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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Josef Djugashvilis
#441 - 2015-01-31 18:02:34 UTC
Am I the only one who is sick and tired of, 'but think about the noobs'?

We were all noobs once, we learned a bit, made some mistakes, learned some more, made more mistakes etc.

If Eve was so easy for noobs to grasp and understand in its entirety very quickly, I dare say most of us here would quit.

This is not a signature.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#442 - 2015-01-31 18:13:16 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Most of us aren't as crazy rich as you are, and 50 million is actually a significant amount of isk to us.


Im not crazy rich. I consider having 100 mil in the bank to be doing well.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Most players do not generate hundreds of millions of isk per hour, or even a hundred million, especially the high sec players you continually abuse.


I earn my isk from high sec missions.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Since not every single player runs at your perfect maximum optimisation for isk gathering that you love to scream about.


Its not hard to make 50 mil in a nights work.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Even running SOE missions I only turn 30 Mil/Hour


Thats level 2 income. You being bad at this game does not mean CCP should remove a whole range of implants.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#443 - 2015-01-31 20:19:36 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Am I the only one who is sick and tired of, 'but think about the noobs'?

We were all noobs once, we learned a bit, made some mistakes, learned some more, made more mistakes etc.

If Eve was so easy for noobs to grasp and understand in its entirety very quickly, I dare say most of us here would quit.

You're not.
infact plenty of the newbies I have spoken with (usually immediately after iv ruined their day)
actually like the challenge And find the notion that they could possibly beat someone else at it to be something of a motive .

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#444 - 2015-01-31 23:55:04 UTC
Have to say I think this is a good idea. As long as some kind of implants remain, there will still be risk of loss associated with losing your pod. And there will be more pod diversity once you're no longer basically required to use five slots on learning acceleration.

Hopefully if removed CCP would boost passive SP generation slightly to compensate. Perhaps a permanent equivalent of +2 or +3 implants?

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#445 - 2015-02-01 00:14:39 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Right now, as the game is, no one is forced to use any implants, training or otherwise, to remove the option to do so, would simply remove player options for no good reason.


Perfect engineering is found not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.

There needs to be a compelling gameplay reason to keep attributes and implants.

They aren't fun (They're pretty neutral on the fun scale, they aren't unfun either, they're just a thing)
They aren't providing meaningful choices (you always use the best implants you can afford, and you use estel arador to **** out enough JC's that you never have to choose between PvP and not risking your implants, everyone who cares uses evemon to map out year long skill queues and then remaps their attributes to optimise, everyone else sets a happy medium and forgets about it)
They aren't marketing the game to external audiences (external audiences don't pay attention to minutia like that)
They don't make the game easier for new players (see my earlier comment about formulas)

The strongest argument you could make is that they add flavor to the universe, but since we aren't talking about scrapping all implants, only learning implants and associated attributes, that's pretty weaksauce as an argument, and hardly a compelling gameplay reason to keep them.

Shitting up the games features for the sake of having a long feature list is not and has never been the mark of a quality product. Refactor them or chuck them, this has been a long time coming.


Sir Substance brought substance. I've been partly won over in favor of scrapping or overhauling. Have a like.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#446 - 2015-02-01 06:15:08 UTC
Attribute points are a useless over complication of the learning system with no purpose other than to fuel the mouse clicks of those with OCD. (Most of EvE I know) They, and the attribute implant bonuses, should have been cut from the game along with the learning skills a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. And the fact that high grade implants are +4 attribute on top of their bonus has always been a facepalm. Without dealing with crap learning implants I might actually bother setting up different clones with different hardwirings for specific applications, putting more isk into the market and more at risk.

CCP gets a +1 from me on this idea.

*End rant*

Daemun of Khanid
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#447 - 2015-02-01 09:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
The majority of the "defence of the noob" arguements are all based on hindsight, and knowledge and experience a noob does not have.

A day-old newbie doesn't care if he is recieving 1800 or 2400 sp/hr. Sure, he is aware one is bigger, and that bigger is probably better, but thats as far as his understanding goes.

