These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

[Ship] Procurer/Skiff and their drones
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#1 - 2015-01-28 13:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
My first writing of the idea was not clear, this is the second try, shorter and without useless infos :

Since ORE ship are very specialized ships in mining ore, with not give to the 2 ore ship with better drone bay and bonus to drone damage some bonus to drone mining yield too (be it a fixed role bonus or a mining barge/exhumer skill bonus) ?

To not make the procurer/skiff step on the yield of the bigger ship like the retriever/mackinaw and procurer/hulk, reducing the role bonus of the yield to something like 130% could be enough I think, depending of the bonus given to the drones and taking into account the travel time of the drones.

I propose this because I don't think a miner have another way than putting tank on the smallest barge, except a survey scanner there is nothing that a miner would like to put in his 4/5 medium slot, with my change, miners could want to put some Drone navigation computer instead of tank, so new yield vs risk thing.

TL ; DR : this change is not about a new module nor ship, just a change to the drone bonus of the Procurer and Skiff, involving new ways for miners to trade tank for yield.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Lugh Crow-Slave
#2 - 2015-01-28 13:48:53 UTC
so you state that fit right there are already ships that can use drones to mine as fast as a proc but you wan't to remove defenses from the proc/skiff so they can also do it with drones and limit player choice?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#3 - 2015-01-28 14:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so you state that fit right there are already ships that can use drones to mine as fast as a proc but you wan't to remove defenses from the proc/skiff so they can also do it with drones and limit player choice?


Giving a choice would be better, but I don't really see how this would be possible without adding a new ship, and we already had new ORE ships recently. And even if these cruisers have a similar yield with drones than procurer, they have a way smaller cargohold and a tiny CPU compared to procurer yield+tank wise, so not really the same thing.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Leyete Wulf
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-01-28 14:46:31 UTC
I'm not seeing where you're proposing a positive change to the game. It's not like we're seeing a proliferation of drone-bonused mining ships in combat fleets or anything, and the procurer/skiff are not over-tanked, they still die very well.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#5 - 2015-01-28 14:55:00 UTC
Leyete Wulf wrote:
I'm not seeing where you're proposing a positive change to the game. It's not like we're seeing a proliferation of drone-bonused mining ships in combat fleets or anything, and the procurer/skiff are not over-tanked, they still die very well.


I don't think skiff are op in any way but still they can dish out a surprising amount of dps for their role, I just want to propose a other real choice of mining other than modulated strip miner, not a "better" way of mining. Knowing how to fly a barge/exhumer include being able to use drones, so why not making mining drones not just a little bonus in the total yield ?

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-01-28 15:06:18 UTC
I asked CCp Fozzie for the Skiff/Procurer to get a mining bonus also, the reason it didn't get one was because with it, it would begin to rival the Mackinaw/Retriever in terms of yield.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#7 - 2015-01-28 15:16:43 UTC
I like the drone damage bonus on the skiff. I came across a mining gang a few months back. They had a gnosis on scan w/ them. I thought "SWEEET" and warped in w/ my stratios to take my pick. The gnosis came at me and w/ the assisted drones popped me quickly.

The gaggle of skiffs stayed on task and the gnosis was able to protect them. It was good to a mining fleet that both could and would stand it's ground.

Things I didn't like were the crutch of local telling them I was a solo player and I'm truely no fan of drone assist. It would have been more appropriate for the skiffs to all be present, piloted and needing to lock and attack me as individuals (but that's a different topic).

I say keep the skiff bonus layout as is. Sure ORE is about mining, but one would have to assume based on the size of their operation that they have noticed the need to provide the option of a mining barge that can bite back. The role of ORE is to provide top of the line mining equipment, not stupidly adhere to a doctrine that dispenses defenseless km candy.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#8 - 2015-01-28 15:17:24 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I asked CCp Fozzie for the Skiff/Procurer to get a mining bonus also, the reason it didn't get one was because with it, it would begin to rival the Mackinaw/Retriever in terms of yield.


oh ok, but isn't there a 150% role bonus for yield ? reducing it would balance the yields.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#9 - 2015-01-28 15:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I say keep the skiff bonus layout as is. Sure ORE is about mining, but one would have to assume based on the size of their operation that they have noticed the need to provide the option of a mining barge that can bite back. The role of ORE is to provide top of the line mining equipment, not stupidly adhere to a doctrine that dispenses defenseless km candy.


Hum, lore-wise, ORE buy other companies to defend them against other mining companies and pirates, someone linked this in another thread about ORE : [quoted from https://forums.eveonline.com/profile/Kenrailae ]

"
ORE does not do 'little bits of everything.' ORE builds the best ship they can for a a specific role. They choose to build or buy what they want, or else buy someone to take it for them/defend them from whoever. Quoted directly from the Eve-wiki, all sniggers around 'wiki-accuracy' aside:

'They used their massive wealth to buy protection for their bases and keep their operation secret. Several pirate factions have tried to muscle in on the ORE territories, but with little success.'

