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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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To CCP, the CSM, the CPM and my beloved friends in game.

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Author
Cassandra Skjem
Big Sister Exploration
#21 - 2015-01-29 02:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Skjem
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Cassandra Skjem wrote:

Why should you not be making friends? Why should I be locked out of a C6 because I can't fly a dread, carrier or T3? Why why why, can't a player making money off the planets put the isk they are making off them put it into defending them? Huh?

You aren't locked out of a C6.
Friends is irrelevant to the fact of a different game.
Putting isk & time into defending PI is irrelevant to the fact of a different game.

Like I said above, if it can mess with your EVE game directly, then you need to be able to solve it through EVE 'if' you chose to.
There is nothing wrong with multiple options some of which use contracts to Dust as a solution, but you should have the option to for example, go to your PI, and defend it from space with orbital bombardments and shooting down their space side of the raid also.

Sorry I missed your comment. CCP announced with Legion that they would tie Eve accounts (was the plan) to the Legion part of new eden, all on the same server and on the same account. It seems to me like this is something that would all be part of the same universe, accessible to all pilots and mercs alike under one sub and all at the same sub fee. If I as a merc want someone to drop an OB for me as it stands right now, they have to be a part of my corporation or alliance. This pilot is at the mercy of whomever can catch him due to these strikes being limited to LS alone. Now if that pilot is also playing Dust at the time he has no way to defend himself, never mind the fact he needs orbital ammo which doesn't do squat to a null bear roaming through. As you say, pilots should be able to defend but so then should mercs be allowed to go and defend themselves, because if they are the second class citizens of new eden getting used as a punching bag with no recourse why play?

Friends are always relevant, in fact if null bear A is having his PI ransacked maybe one of his friends is part of a dust corp that can come assist for a price, heck thats how eve works right?

Is it a tarp?

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#22 - 2015-01-29 02:51:12 UTC
IF, DUST lasts and continues to at least grow, then a few ideas i was pondering came up. Use pre-existing mechanics but introduce DUST players to make it more random.

Example:

The newly made POS siphon deployable that draws PI away from the POS. So instead of making it, its own standalone, automated deal, change it.

Call it a beacon, skirmish, orbital drop party, whatever. The name isn't important. Anchor it outside the POS, and this creates a zone where a DUST match can begin. This fight affects only a small portion of the available PI in the POS, about the same as the siphon.

So, how does DUST intertwine from there? Well the rough idea would be something like this:

DUST players have 2 sides. The defense (hired mercs) and offense (mercs hired by the one dropping the beacon). If no defense is mounted by opposing side, then siphon acts like it does now. Automated, free PI (maybe even at a slightly higher than current rate, to actually make it annoying).

If the owner of the POS hires merc's, then a fight becomes eligible. Should be a standard DUST affair (maybe new levels, since its a moon) from there. If defense wins, no PI lost, and hired defensive merc's make extra isk (maybe set amount from person who hires them). If offense wins, they win the PI and isk.

So maybe the defense contract would be something like:

5m contract split between players
if they win, extra 250k each (or something, i don't know DUST economy and prices)

Prices and such are changeable, i'm using the numbers very loosely to mainly illustrate the idea.

This doesn't change anything about indy/POS that isn't already happening now. But you can pre-preemptively hire a DUST squad to defend your POS. If someone drops a beacon when you're logged out, your hired squad can defend and prevent you losing any PI (if they win). If they lose, oh well, then you lost alil PI, just like what a siphon would do anyway (assuming the owner scoops the loot before you log in).

Its relatively cheap for EVE players to defend that POS in a new way, and might make it more worthwhile for DUST players, since they feel like they're accomplishing something, rather than a grindfest.

Anyway, was just a rough idea. I generally agree with the other's sentiment though. The EVE players needs to have just as much control of their own stuff, that has spent days/weeks/months setting up, to not have it destroyed or radically changed after a single DUST game, that they have no control over. Quite possibly when they aren't even logged in.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#23 - 2015-01-29 03:05:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Lets see...

PI being attacked. Response: Hire Mercs. Pay mercs. Outfit mercs in best available gear.