Tell that day-old newbie he gets 2400 now, and only used to get 1800, he'll probably shrug and go "all games help late comers catch up". Its not a "victory" for him, its just how games go. It'll be forgotten the minute after you tell him. Ultimately his experience is changed in no way he can appreciate.

Tell that newbie "you used to be able to get implants that speed up your training time - you don't now, but they give you that speed-up for free", and odds are he'll say "why can't we get the implants too, I'd love to be able to speed up my training time?". It doesn't matter that he's in a better place now than he was, he'll just notice that the ability for him to effect his training is removed.

The fact is, removing Implants is removing game content. In a game that already lacks early-game milestones (it is a frequent comment made in newbie-experience discussions that EvE lacks the early feelings of achievement (that level-up "ding!") that keeps a player playing), do we really want to be removing one of those few milestones? The discovery of Implants (I can't remember if one is a tutorial reward (but it should be), but they certainly show up as early storyline rewards) is a milestone to a new player, and something to push them in to learning more about these items, giving them a new objective (get more and better ones).

I think CCP need to decide what this discussion is about. If its about removing complexity, Learning Implants dont add complexity, they are as staightforward as they get to understand (add implant, train faster). Sure, a rework of attributes would help this goal, but that doesn't require throwing Implants in the dumpster, just rework them alongside to suit the change (if attributes go completely, change Implants to flat % speed increases to set skill groups). If this discussion is about learning speed for new players (or all players in general), just tweak the numbers and call it a day (10% sp bunus up to 5mil sp, 5% bonus up to 10mil sp, or something like that), and leave Implants as the rewards and decisions they are.
Parsimony Kate
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#448 - 2015-02-01 10:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Parsimony Kate
As I see it, yes attribute implants are optional, no a lot of players don't bother with them, but there are plenty of players (myself included) who will feel that our SP matters and therefore we must learn with greatest efficiency. The common argument seems to be that you can still successfully (or at least entertainingly) PVP with practically no skills therefore having lots of SP doesn't matter...

... True. And great!

But what if you want to be something else, like say an industrialist? Or a trader? Or a miner? Or a hauler? Or maybe you want to do PVP but you want to be a logistics pilot, or fly a big arsed Titan etc? You need longer term, specific training plans for these types of careers, really anything beyond jumping straight into a cheap ship and getting yourself blown up in a totally hilarious way, involves training. Given the option *is* available to speed up training - even just a tiny bit, a lot of us will feel compelled to use that option to accomplish our goals and then we're stuck with the problem of how to not risk replacing our very expensive implants without compromising our sometimes very long training plans.

Either way I think removing attributes gets rid of this issue and that would be a positive change which will help to encourage more pilots to try out more diverse non-station-bound activities. And tbh it would have been nice not to have spent 2 weeks early on training cybernetics V! That seemed like an eternity as a brand new pilot itching to learn something more useful. Not to mention the cost of funding those implants, that level of expense early on just encourages mining.... :o

The skill implants are another matter. I'm not sure how I feel about those; the same risk/cost problems do apply certainly and for that reason it would be nice if they were lootable from corpses. It would help to lower the cost of them on the market if they were more prevalent and thereby reduce the financial burden of replacing them. I must admit I don't like the UI much for them, so I can see how having pod rigs (or pod modules if lootable) would be a more pleasant experience lol! I always have a slight moment of indecision when I look at the confirmation box to destroy an implant I want to replace as it doesn't state which one I'm destroying and I briefly wonder if I've selected the right one! Shocked

Edit: the poster above posted whilst I was writing this; surely no one is seriously suggesting new players believe they can 'catch up' or that there's any notion of introducing a mechanism to allow that? All the extra SP veteran players have is their reward for years of loyalty to the game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that - I certainly do not begrudge them their extra skills, and I absolutely would not be in any way offended or feel entitled had the implants been removed from the game before I joined last year. I honestly can't believe anyone else would be either...? I mean what the .... just what...?

