These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#341 - 2015-01-28 08:40:45 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants. Pirate implants for instance not only affect ship stats but the training speed of skills. It would seem natural to combine hardwires and learning implants as hardwires already affect ship attributes from 1% to 6% and could also affect the training modifier from 1 to 6. CCP could even expand the pirate and other implants if they desired so there is a wider range of training modifiers available.

There is a small concern that needs to be raised with the removal of learning implants. That concern is the removal could lead to "Power Ups" bought with Aurum to increase training speed. It is doubtful CCP would pull something like this though and I only bring it up so people are aware of the possibility.

** apologies in advance if the above thoughts have already been discussed **


The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. The majority of people (even most older players) are "lured in" by the training speed ones so they're not using their isk and slots on combat enhancers. If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.

A newer pilot who lacks the income won't be able to compete with older players who (without other options) will have 10 slots of combat implants, especially if CCP would add some new ones. This idea is NOT helping new players and is NOT helping the "average Joe" compete, it's only helping the rich & established players and alliances and turns the game more P2W.
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#342 - 2015-01-28 10:01:00 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants. Pirate implants for instance not only affect ship stats but the training speed of skills. It would seem natural to combine hardwires and learning implants as hardwires already affect ship attributes from 1% to 6% and could also affect the training modifier from 1 to 6. CCP could even expand the pirate and other implants if they desired so there is a wider range of training modifiers available.

There is a small concern that needs to be raised with the removal of learning implants. That concern is the removal could lead to "Power Ups" bought with Aurum to increase training speed. It is doubtful CCP would pull something like this though and I only bring it up so people are aware of the possibility.

** apologies in advance if the above thoughts have already been discussed **


The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. The majority of people (even most older players) are "lured in" by the training speed ones so they're not using their isk and slots on combat enhancers. If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.

A newer pilot who lacks the income won't be able to compete with older players who (without other options) will have 10 slots of combat implants, especially if CCP would add some new ones. This idea is NOT helping new players and is NOT helping the "average Joe" compete, it's only helping the rich & established players and alliances and turns the game more P2W.



and why shouldn't established players get a reward (which is optional and still expensive) for their time? What your logic eventually unravale sto is that everyone should enter the game and stay in the game as equals. Your argument is exactly the same when you consider advanced skills of established players over new players ... the difference the mods make, comparted to the SP difference, is negligable. And still, a frigate can be equally as deadly as a Battleship.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#343 - 2015-01-28 10:09:48 UTC
Leannor wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants. Pirate implants for instance not only affect ship stats but the training speed of skills. It would seem natural to combine hardwires and learning implants as hardwires already affect ship attributes from 1% to 6% and could also affect the training modifier from 1 to 6. CCP could even expand the pirate and other implants if they desired so there is a wider range of training modifiers available.

There is a small concern that needs to be raised with the removal of learning implants. That concern is the removal could lead to "Power Ups" bought with Aurum to increase training speed. It is doubtful CCP would pull something like this though and I only bring it up so people are aware of the possibility.

** apologies in advance if the above thoughts have already been discussed **


The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. The majority of people (even most older players) are "lured in" by the training speed ones so they're not using their isk and slots on combat enhancers. If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.

A newer pilot who lacks the income won't be able to compete with older players who (without other options) will have 10 slots of combat implants, especially if CCP would add some new ones. This idea is NOT helping new players and is NOT helping the "average Joe" compete, it's only helping the rich & established players and alliances and turns the game more P2W.



and why shouldn't established players get a reward (which is optional and still expensive) for their time? What your logic eventually unravale sto is that everyone should enter the game and stay in the game as equals. Your argument is exactly the same when you consider advanced skills of established players over new players ... the difference the mods make, comparted to the SP difference, is negligable. And still, a frigate can be equally as deadly as a Battleship.



Because they already have enough advantages and it doesn't help the game. If you want new blood in your game, 0.0 and whatnot (because the current establishment is boring and stagnant) the last thing you should do is skew the balance MORE towards older players. I realise that it's difficult for people to not be hypocrites so I'm not surprised you made that post.
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#344 - 2015-01-28 10:21:39 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Leannor wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants. Pirate implants for instance not only affect ship stats but the training speed of skills. It would seem natural to combine hardwires and learning implants as hardwires already affect ship attributes from 1% to 6% and could also affect the training modifier from 1 to 6. CCP could even expand the pirate and other implants if they desired so there is a wider range of training modifiers available.