Outcome: Your mercs lose, your PI is destroyed/halted.

WTF? An attack came, I responded in the best way available to me, and I still lost?

The idea that you can do absolutely everything you can from ingame, up to and including hiring mercs and supplying them with top of the line gear, only to lose your stuff despite doing everything you or anyone else can possibly do within the confines of EVE, regardless of your resources...

Is a ******* terrible idea.

Unless of course I can pay a few mil extra to a third party to go full Rolling Thunder on the enemy spawn point, so that they die as soon as they spawn over and over and over again.

Let's see how much they enjoy losing their objectives with no ability to prevent their enemy from stopping them.

TLDR: I fully support DUST or Legion making absolutely no significant impact on my EVE game. I do not like FPS's, I do not play FPS's, I do not know anyone who plays DUST, and I refuse to be beholden to people who don't even play eve to keep my EVE holdings intact.
Cassandra Skjem
Big Sister Exploration
#24 - 2015-01-29 03:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Skjem
Anhenka wrote:
Lets see...

PI being attacked. Response: Hire Mercs. Pay mercs. Outfit mercs in best available gear.

Outcome: Your mercs lose, your PI is destroyed/halted.

WTF? An attack came, I responded in the best way available to me, and I still lost?

The idea that you can do absolutely everything you can from ingame, up to and including hiring mercs and supplying them with top of the line gear, only to lose your stuff despite doing everything you or anyone else can possibly do within the confines of EVE, regardless of your resources...

Is a ******* terrible idea.

Unless of course I can pay a few mil extra to a third party to go full Rolling Thunder on the enemy spawn point, so that they die as soon as they spawn over and over and over again.

Let's see how much they enjoy losing their objectives with no ability to prevent their enemy from stopping them.

Reminds me of a battle in BR-5...wherever that was and alot of interesting stuff that happens in eve...so your passive isk isn't working? What to do, what to do? Moon Goo is a terrible idea too, but everyone lives with ~80% of the good stuff being in one area of space controlled by a strong alliance...what to do. Hmm? Maybe you hired the wrong mercs? Seems to me like the "planetary colonies" would be a merc's home stomping grounds no? Maybe they should have control of it.

I realize how much this sounds like I want to take PI away, and I really don't but honestly it is a broken system that the Yulai Accord really sounds like it is there to prevent, and I know people argue PI is a renewable resource not a finite material like ore but I see little difference considering how extractors are deployed.

Is it a tarp?

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#25 - 2015-01-29 03:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Anhenka wrote:
Lets see...

WTF? An attack came, I responded in the best way available to me, and I still lost?

The idea that you can do absolutely everything you can from ingame, up to and including hiring mercs and supplying them with top of the line gear, only to lose your stuff despite doing everything you or anyone else can possibly do within the confines of EVE, regardless of your resources...


...already happens to people in EVE. People still lose, even if they've done everything they can.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#26 - 2015-01-29 03:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Lets see...

WTF? An attack came, I responded in the best way available to me, and I still lost?

The idea that you can do absolutely everything you can from ingame, up to and including hiring mercs and supplying them with top of the line gear, only to lose your stuff despite doing everything you or anyone else can possibly do within the confines of EVE, regardless of your resources...


...already happens to people in EVE. People still lose, even if they've done everything they can.


See the "Or anyone else ingame" bit? That includes such options as everyone else in the game showing up to kick the other guy for no reason, or the other guys being distracted by something shiny. I'm not concerned with EVE vs EVE or Dust vs Dust being horribly one sided, that's part of the game. Sometimes the enemies arrayed against you are so dedicated or stubborn or large, that their victory is certain.

But nothing you can do in EVE can ensure you not lose a critical Dust match. No amount of Isk or EVE friends can ensure victory in a scheduled, X v X match. If all the Goons and all the N3 and all the Russians banded together in an attempt to not lose a DUST match where a planet is being attacked by some random console pubbies who don't have any interest in EVE, the absolute best they could do is outfit the defenders, be ready if orbital strikes are possible, and pray.

To me, that's bullshit.