Edit #2: I have a low grade fever so it's possible I may have misread some of the previous posts...
Marisol Aldurad
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2015-02-01 11:31:07 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
people accept risk in this pvp centric MMO where consequences can be harsh?


I'm not on the team that brought this question up with the CSM, but I do have a question for you.

If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed?

Wouldn't you just spend your money on hard-wiring instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat?

Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases?

I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.


You know what would make me spend a TON more on implants??? Giving me the ability to remove them w/o destroying them! it is a horrible combination of being stuck in a JC just to have access to the hard-wiring you need/want for a specific occasion.

Want to make people less risk averse -- keep your learning implant concept in play but make it part of "Medical Clone Refinement" - where you pay a cost in ISK to set an attribute from +1 to +5. Make them no longer part of the killmail, and not destroyed when you get podded.

With those two changes I'd happily spend billions on hot-swappable Skill base focused implants and use them all the time.

Last thought -- now that the Eve universe is enormous once again, consider dropping the Jump Clone refresh cycle to something like 8 Hours as a base. I would love to have the ability to go off and run an Amarr incursion in the a.m. and be able to be back again that same day to PVP out in my lowsec home while maintaining separate sets of implants to use on the fly.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#450 - 2015-02-01 11:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Removing learning implants is a bad decision for the gameplay it removes for players who generate them, but risk aversion over learning rates is a problem that needs to be addressed for the pulse of the game. SP accumulation is a passive activity that is affecting active gameplay.

A more elegant solution is zero cooldown for same-station jumps.

The issue is beyond the game mechanics and simple risk. SP accumulation is a benefit of paid subscription time. The thought process that causes this hangup of not undocking is simple. SP is important, and compared to the prospect of loss, SP accumulation over undocking is an easy and appealing choice.

Zero-cooldown same-station jump clone timers would allow players to make efficient use of inactive subscription time, without that decision affecting active gameplay, or the other way around. The two should be disconnected. They need to be disconnected.

Another result of zero-cooldown, same-station jump clones would be switching from an uber crystal clone to a slave clone, but I don't think this is anything to get upset about. It's not very different from docking to swap ships.

It doesn't even need to be a jump clone function. Add an option to the clone services window that lets you switch to a different clone in station.

I was accused in Malcanis' thread of wormhole hate, but as a former wormholer I promise you I don't have anything against wormholes. I'm just thinking in terms of existing game mechanics, and it's not my fault wormholes don't have stations. In fact I think they should get outposts.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#451 - 2015-02-01 13:10:44 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Am I the only one who is sick and tired of, 'but think about the noobs'?

We were all noobs once, we learned a bit, made some mistakes, learned some more, made more mistakes etc.

If Eve was so easy for noobs to grasp and understand in its entirety very quickly, I dare say most of us here would quit.


This.

We were all noobs once and we all know how hard eve is when you are new to this game. Tons of skills to learn, learning how to propely fit a ship, game mechanics, modules. New players have the game easier than we had. No more clone upgrade, ships rebalancing (HELPING A LOT) or learning skills.

When i was new to this game, i did not bought +4 right away. Used +2, then +3 and only after i had more iskies that i finaly used +4 and even now that i have billions of isk, i'm still using +3 on all my 3 characters (all in NPC corp in empire, so no, it is not because i fear being podded). Using +4 right away and whining because you cannot do PVP with them in your head is YOUR choise.

Like i said earlier, for dreadnought lv1, +4 implants are ONLY 3 days faster than +3. Not 1 week, 10 days, 20 days but 3 days. 74 vs 77 days. +3 are like a day and a half slower per month than +4. People think implants are giving them a huge boost in training time which is wrong.

How about a titan? Titan, fighter bomber, doomsday and capital guns all at 5 (no support skills).
Without implant : 685 days
With +3 implants : 596 days
With + 4 implants : 571 days

+3 implants are 89 days faster than without implant and +4 are 25 days faster than +3. In my opinion, implants are fine. They do not give that massive boost a lot of people think nor you need to absolutely have +4 to play this game and i don't understand how 50-100m of implant can be a lot for newer players. I lost an apocalypse in LS when i was less than a month old (yes i know, i have a low slot empty... apoc). A cruiser cost 10m, a BC up to 50m and a BS can easily cost 200m (all this without any module).


