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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2961 - 2014-12-13 04:53:55 UTC
Otto Jaeger
Black.Hole.Sun
#2962 - 2014-12-16 15:59:53 UTC
Bumpity bump.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#2963 - 2014-12-17 02:27:54 UTC
Just in case people missed this post over here.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2964 - 2014-12-19 23:51:43 UTC
That survey is



useless



in regard to the problems that have plagued POSes for the longest time

not to sound like a sour puss or anything, its just that the questions weren't really relevant to the issues, and then trying to get us to say what is working right? or compare POSes to sov is just a waste.


so, with that said


BUMP!!!

Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2965 - 2014-12-20 06:49:51 UTC
I agree. That survey asked questions which weren't even close to how we "interact" with structures.

POS's need a revamp .... roles need to be fixed ..... its just so "ugh".

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Frying Doom
#2966 - 2014-12-22 03:36:58 UTC
Two Steps post is dated 17th of January 2013, it is now December 2014 and all CCP have done is talk.

This problem has been around for a very long time, we have been told time and again that it will be fixed and all we ever get is talk. Now you get a survey to go with the talking.

CCP had a great game on its hands will in front of anything else and what did they do, blow the cash on developing other games that never went any where.

Glad I stopped paying for this game a few years ago.

Well those that remain, have fun.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#2967 - 2015-01-18 22:16:26 UTC
And happy birthday thread.

2 years have now gone by.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2968 - 2015-01-19 15:08:29 UTC
Bump.



Why?

Because CCP still needs to see that we have an issue that needs to be fixed, not new releases every few weeks.


Ask not what your corp roles can do, ask what CCP will do to fix them.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2969 - 2015-01-19 17:07:41 UTC
POS haven't been forgotten.

They're on the schedule to be looked at.

(I run a large POS. I'm not forgetting about this.)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Arkumord Churhee
Nice Try.
#2970 - 2015-01-20 05:08:37 UTC
Is this thread still valid?

In that case, take my bump. Needs to be reworked.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2971 - 2015-01-21 18:01:15 UTC
a bump from me as well

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Frying Doom
#2972 - 2015-01-23 05:10:55 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
POS haven't been forgotten.

They're on the schedule to be looked at.

(I run a large POS. I'm not forgetting about this.)

Oh Steve that has to be one of the funniest statements I have ever heard.

They like corporate roles have been on schedule to be looked at for, hell so long it really does not matter any more.

There have been so many times that it has been promised to be fixed, CCP makes politicians sound honest.

Lets be blunt, it will never happen, they will talk and talk and talk, oh and then they will promise, then explain why they have to break that promise and then talk and talk and talk some more. And just like the creation of this thread shows, when it comes to breaking the promise CCP will use the CSM as a bus road bump.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2973 - 2015-01-23 07:13:45 UTC
are you still here Straight
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2974 - 2015-01-23 14:23:06 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
POS haven't been forgotten.

They're on the schedule to be looked at.

(I run a large POS. I'm not forgetting about this.)

Oh Steve that has to be one of the funniest statements I have ever heard.

They like corporate roles have been on schedule to be looked at for, hell so long it really does not matter any more.

There have been so many times that it has been promised to be fixed, CCP makes politicians sound honest.

Lets be blunt, it will never happen, they will talk and talk and talk, oh and then they will promise, then explain why they have to break that promise and then talk and talk and talk some more. And just like the creation of this thread shows, when it comes to breaking the promise CCP will use the CSM as a bus road bump.



Something to remember:

I'm not PR for CCP. I have a better idea of what CCP is working on than a regular player.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2975 - 2015-01-29 15:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Something to remember:

I'm not PR for CCP. I have a better idea of what CCP is working on than a regular player.


As a member of the CSM it would be a tragedy if you didn't. (not berating you, just acknowledging your statement)
Let me pose a question to you that you might carry forward with it wrapped in this little bit of historical perspective.

When asked (on my alliance leader main) where I see the alliance heading and what I envision us doing in the future, one of the main parts of my answer to that question is the player built gates and opening a new system to go explore with the hopes of finding new resources, new factions/races/anoms/ect.