P.S I do not do PI. I do no industry beyond building faction ships from BPCs I get while ratting. I do absolutely nothing that would be directly effected by this, I just think it's absolutely ridiculous.
Cassandra Skjem
Big Sister Exploration
#27 - 2015-01-29 05:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Skjem
Anhenka wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Lets see...

WTF? An attack came, I responded in the best way available to me, and I still lost?

The idea that you can do absolutely everything you can from ingame, up to and including hiring mercs and supplying them with top of the line gear, only to lose your stuff despite doing everything you or anyone else can possibly do within the confines of EVE, regardless of your resources...


...already happens to people in EVE. People still lose, even if they've done everything they can.


See the "Or anyone else ingame" bit? That includes such options as everyone else in the game showing up to kick the other guy for no reason, or the other guys being distracted by something shiny. I'm not concerned with EVE vs EVE or Dust vs Dust being horribly one sided, that's part of the game. Sometimes the enemies arrayed against you are so dedicated or stubborn or large, that their victory is certain.

But nothing you can do in EVE can ensure you not lose a critical Dust match. No amount of Isk or EVE friends can ensure victory in a scheduled, X v X match. If all the Goons and all the N3 and all the Russians banded together in an attempt to not lose a DUST match where a planet is being attacked by some random console pubbies who don't have any interest in EVE, the absolute best they could do is outfit the defenders, be ready if orbital strikes are possible, and pray.

To me, that's bullshit.

P.S I do not do PI. I do no industry beyond building faction ships from BPCs I get while ratting. I do absolutely nothing that would be directly effected by this, I just think it's absolutely ridiculous.

Well I think you missed the rest of the posts buddy, check the post by the Dust player, all they are suggesting is more interaction within the Eve universe and a merging of the 2 games rather than leaving them as separate as they are. The PI interaction was a suggestion by me, one that obviously is a hot and contentious subject. The thing is it doesn't make sense to leave mercs with no recourse against EVE pilots, this is a suggestion to provoke responses of all sorts, wouldn't you care if you did PI who the best team was to hire? What the politics of the bunnies were? Who is dependable and who isn't? Kind of like if you want a corp to wardec a highsec corp you are gonna want the marmites to do it because they have control or can take control of the access routes to market hubs.

I believe both games should have meaning to the other. This whole thread is not about PI but rather interaction that is missing between Eve and Dust. The Dust merc has even gone so far as to suggest it be on PC not on the console as it is now. Not F2P but subscription based.

Is it a tarp?

Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#28 - 2015-01-29 06:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Cassandra Skjem wrote:
Wouldn't you care if you did PI who the best team was to hire? What the politics of the bunnies were? Who is dependable and who isn't? Kind of like if you want a corp to wardec a highsec corp you are gonna want the marmites to do it because they have control or can take control of the access routes to market hubs.

I believe both games should have meaning to the other. This whole thread is not about PI but rather interaction that is missing between Eve and Dust. The Dust merc has even gone so far as to suggest it be on PC not on the console as it is now. Not F2P but subscription based.


No. I care nothing for the politics of bunnies, or of highsec wardec corps. Mercs are paid on slight retainer to to a job, then bonuses dependent on how well they do it. Their personal beliefs are irrelevant to me, for they are only a tool.

I believe that the games should have meaning to each other, but that the actions of Dust Bunnies should never significantly inhibit, prevent, stop, or damage an EVE players holdings.

Maybe Dusties could fight over a section of POCO tax so that victory mean reduction or exemption from NPC taxation, or a reduction in industry costs, or Valk could be used to accelerate increases of FW changes, or increase military or industrial indexes in nullsec.

I am fully against DUST or Valk stopping, damaging, or directly reducing any players SOV, PI, POS, Markets, Contracts, Local, the abilities of ships, or system upgrades.

Dust and Valk should be tools that can contribute to the well-being of an EVE group or individual, not through causing significant grief to another group, but primarily through effects that assist your own faction. Small influences like siphoning part of a POCO's Export Tax or ESS bonus would be acceptable though, as long as it did not impose a prohibitive penalty.
Cassandra Skjem
Big Sister Exploration
#29 - 2015-01-29 06:17:56 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Cassandra Skjem wrote:
Wouldn't you care if you did PI who the best team was to hire? What the politics of the bunnies were? Who is dependable and who isn't? Kind of like if you want a corp to wardec a highsec corp you are gonna want the marmites to do it because they have control or can take control of the access routes to market hubs.