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:ORE
"

I'm absolutely not against that ORE ships can tanks at least long enough to make escort have enough time to buzz off intruders, but being able to retaliate on their own is meh to me.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-01-28 15:38:00 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Things I didn't like were the crutch of local telling them I was a solo player and I'm truely no fan of drone assist. It would have been more appropriate for the skiffs to all be present, piloted and needing to lock and attack me as individuals (but that's a different topic).

I say keep the skiff bonus layout as is. Sure ORE is about mining, but one would have to assume based on the size of their operation that they have noticed the need to provide the option of a mining barge that can bite back. The role of ORE is to provide top of the line mining equipment, not stupidly adhere to a doctrine that dispenses defenseless km candy.

Working as intended that you lost, operator error and human assumption that they could do anything.

Just because an option exists, does't mean you can auto beat it when you warp in....would of been really stupid of you to try to attack something with drones circling it, it has buddies with drones on grid, and a Gnosis nearby as you stated....one would assume Sun Tzu "Know thy self, can't lose" philosophy would mean you had some idea you where out numbered and out gunned. Whining because someone put their drones on defense, a mechanic that has exsisted since forever, is just the player saying "its not fair! I lost, but it wasn't my fault...naught uh, it was the other guy who was far more prepared and planned ahead..its their fault I lost! (like saying tank your freighter, and keep the cargo low, don't shitfit it ect ect and the dude auto piloted with 3x cargo expanders and 5 billion in loot.....but wants some nerf to ganking buff to highsec who will get shot down...not much different than a whine that drone assist is OP Roll; you know the risks and stakes are, don't just assume and than complain..EVE is designed to have multipled accounts and if they are AFK scrolling accounts, but you want the drone assist nerfed....game won't survive because you complained it was to OP and secondary accounts started to be shut down).
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-01-28 16:43:39 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I asked CCp Fozzie for the Skiff/Procurer to get a mining bonus also, the reason it didn't get one was because with it, it would begin to rival the Mackinaw/Retriever in terms of yield.


oh ok, but isn't there a 150% role bonus for yield ? reducing it would balance the yields.

so then players MUST choose between already having the lowest yield and smallest ore hold, and NO defenses, or having nearly no yield, the smallest ore hold, and now unbonuses defenses.

no thanks,

yes its a mining ship, but the skiff has drone bonuses because it is designed for HOSTILE SPACE, it is designed to ward off pirates and others that would pose a threat. the tank doesnt do that, it just prevents random gankings on a whim in highsec, but in low/null, fleets can use these drones to make roamers think twice about engaging.

skiff/procurer are good ships, quit asking for them to be nerfed.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#12 - 2015-01-28 17:06:16 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I asked CCp Fozzie for the Skiff/Procurer to get a mining bonus also, the reason it didn't get one was because with it, it would begin to rival the Mackinaw/Retriever in terms of yield.


oh ok, but isn't there a 150% role bonus for yield ? reducing it would balance the yields.

so then players MUST choose between already having the lowest yield and smallest ore hold, and NO defenses, or having nearly no yield, the smallest ore hold, and now unbonuses defenses.

no thanks,

yes its a mining ship, but the skiff has drone bonuses because it is designed for HOSTILE SPACE, it is designed to ward off pirates and others that would pose a threat. the tank doesnt do that, it just prevents random gankings on a whim in highsec, but in low/null, fleets can use these drones to make roamers think twice about engaging.

skiff/procurer are good ships, quit asking for them to be nerfed.



Where did you see me talking about a overall nerf of these ships ? have you even bothered reading the first post ?

My suggestion is about transferring some strip miners yield to the mining drones, not reducing the overall yield of the procurer/skiff, I didn't even propose to touch anything for the tank and ore hold.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#13 - 2015-01-28 17:59:12 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:

Where did you see me talking about a overall nerf of these ships ? have you even bothered reading the first post ?

My suggestion is about transferring some strip miners yield to the mining drones, not reducing the overall yield of the procurer/skiff, I didn't even propose to touch anything for the tank and ore hold.


How do you account for or compensate for the presence of travel time between the drone and the host ship?

If a ship is at 10+ KM strip mining, then the mining drones take a considerable amount of time to get between the rocks and the host ship.

If you force a ship in to hugging range of the rocks in order to get the full theoretical yield, then it's a severe downside to the usefulness of the ship. If you increase the yield to compensate for travel time, then the people in say nullsec anoms who can hug the same rock for hours get unintentional boosts.

If you increase the speed of the mining drones to a point where little ore is lost from transit time, then the differences between strips and droned decrease massively. And if you make them "sentry" style mining droned, then the differences are gone altogether.

So can we get some more info on how you plan to implement your idea?
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#14 - 2015-01-28 18:16:12 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:

Why do this hull doesn't have a drone mining bonus ? and drone Damage bonus on top of that ?