There is a small concern that needs to be raised with the removal of learning implants. That concern is the removal could lead to "Power Ups" bought with Aurum to increase training speed. It is doubtful CCP would pull something like this though and I only bring it up so people are aware of the possibility.

** apologies in advance if the above thoughts have already been discussed **


The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. The majority of people (even most older players) are "lured in" by the training speed ones so they're not using their isk and slots on combat enhancers. If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.

A newer pilot who lacks the income won't be able to compete with older players who (without other options) will have 10 slots of combat implants, especially if CCP would add some new ones. This idea is NOT helping new players and is NOT helping the "average Joe" compete, it's only helping the rich & established players and alliances and turns the game more P2W.



and why shouldn't established players get a reward (which is optional and still expensive) for their time? What your logic eventually unravale sto is that everyone should enter the game and stay in the game as equals. Your argument is exactly the same when you consider advanced skills of established players over new players ... the difference the mods make, comparted to the SP difference, is negligable. And still, a frigate can be equally as deadly as a Battleship.



Because they already have enough advantages and it doesn't help the game. If you want new blood in your game, 0.0 and whatnot (because the current establishment is boring and stagnant) the last thing you should do is skew the balance MORE towards older players. I realise that it's difficult for people to not be hypocrites so I'm not surprised you made that post.



by that l;ogic we should not have any T2 stuff either, as only the older players can use Paladins wioth T2 guns because they have more SP and time in the game.

Your logic is flawed.

Implants (all 10) are just another tool you can choose to use at a cost, or not.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#345 - 2015-01-28 10:26:27 UTC
in fact, if pay to win is what you're on about, we should ban all faction ships which are uber, and mega expensive too. Because new players can't access them due to money, even though they have the skills.

Bye bye rattlesnake, bye bye navy apoc, ...

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#346 - 2015-01-28 11:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Your sperg posting shows a lot tbh.


Which part of "they already have enough advantages, lets not make it MORE skewed" don't you get?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#347 - 2015-01-28 11:13:01 UTC
Leannor wrote:
in fact, if pay to win is what you're on about, we should ban all faction ships which are uber, and mega expensive too. Because new players can't access them due to money, even though they have the skills.

Bye bye rattlesnake, bye bye navy apoc, ...


Why stop there? Anything over the ibis and its fittings should be removed too.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2015-01-28 12:26:39 UTC
Leannor wrote:

by that l;ogic we should not have any T2 stuff either, as only the older players can use Paladins wioth T2 guns because they have more SP and time in the game.

Your logic is flawed.

Implants (all 10) are just another tool you can choose to use at a cost, or not.


Please don't compare ships and modules that have plenty of alternatives to implants that have no alternatives. When push comes to shove a couple of players can gang up on a Paladin in cheap T1 ships and pound it into the ground. A couple of players can not come together to collectively boost their attributes permanently with +5 points.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#349 - 2015-01-28 13:39:06 UTC
Commentus Nolen wrote:
Why don't you wait and see what they are proposing.

I've seen enough.
I've seen how they removed "unnecessary difficulty" out of probing. Now I can scan literally everything in a ceptor.
I've seen how they removed medical clones, which a) destroyed any gameplay around stations with and without cloning bay and b) suppressed the motivation to kill pods, because in many cases you just make a favor to your opponent (he can reship faster).
I've seen how they removed production and research slots. Before, I should have searched for slots in a dangerous space, or built my POS (in a dangerous space too, because highsec POS was a myth). Now, I run research jobs next door to Jita. Teams? Didnt want them anyway.
They removed unique Rorqual feature too. Instead of reworking it, they create confessors.

Every time they remove a feature that does actually WORK, they make the game less interesting. Arguably, reducing the game difficulty they increase their potential client base, but I dont see any boost in logged in accounts, so...

I know what they are going to propose. "We are removing attributes, because it is confusing for new players and they quit after realizing they wasted all their remaps (or after being podded by suicide ganker). We will give you something instead, the brand new clone machanics, where clones are manufactured by players, it would be awesome. And it will come Soon (TM), in about 5 years (or 10), so stay tuned!"
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2015-01-28 15:34:30 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:

1) This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden. I along with probably a lot of capsuleers do not like it when they are podded and have to replace implants & hardwiring but it is a part of the game. This idea follows the recent removal of medical clones which arguably was a good idea but I don't think we needed to go further than that change.