I believe both games should have meaning to the other. This whole thread is not about PI but rather interaction that is missing between Eve and Dust. The Dust merc has even gone so far as to suggest it be on PC not on the console as it is now. Not F2P but subscription based.


No. I care nothing for the politics of bunnies, or of highsec wardec corps. Mercs are paid on slight retainer to to a job, then bonuses dependent on how well they do it. Their personal beliefs are irrelevant to me, for they are only a tool.

I believe that the games should have meaning to each other, but that the actions of Dust Bunnies should never significantly inhibit, prevent, stop, or damage an EVE players holdings.

Maybe Dusties could fight over a section of POCO tax so that victory mean reduction or exemption from NPC taxation, or a reduction in industry costs, or Valk could be used to accelerate increases of FW changes, or increase military or industrial indexes in nullsec.

I am fully against DUST or Valk stopping, damaging, or directly reducing any players SOV, PI, POS, Markets, Contracts, Local, the abilities of ships, or system upgrades.

Dust and Valk should be tools that can contribute to the well-being of an EVE group or individual, not through causing significant grief to another group, but primarily through effects that assist your own faction. Small influences like siphoning part of a POCO's Export Tax or ESS bonus would be acceptable though, as long as it did not impose a prohibitive penalty.

I am fully against Dust/Legion players having no recourse against Eve pilots who make it their burden to grief and attack their support fleets or pilots in Eve (yes eve pilots working side by side with them) and yet this is currently the case. This isn't about striking back though but having greater influence in New Eden to both support Eve pilots and to be a worthwhile addition to any Eve cause. Hell I would welcome Valkyrie pilots flying with me in a fleet engagement, they would likely have more control over their ships and be a bigger asset, but that is not what this is about.

Being afraid of change is ok though and you are entitled to be narrow in your thinking, but I really feel this limits the gameplay. All those planets with nothing but extractors on their surfaces. Sure makes me wonder why I heard pilots asking for planetary development shortly before Dust was announced and now people are all up in arms about it.

Is it a tarp?

Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#30 - 2015-01-29 06:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Cassandra Skjem wrote:
Sure makes me wonder why I heard pilots asking for planetary development shortly before Dust was announced and now people are all up in arms about it.


Because people were asking for planetary development for EVE. Not for planetary development that can be held hostage by console players, or even PC Valk/Legion players.

Integration should have benefits for everyone involved. Not motivated by penalties for the loser. Through attempts to create greater integration, so many DUST advocates support things that try to promote DUST by making losing a DUST match have significant penalties to the loser.

But as many people know, negative reinforcement is a really **** motivation for getting involved. If you want people to get involved in DUST, introduce benefits for controlling things through DUST/VALK, but not massive penalties other than losing control of the bonus for losing a match.

Some potentials benefits of controlling an area through DUST/Legion/Valk could include:

Reduced NPC POCO tax in highsec/(lowsec if it has NPC tax)
Increased POCO yield at planets where you have both control and the POCO
Siphoning part of a non owned POCO's Export Tax revenue.
Increasing or decreasing the rate at which military/industrial/strategic indexes increase in nullsec
Control rate increases in FW space if the system is held by allied forces
Decreased job installation costs when holding enough localized space
Increasing bonus from ESS's when the area is help by freindly forces.

Just a few examples.

But the long story short is that things like crippling PI on a loss does nothing to get EVE players actively involved in DUST other than attempting to hire defenders and pissing off EVE players. Same with all other "lose and _____ penalty" effects.

The stick is a ****** motivator, if you want EVE involvement, you show them the carrot for getting involved.

Sorry if this contradicts your tightly held desire to go around razing PI setups to the ground while cackling maniacally and annoying people.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#31 - 2015-01-29 07:13:11 UTC
Quote:

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Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.



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Senior Lead

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