The Rorqual also has a drone damage bonus. Because the Rorqual is also an Ore ship, I guess that means that needs to be replaced too because having a non combat oriented ship able to kill some form of hostile ship, even if it's a 5v1 situation, just shouldn't exist.

-1 Because the skiffs current bonuses make a potential ganker/pirate think for a second whether he can actually pop it.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#15 - 2015-01-28 18:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Anhenka wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:

Where did you see me talking about a overall nerf of these ships ? have you even bothered reading the first post ?

My suggestion is about transferring some strip miners yield to the mining drones, not reducing the overall yield of the procurer/skiff, I didn't even propose to touch anything for the tank and ore hold.


How do you account for or compensate for the presence of travel time between the drone and the host ship?

If a ship is at 10+ KM strip mining, then the mining drones take a considerable amount of time to get between the rocks and the host ship.

If you force a ship in to hugging range of the rocks in order to get the full theoretical yield, then it's a severe downside to the usefulness of the ship. If you increase the yield to compensate for travel time, then the people in say nullsec anoms who can hug the same rock for hours get unintentional boosts.

If you increase the speed of the mining drones to a point where little ore is lost from transit time, then the differences between strips and droned decrease massively. And if you make them "sentry" style mining droned, then the differences are gone altogether.

So can we get some more info on how you plan to implement your idea?



For the speed of the drones, I said that the miners would need to use Drone Navigation Computer module, a medium slot module that could make miners trade a part of their tank by taking 1 to 2 slots, and both procurer and skiff have multiple medium slots.

To compensate the fact that mining drones must travel between the ship and the ore, the mining drone bonus could give a yield bonus slightly above the current one.

And for nullsec, the asteroid there are sometimes really giant, with drones orbiting around they get very far from their mother ship half the time, and because the skiff (the only nullsec viable mining ship for solo to medium fleet) have more medium slot (5), more drone navigation computer module could compensate ?

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-01-28 18:29:13 UTC
Leyete Wulf wrote:
I'm not seeing where you're proposing a positive change to the game. It's not like we're seeing a proliferation of drone-bonused mining ships in combat fleets or anything, and the procurer/skiff are not over-tanked, they still die very well.


The industrial revolution is a thing.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#17 - 2015-01-28 18:29:44 UTC
Skiffs are fine. ORE making a ship with a tank is fine. Skiffs and a gnosis pwning me is fine. Mining folk having the ability to defent themselves - super.

Your idea is not so fine. Rants against those that don't like drone assist are not so fine. 300 archons in a blob assigning sentries to an intercepter is not so fine. Drone assist - the opposite of super.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#18 - 2015-01-28 18:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:

Why do this hull doesn't have a drone mining bonus ? and drone Damage bonus on top of that ?


The Rorqual also has a drone damage bonus. Because the Rorqual is also an Ore ship, I guess that means that needs to be replaced too because having a non combat oriented ship able to kill some form of hostile ship, even if it's a 5v1 situation, just shouldn't exist.

-1 Because the skiffs current bonuses make a potential ganker/pirate think for a second whether he can actually pop it.



Orca and Rorqual are support ships, support doesn't necessarily mean dps, but I don't mind seeing drone damage bonus on these, they are big ships capable of bugging off little to medium rats off the field.

But 6-7 skiff (~200 dps per ship, even more with 1-2 drone damage amplifier, with 69.4k EHP) being able all on their own to defend themselves against little gang pvpers in nullsec seems off for me.

Even with that, I'm not talking about removing their drone damage bonus, but that's even more strange to me to see a bonus to drones on a mining ship without seeing bonus to mining drones.

I forgot one thing about the yield lost from the strip miner : mining drones do not use crystals.

EDIT: it seems that my first post was not clear than I thought, I'll rewrite it.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-01-28 18:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tusker Crazinski
Kiddoomer wrote:
But 6-7 skiff (~200 dps per ship, even more with 1-2 drone damage amplifier, with 69.4k EHP) being able all on their own to defend themselves against little gang pvpers in nullsec seems off for me.


why? if anything high value industrial ships should be more armed than they are right now. In the days of old galleons have several decks of guns to fend of aggressors... New Eden is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the Atlantic.

anyway sure give them the mining and damage buff, just buff the other miners appropriately.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#20 - 2015-01-28 18:57:07 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
But 6-7 skiff (~200 dps per ship, even more with 1-2 drone damage amplifier, with 69.4k EHP) being able all on their own to defend themselves against little gang pvpers in nullsec seems off for me.


why? if anything high value industrial ships should be more armed than they are right now. In the days of old galleons have several decks of guns to fend of aggressors... New Eden is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the Atlantic.

anyway sure give them the mining and damage buff, just buff the other miners appropriately.



True I think, but every other barges than the small one doesn't have drone damage bonus, I know the hulk is for fleet/silly miners, but the mackinaw is a solo (afk) mining ships, so why not drone damage to him ?

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
12Next page