TDRL +4 implant does not give a massive boost over +3. You will be perfectly fine with +3 (even +2 for new player).
Kaleen Khadath
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#452 - 2015-02-01 16:10:51 UTC
I strongly support the idea to remove attributes, neural remaps and learning implants, but keeping hardwirings and the rest.

The logic behind it is very simple - do attributes, neural remaps and learning implants add anything to the game, besides unnecessary complexity? And the answer is: no. Are they challenging? No. Entertaining? No. Interesting? No. Do they attract new players? No. They just...are. They add complexity for the sake of complexity, and nothing else. Sure, they're an ISK sink, but you can just shift that burden to remaining implants without negatively impacting the game in any way.

It's the same as clone grades, removed in December. What did they add? NOTHING. They were an ISK sink, nothing more. The mechanic wasn't fun, challenging or interesting. It was just something you had to click through and sink ISK into when you got podded. Just busy work, unnecessary complexity.

"Wasteful to spin unnecessary adaptations. Complexity bad. " -Abathur
Nail Zota
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#453 - 2015-02-01 16:19:04 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:

A more elegant solution is zero cooldown for same-station jumps.



I just read 10 pages to check if this option was proposed and thought about as an alternative Blink
Adam Lyon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#454 - 2015-02-01 17:04:22 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Words about pods and such.


I wouldn't spend more on pods. +3 hardwirings are a bit too expensive for me in my throwaway PvP pods--I only use +2/3 learning implants for my current skillque because SP is objectively far more valuable to me as a character than +3% hybrid damage. Even though I rarely lose pods, I still wouldn't put +3s in in all likelyhood.

~6% damage (on a single weapon type) isn't worth 40-50m if faster SP (the only thing worth far more than isk) is only worth 10-20m for me.
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#455 - 2015-02-01 21:04:23 UTC
Kaleen Khadath wrote:
I strongly support the idea to remove attributes, neural remaps and learning implants, but keeping hardwirings and the rest.

The logic behind it is very simple - do attributes, neural remaps and learning implants add anything to the game, besides unnecessary complexity? And the answer is: no. Are they challenging? No. Entertaining? No. Interesting? No. Do they attract new players? No. They just...are. They add complexity for the sake of complexity, and nothing else. Sure, they're an ISK sink, but you can just shift that burden to remaining implants without negatively impacting the game in any way.

It's the same as clone grades, removed in December. What did they add? NOTHING. They were an ISK sink, nothing more. The mechanic wasn't fun, challenging or interesting. It was just something you had to click through and sink ISK into when you got podded. Just busy work, unnecessary complexity.

"Wasteful to spin unnecessary adaptations. Complexity bad. " -Abathur


They add another way to gain an advantage over players with lesser dedication.
Raquel Smith
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#456 - 2015-02-01 21:30:08 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:

i'd have a look at what level implants the largest proportion of characters have equipped. if, for example, a huge number of characters have +3 implants, i think that'd indicate that the price:benefit ratio made these a must-fit, and that the price:benefit of +4s was at a nicer spot in comparison

since i don't like must-fits, i'd take action to remove the 'must' bit. i'd then make +4s into +1s, leave them where they are in terms of rarity, sit back and see what happens


That's the point, what is the reality of the situation?

I will bet a large number of the placard-waving "implants must go" crowd inserted +5s in their first week, and have never let go (a lass above literally said that was the case for her), but how many people truly do this? How many people have ever injected a +5? Bear in mind the Cybernetics requirement might mean some characters physically can't (in fact, thats an interesting and easily figured stat for CCP, what % of characters has Cybernetics 5?) And how long do the players who have a +5 clone actually spend in it? Ask the same for +4's, even +3's (given the free Genvolutions that got handed out, this will likely be a high %, but even then, how many owners spend what % of time wearing them). In fact, how many characters have never worn an implant outside the occasional +1s and +2s that came from a mission reward? (or not even that much, again an easy stat to discover, what percentage of characters do not even have Cybernetics injected at all?)


