:46:38 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Flying with attribute implants is like flying with trade goods in your cargo hold:

- The ship's combat capabilities are NOT affected by either.
- There is additional loss if the ship (pod) is destroyed.
- People make a choice whether to put the implants in, and also whether to put the goods in the cargo bay.
- Those who transport cargo typically aren't looking for fights at that moment; the cargo is a PVP deterrent to them.

Some arguments focus on the deterrent, others on the fact that it's a choice, others on the fact that the destruction of the cargo adds value to the killmail. Would traders pick up PVP if ferrying cargo is no longer available as a game mechanic? With so many different arguments, it's unlikely that we'll reach a consensus.

Ultimately, CCP will do what they want.



um, if you look, there are many attribute implants that do impact your ship, in a mulititude of ways.

:)

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#491 - 2015-02-03 15:06:09 UTC
bloodknight2 wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
I mean the risk for newer players is MUCH higher with the implant system because we need the speed boost. A set of BASIC +4's runs about 130million. That is insane. Older players don't need that boost. Why make noobs take more risk than older players? It is backwards logic.


Cry moar.

You DO NOT NEED +4 implant. In fact, i have billions of isk and still buy +3 to my alt because the price for +1 attribute doesn't worth it in my opinion.

Next, removing faction modules because the poor noobs like you cannot afford buying mods worth hundreds of millions for only a small bonus? Removing skill hardwirings giving +5% to something because the new player cannot afford one?

130m isn't a lot. 130m is around 2 time cheaper than a fully fit BS. 130m is what you can make in 4-5h when you are quite new to this game.


I'd have to agree with this.

Considering the scenario of a new pilot, getting Cybernetics up probably isn't anywhere close to a priority. Especially considering how small of an impact Attribute Implants have on low training times. More than half of my queue is ~21h trains right now. Implants probably wouldn't even shave 30 minutes off that. They really start to ramp up with 20d+ trains. New pilots don't have a lot of those, if any, and getting those 20d+ skills to V isn't a priority either.

I can't understand what the fuss is all about. Get a jump clone with your learning implants and log it whenever you leave. I run with Mid Grade Snakes and I practically only use that for PvE since I'm bound to get bubble-raped in null.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#492 - 2015-02-03 16:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Not sure how I feel about the exact numbers but replacing the learning implants with fitting implants is not a bad idea. It would be very useful for new-to-mid players... though there's some chance of imbalanced new builds arising.


One possible option here is to make the fitting pirate set use flat CPU/PG numbers rather than % based values. This would put it in the realm of the MAPC, so it would generally speaking only be a balance issue in frigate/dessie fits and quickly become irrelevant for larger ships.

This nicely fits the goal of targeting it to newer players while making it that much easier to keep balanced. Flat values per-implant would also be much more transparent; you wouldn't need a fitting tool to sort out what your increase in % CPU/PG is from implants. This likewise helps when swapping individual implants from this set a new set; you can easily see what you are going to lose in fitting for each implant you change out and don't necessarily have to change them all at once. All of these things are good things for new players less familiar with EVE mechanics.

Sure, vets are still going to come up with some awesome frigate fits that take advantage of these, but 1) they are likewise giving up whatever current pirate effect they might instead use, so it's not pure benefit and 2) at least the balance problem is restricted to smaller ship classes instead of across the board, so it's slightly easier to manage.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#493 - 2015-02-03 16:44:50 UTC
Amanda Compton wrote:
and what if i have max fitting skills but i still wanna have +5 to train faster and pvp in while having them ?
am i not allowed to because it doesnt fit ur game play ???


Then stick in the cheapest +4 pirate set you can find and don't worry about it. There are already plenty of high-grades on the market cheaper than the current gen +5's.

The point is to normalize the implant curve so that there is never a reason not to have combat implants so absolutely no one is ever "stuck" in a +5 learning clone and no one is tempted to burn a JC cool down just to get back to their +5 clone. Everyone caps out at +4, period, which leaves more people in combat sets more of the time. There are already way too many excuses for people to stay docked; we don't need to keep this one.

Further, the differential from newbie training to vet training because of implants and remaps is precisely what needs to be narrowed. The way to do that is to get rid of remaps completely and condense the benefit of implants into a smaller range. All attrs at, say, 25 base with a range of +2 to +4 on the implants gives everyone a much more balanced training curve. You still get the excitement and benefit of improving your character a bit when you buy your first set of +4's or whatever (good new player goal) but it's not so drastic as to be crippling when you don't have it.

But I guess, fundamentally, what I'm saying is that, yes, the "playstyle" that dictates training is a gameplay facet that should be balanced against doing fun stuff with your character is essentially flawed and should be removed. So if that is your playstyle I'm 100% for nerfing it into the ground. No one, vets and newbs alike, should have to make a serious long-term choice between "having fun with a character" and "training the character optimally". That's exactly why the entire set of learning skills were removed in the first place. The ability to train your character should not be interfering with the ability to play the game.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#494 - 2015-02-03 17:21:36 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Amanda Compton wrote:
and what if i have max fitting skills but i still wanna have +5 to train faster and pvp in while having them ?
am i not allowed to because it doesnt fit ur game play ???


Then stick in the cheapest +4 pirate set you can find and don't worry about it. There are already plenty of high-grades on the market cheaper than the current gen +5's.