How are we supposed to do that when no one can even figure out how to open the door to their Captain's quarters yet and it has been years that people have tried?

My point comes from working at a company for 7-ish years or so where we as employees would see changes and additions made that included new projects and stuff while simple things like typos on the site that had been reported numerous times were left and even carried forward into new revisions of the site, links that didn't work, or setup scripts that didn't work as stated, all left in broken or partially working states in order to boldly go (stumble) forward with "new content"

CCP is not the first place that I've seen this type of behavior at, my current boos gets scatter-brained too and I am not scared to tell him "let's get this done first, then we'll knock that out"

Leaving something half done, no matter why always has a tendency to cause issues down the line as is the case with anything, whether it is legacy code, half working scripts, typos that continue to carry forward or whatever.

I have no doubt that CCP has people smart enough to address the issues of POSes and their legacy code, I also understand that player attraction, player retention, and avoiding folks having the feeling that "stale" content is all there is, are important, so it begs to question why the stale (almost decade old) issues with POSes isn't being addressed and gotten out of the way aggressively.

thanks for reading.
o/
Celly

and of course "BUMP"

PS. for those who are going to say "the door will never open", "walking in stations is dead" ect ect, I already know that, it was just an analogy :)

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2976 - 2015-01-29 17:56:35 UTC
Celly S wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Something to remember:

I'm not PR for CCP. I have a better idea of what CCP is working on than a regular player.


As a member of the CSM it would be a tragedy if you didn't. (not berating you, just acknowledging your statement)
Let me pose a question to you that you might carry forward with it wrapped in this little bit of historical perspective.

When asked (on my alliance leader main) where I see the alliance heading and what I envision us doing in the future, one of the main parts of my answer to that question is the player built gates and opening a new system to go explore with the hopes of finding new resources, new factions/races/anoms/ect.

How are we supposed to do that when no one can even figure out how to open the door to their Captain's quarters yet and it has been years that people have tried?

My point comes from working at a company for 7-ish years or so where we as employees would see changes and additions made that included new projects and stuff while simple things like typos on the site that had been reported numerous times were left and even carried forward into new revisions of the site, links that didn't work, or setup scripts that didn't work as stated, all left in broken or partially working states in order to boldly go (stumble) forward with "new content"

CCP is not the first place that I've seen this type of behavior at, my current boos gets scatter-brained too and I am not scared to tell him "let's get this done first, then we'll knock that out"

Leaving something half done, no matter why always has a tendency to cause issues down the line as is the case with anything, whether it is legacy code, half working scripts, typos that continue to carry forward or whatever.

I have no doubt that CCP has people smart enough to address the issues of POSes and their legacy code, I also understand that player attraction, player retention, and avoiding folks having the feeling that "stale" content is all there is, are important, so it begs to question why the stale (almost decade old) issues with POSes isn't being addressed and gotten out of the way aggressively.

thanks for reading.
o/
Celly

and of course "BUMP"

PS. for those who are going to say "the door will never open", "walking in stations is dead" ect ect, I already know that, it was just an analogy :)

the problem with POS's si that they dont have their own code, their code is tied into several other mechanics, mainly the corp functions, so its not so much as POS's are going to just be reworked, they have to be completely removed from the game and reintroduced as a new feature

so CCP has to be careful, and as a grace period have to find a way to have both current and new mechanics operating simultaneously so people dont just log on one day to find every POS gone or messed up beyond repair

that coupled with the fact that POS are some of the oldest code in the game, noen of the devs who worked on it are still at CCP, and they left NO documentation/notes

all in all, CCP have to figure out what does what first, before they can even start, to avoid screwing up other parts of the game

that and coupled with the fact that the actual teams qualified to work on that code is relatively small, it takes time

POS ARE ON THE LIST, the 5 sections of legacy code that have to be gutted out before the new space/mechanics are put in, and these have to be done in a specific order, like peeling an onion, untie SOV from current corp mechanics into a new system, then untie corp from POS, then redo POS, or something to that effect
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2977 - 2015-01-29 19:59:05 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

Wrote allot of good and true stuff that everyone already knows while missing the entire point of my previous post


My point was, why continue to pile new thing on top of new thing instead of fixing stuff they have known for years is wrong.

and please, don't take this reply as some sort of beratement to you because its not, its simply that the very points you make are why CCP needs to work on "that" aspect of stuff first before breaking their necks to continue giving us "new content".