My character is coming up on nine years old. I've had +5 implants in my head literally for years. I typically use learning implants no matter where I am in the universe. Ever since flying in AT IX I've had the same set of 5% implants alongside the +5 implants. When I JC to null I am in a lower set of learning implants, whatever is available on market, usually. I log out in +5 implants and conduct most of my activities in +5 implants as well.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#457 - 2015-02-01 23:11:47 UTC
CCP is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#458 - 2015-02-01 23:54:22 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed?

Wouldn't you just spend your money on hardwirings instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat?

Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases?

I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.


Most of the people that I fly with (and also most that I have podded) have no implants or very cheap ones. They would rather train slower than risk isk losing their pod. If learning implants were removed then they still wouldn't risk isk on their pod.

I personally fly with the +4's for whatever I am training. I also toss in some fitting or combat implants on as well. I would say I would probably end up filling the implant slots with something else if there were no learning implants.

I have never once put a +5 in my head nor have I ever felt the need to. I also don't bother jump cloning to avoid losing my implants. I am not podded much even though I am in fights every day, so the cost to replace the two +4's is not an issue for me.

Because of the diminishing returns on the higher implants, New players don't really need +5's anyway. They can save isk and time training cyber V just getting a couple of +3's and still train plenty fast if they want to.

SO:

RIght now we have a a few choices:

1) Have no implants and save isk when podded
2) Have learning implants and train faster but don't gain combat ability from those slots
3) Put combat implants in those slots and train slower.
4) do some combination of the other choices.

I am for keeping the learning implants. There is plenty of choice involved with using them, (risk/reward/combat/not combat,etc) and you are not forced to have them (and many people don't). Removing interesting choices is not where the game should be going.
Diemos Hiaraki
Septentrion
#459 - 2015-02-02 00:11:53 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Am I the only one who is sick and tired of, 'but think about the noobs'?

We were all noobs once, we learned a bit, made some mistakes, learned some more, made more mistakes etc.

If Eve was so easy for noobs to grasp and understand in its entirety very quickly, I dare say most of us here would quit.


When you started there was only a few years to catch up on, not a decade. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but still your character is nearly eight years old so....am I the only one who thinks what you've just said is really conceited?
Raymond Moons
Parallactic Veil
#460 - 2015-02-02 00:19:22 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
people accept risk in this pvp centric MMO where consequences can be harsh?


I'm not on the team that brought this question up with the CSM, but I do have a question for you.

If your practice, normally, is to spend, say, 50 million ISK for a pod full of implants today, why would that not be your practice tomorrow, if learning implants were to be removed?

Wouldn't you just spend your money on hardwirings instead, and maybe get an even larger edge in combat?

Or, is your concern that learning implants would be viewed by the average player as inherently more valuable than non-learning-implants, so their willingness to spend on their pod decreases?

I ask because it's not evident to me that making skill training speed independent of implants will somehow reduce the overall average value of a pod, or the average risk that a player is willing to take on its contents.


The reward from learning implants is continuous, even when not logged in. Hardwiring for performance is only useful occassionally, so the value of learning implants is far greater than that of hardwiring even if the isk cost of the implants is the same.

The other problem with hardwiring is that the bonusses are not useful for every ship and we can't keep a dozen different pods in the same station to change between like we can with our ships.

Removing the learning implants is a good idea for PvPer's, and for the people that can never afford the most expensive implants but it also penalises those that have them already (since they accumulate SP faster than everyone else).


I don't think removing the learning implants will make people less risk averse or encourage them to spend isk on alternative implants of equal cost. Please remove them though because I am too tight to buy +5's, and my PvP character who started out at a 3 mil sp deficit to my main is now nearly 7 mil sp behind!