The point is to normalize the implant curve so that there is never a reason not to have combat implants so absolutely no one is ever "stuck" in a +5 learning clone and no one is tempted to burn a JC cool down just to get back to their +5 clone. Everyone caps out at +4, period, which leaves more people in combat sets more of the time. There are already way too many excuses for people to stay docked; we don't need to keep this one.

Further, the differential from newbie training to vet training because of implants and remaps is precisely what needs to be narrowed. The way to do that is to get rid of remaps completely and condense the benefit of implants into a smaller range. All attrs at, say, 25 base with a range of +2 to +4 on the implants gives everyone a much more balanced training curve. You still get the excitement and benefit of improving your character a bit when you buy your first set of +4's or whatever (good new player goal) but it's not so drastic as to be crippling when you don't have it.

But I guess, fundamentally, what I'm saying is that, yes, the "playstyle" that dictates training is a gameplay facet that should be balanced against doing fun stuff with your character is essentially flawed and should be removed. So if that is your playstyle I'm 100% for nerfing it into the ground. No one, vets and newbs alike, should have to make a serious long-term choice between "having fun with a character" and "training the character optimally". That's exactly why the entire set of learning skills were removed in the first place. The ability to train your character should not be interfering with the ability to play the game.



high grade pirate impants get better with each one you have. You only need 2 +5's to get the most benefit from them.
Torbrun Shazih
Reavers Cartel
#495 - 2015-02-03 21:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Torbrun Shazih
All my toons are fitted with +5 implants to boost training speeds.

As ever, a lot of the discussion I see here seems to revolve around PVP and encouraging PVP, but there are players that have absolutely no interest in pursuing that style of gameplay. As an industrialist, anything that helps me chip through the mountain of science and production skills that bit faster is essential, and are more useful than enhancements to defense, arsenal or navigation. The industrially flavoured attribute implants are extremely scarce and consequently expensive when they make an appearance - the Omega seems almost mythical.

The hardwiring implants that would be beneficial for me mostly rely on the same implant slot and collectively offer limited incentive to bother investing in them at this time.

The first line of the OP opens discussion, but the word "apparently" casts doubt on the accuracy of the opening comment, and in the absence of proposed alternative plans, it's impossible to say whether any ideas under consideration are better or worse.

All I know is that I want to to chew through my skill training plans faster than I can at the moment. I'm of the view that if attributes and implants are under review, then the whole character skill training mechanic needs to be looked at the same time.
Anthar Thebess
#496 - 2015-02-04 08:40:08 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
people accept risk in this pvp centric MMO where consequences can be harsh?


I'm not on the team that brought this question up with the CSM, but I do have a question for you.

If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed?

Wouldn't you just spend your money on hardwirings instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat?

Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases?

I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.


I will spend this isk on hardwirings.
I think that making sp rate flat will only benefit this game.

What we need and cannot change is the introduction of enough replacement hardwirings so people that run missions will have still reason to do it.

Those implants provide good isk sink , but this one of the minor roles.
Simply people need isk to buy ships. Mission runners get most of their income from those implants , when you remove them they will need to move to something else in the LP stores , and this will make many items value to collapse.

Next item is trading , hauling and hunting on people who haul this stuff. This also will be gone.

What we need is to make all 5 basic implants still important by adding some additional effects to them.

Still it will be very hard to balance.

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Josef Djugashvilis
#497 - 2015-02-04 08:44:39 UTC
The same players who will not participate in pvp because they will not risk losing their learning implants will be the same players who will not pvp and risk losing their hardwired implants.

Don't most folk use a less expensive clone to pvp anyway?

This is not a signature.
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#498 - 2015-02-04 10:00:50 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The same players who will not participate in pvp because they will not risk losing their learning implants will be the same players who will not pvp and risk losing their [insert any item you can enter into combat with, ship, fittings, pod, etc].

Don't most folk use a less expensive clone to pvp anyway?



Fixed it for you ... Big smile

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#499 - 2015-02-04 10:02:34 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
people accept risk in this pvp centric MMO where consequences can be harsh?


I'm not on the team that brought this question up with the CSM, but I do have a question for you.

If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed?

Wouldn't you just spend your money on hardwirings instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat?

Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases?

I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.


I will spend this isk on hardwirings.
I think that making sp rate flat will only benefit this game.

What we need and cannot change is the introduction of enough replacement hardwirings so people that run missions will have still reason to do it.

Those implants provide good isk sink , but this one of the minor roles.
Simply people need isk to buy ships. Mission runners get most of their income from those implants , when you remove them they will need to move to something else in the LP stores , and this will make many items value to collapse.

Next item is trading , hauling and hunting on people who haul this stuff. This also will be gone.

What we need is to make all 5 basic implants still important by adding some additional effects to them.

Still it will be very hard to balance.


tend to disagree ... you choose where to spend your isk. All the time. On a basic cheapo ship, or a T2 ship, ... if you spend a cheapo ship you got more for the implants ... all swings and roundabouts. :)

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Josef Djugashvilis
#500 - 2015-02-04 11:03:45 UTC
Leannor wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
The same players who will not participate in pvp because they will not risk losing their learning implants will be the same players who will not pvp and risk losing their [insert any item you can enter into combat with, ship, fittings, pod, etc].

Don't most folk use a less expensive clone to pvp anyway?



Fixed it for you ... Big smile


Thank you Smile

This is not a signature.