TL;DNR
Why continue avoiding something that they know has to be fixed when it is clear that they have people with the smarts to do it?

everything else is just excuses in the view of most of us "bitter vets" who have dealt with this for far too long now.


I do of course appreciate the reply nonetheless because at minimum, its a bump for the thread.

o/
Cindy


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2978 - 2015-01-29 20:20:08 UTC
Celly S wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

Wrote allot of good and true stuff that everyone already knows while missing the entire point of my previous post


My point was, why continue to pile new thing on top of new thing instead of fixing stuff they have known for years is wrong.

and please, don't take this reply as some sort of beratement to you because its not, its simply that the very points you make are why CCP needs to work on "that" aspect of stuff first before breaking their necks to continue giving us "new content".

TL;DNR
Why continue avoiding something that they know has to be fixed when it is clear that they have people with the smarts to do it?

everything else is just excuses in the view of most of us "bitter vets" who have dealt with this for far too long now.


I do of course appreciate the reply nonetheless because at minimum, its a bump for the thread.

o/
Cindy



because there entire team CANNOT be set to one task, there is such a thing as too many people, there is an OPTIMAL amount of workforce for every task. If you have too many people working on the same task, they get bogged down in communication to find out whos changed what and how everyone else needs to change what they did because of it, which is slower than having 2-3 people who are in constant communication and can work through the project block by block.

so what do they do with the extra hands/developers? put them on other projects.

thats why CCP has like 15 development teams, each specializing in a different project, because they are each more familiar with a different part of the code, and each have an optimal work force to balance out coding and communication.


As a non-coding example, McDonalds usually has 5 or so people assigned per restaurant, this is a good number because each person can man their station and accomplish their specific task without interference, and can communicate their progress with the rest of the workgroup so that each piece of the meal is made correctly and on time so that nothing gets cold or holds up the order.

Now could they possible get food out faster with 10-15 people? yes, but the chances of orders being wrong, filled twice, or incomplete increases because everyone is too busy trying to figure out what everyone else is doing.

(too lazy to retype it out, but a better example would have probably been a kitchen rather than a fast food restauarant)
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2979 - 2015-01-29 23:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

because there entire team CANNOT be set to one task, there is such a thing as too many people, there is an OPTIMAL amount of workforce for every task. If you have too many people working on the same task, they get bogged down in communication to find out whos changed what and how everyone else needs to change what they did because of it, which is slower than having 2-3 people who are in constant communication and can work through the project block by block.

so what do they do with the extra hands/developers? put them on other projects.

thats why CCP has like 15 development teams, each specializing in a different project, because they are each more familiar with a different part of the code, and each have an optimal work force to balance out coding and communication.


As a non-coding example, McDonalds usually has 5 or so people assigned per restaurant, this is a good number because each person can man their station and accomplish their specific task without interference, and can communicate their progress with the rest of the workgroup so that each piece of the meal is made correctly and on time so that nothing gets cold or holds up the order.

Now could they possible get food out faster with 10-15 people? yes, but the chances of orders being wrong, filled twice, or incomplete increases because everyone is too busy trying to figure out what everyone else is doing.

(too lazy to retype it out, but a better example would have probably been a kitchen rather than a fast food restauarant)


I get what you're saying, however almost no one has asked for the entire team to be on fixing POS code.

to use your own example (even though there is a kitchen in McDonald's LOL)
if you make a double meat burger and one piece of the meat is old and taste funky, then the entirety of the burger will leave a bad taste in your mouth (please forgive the play on words) and all of the ingredients will be tainted by the bad meat.

Wouldn't it then make sense to get good meat while the rest of the folks are preparing the buns, sauce, pickles, lettuce, tomato, ect ect ect?

I mean, yeah, the other 4 people (and our Mc Donalds down the street keeps way more than 5 people in there, but, i will use your numbers) might have to wait a few seconds to a minute longer, but, when they give the burger to the customer, he/she won't be bringing it back because its "just not right"

o/
Celly

Also, not sure why I typed Cindy earlier, but she will get a laugh when I tell her that right after she called me, I signed a post as her LOL


and yeah, sometimes rewriting things sucks.

As an aside to this discussion, we're not talking about a recent development either, this is something that has been going on for the better part of 10 years, so even putting 1 team on it over that period of time could have rewritten the entire thing from scratch and figured out the reach of the old code. :)

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2980 - 2015-01-30 13:12:22 UTC
Celly S wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

because there entire team CANNOT be set to one task, there is such a thing as too many people, there is an OPTIMAL amount of workforce for every task. If you have too many people working on the same task, they get bogged down in communication to find out whos changed what and how everyone else needs to change what they did because of it, which is slower than having 2-3 people who are in constant communication and can work through the project block by block.

so what do they do with the extra hands/developers? put them on other projects.

thats why CCP has like 15 development teams, each specializing in a different project, because they are each more familiar with a different part of the code, and each have an optimal work force to balance out coding and communication.


As a non-coding example, McDonalds usually has 5 or so people assigned per restaurant, this is a good number because each person can man their station and accomplish their specific task without interference, and can communicate their progress with the rest of the workgroup so that each piece of the meal is made correctly and on time so that nothing gets cold or holds up the order.

Now could they possible get food out faster with 10-15 people? yes, but the chances of orders being wrong, filled twice, or incomplete increases because everyone is too busy trying to figure out what everyone else is doing.

(too lazy to retype it out, but a better example would have probably been a kitchen rather than a fast food restauarant)


I get what you're saying, however almost no one has asked for the entire team to be on fixing POS code.

to use your own example (even though there is a kitchen in McDonald's LOL)
if you make a double meat burger and one piece of the meat is old and taste funky, then the entirety of the burger will leave a bad taste in your mouth (please forgive the play on words) and all of the ingredients will be tainted by the bad meat.

Wouldn't it then make sense to get good meat while the rest of the folks are preparing the buns, sauce, pickles, lettuce, tomato, ect ect ect?

I mean, yeah, the other 4 people (and our Mc Donalds down the street keeps way more than 5 people in there, but, i will use your numbers) might have to wait a few seconds to a minute longer, but, when they give the burger to the customer, he/she won't be bringing it back because its "just not right"

o/
Celly

Also, not sure why I typed Cindy earlier, but she will get a laugh when I tell her that right after she called me, I signed a post as her LOL


and yeah, sometimes rewriting things sucks.

As an aside to this discussion, we're not talking about a recent development either, this is something that has been going on for the better part of 10 years, so even putting 1 team on it over that period of time could have rewritten the entire thing from scratch and figured out the reach of the old code. :)

1) it ahsnt been worked on in the last 10 years because it wasnt "old stuff" for the whole 10 years, it was just "the stuff". plus CCP was on a "new things get more players than fixing old" attitude which they have recently fixed

as for the analogy, theres a difference between burgers and business. A burger is all or nothing, were talking pieces that work together independently but cohesively for an end result

and again, they do it piece by piece with a smaller team in a specific order, because thats how code works. if you have a bunch of people writing different parts, the chances of one person coding in a way that makes it imcompatible with the other developer's projects then all the time for that project is wasted and has to be redone, and with more people you either trust theyll magicall know what your coding and code appropriately, or you spend more time reviewing everyone else's projects than actually coding and it takes longer than the small groups going through steps anyways.

Im in college for programming, Ive had to work on large projects designing programs. Even for the same end result, working with a handful of other people and blocking out the tasks into priorities, is INFINITELY easier than having the entire class of 30 coding the same thing and saying "okay guys, have at it, and well see what everyones done and what works, then go back and redo the stuff coded wrong, then revise our design to accomodate stuff we cant do because of incompatibility, then recode those sections because we didnt anticipate this because we didnt see the early stages finished first, oh **** its ue already crap we failed the class"