Good idea: rebalance costs vs. sp amount of medical clones
Bad idea: remove everything ! (that's what you did CCP)

What's wrong with attributes and remap points ? If there're people dumb to the point they can't comprehend it, then make "Aura" explain it properly.

Up to level 3, in most cases level 4 and quite a few cases level 5 skills (such as rank 1 - 3 skills) - attribute implants and remappings are almost meaningless - especially that people will be training skills from very different areas.

How can even anyone find it confusing ?

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#351 - 2015-01-28 15:58:22 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
No that's not what most people did, stop inventing statistics unless you have some sort of proof. Most people sat in station for 2 months to learn learning skills.

You're as bad as the guy who's telling us what people, and especially WE, will and will not do if there's a change.



What wadaya said was true. The first 4-5 weeks were used to train basic skills then, 1-2 weeks were used to train learning skill (usually up to lv 3-4. Rarely lv5, because, if i remember well, they were 14 days long for +1 attribute), then we were back learning the basic skills. We did NOT sat in a station for 2 months like you think (and do...). One of my alt was in a NPC corp almost all his life (has almost 85m SP now) and sorry, but i do remember reading a lot of new players who were doing lv1 missions, ratting in belt, mining with a frigate and were training the learning skill to 3-4 before going for cruiser and med guns. I'm sure i was in a BS before having the learning skill to 4.

The learning skills weren't giving a huge boost and so, learning them right away was stupid anyway. It takes 89d for a new character to learn every skills needed for dreadnought lv1. 71 days with +5 implant, 74 days with +4 and 77 days with +3 (what i almost always used). 18 days less if we had all learning skill to 5...(and a single learning skill to 5 was taking 14-16 days).

Just because you sat in a station for 2 months for training the learning skill doesn't mean all eve players did (ie : stop inventing statistics...).
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#352 - 2015-01-28 16:32:04 UTC
Soltys wrote:
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:

1) This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden. I along with probably a lot of capsuleers do not like it when they are podded and have to replace implants & hardwiring but it is a part of the game. This idea follows the recent removal of medical clones which arguably was a good idea but I don't think we needed to go further than that change.


Good idea: rebalance costs vs. sp amount of medical clones
Bad idea: remove everything ! (that's what you did CCP)

What's wrong with attributes and remap points ? If there're people dumb to the point they can't comprehend it, then make "Aura" explain it properly.

Up to level 3, in most cases level 4 and quite a few cases level 5 skills (such as rank 1 - 3 skills) - attribute implants and remappings are almost meaningless - especially that people will be training skills from very different areas.

How can even anyone find it confusing ?


I hate to say it, but is this finally the americanisation effect? Dumbing it down so the mythical stupid can play it? If so, ... they're mythical. Don't dumb it down. If you do, you remove what attracted people to the game. The complexity of EVE is it's biggest virtue.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#353 - 2015-01-28 16:33:57 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Commentus Nolen wrote:
Why don't you wait and see what they are proposing.

I've seen enough.
I've seen how they removed "unnecessary difficulty" out of probing. Now I can scan literally everything in a ceptor.
I've seen how they removed medical clones, which a) destroyed any gameplay around stations with and without cloning bay and b) suppressed the motivation to kill pods, because in many cases you just make a favor to your opponent (he can reship faster).
I've seen how they removed production and research slots. Before, I should have searched for slots in a dangerous space, or built my POS (in a dangerous space too, because highsec POS was a myth). Now, I run research jobs next door to Jita. Teams? Didnt want them anyway.
They removed unique Rorqual feature too. Instead of reworking it, they create confessors.

Every time they remove a feature that does actually WORK, they make the game less interesting. Arguably, reducing the game difficulty they increase their potential client base, but I dont see any boost in logged in accounts, so...

I know what they are going to propose. "We are removing attributes, because it is confusing for new players and they quit after realizing they wasted all their remaps (or after being podded by suicide ganker). We will give you something instead, the brand new clone machanics, where clones are manufactured by players, it would be awesome. And it will come Soon (TM), in about 5 years (or 10), so stay tuned!"



don't forget they remove things the work ... and then introduce stupid stuff like 'teams' that don't work.

They really should listen to the saying 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. If you want to fix something? Fix the PI animation which has been bugged for years, that should keep you quiet for a while, and do something useful for a change!

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#354 - 2015-01-28 16:34:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Leannor wrote:
in fact, if pay to win is what you're on about, we should ban all faction ships which are uber, and mega expensive too. Because new players can't access them due to money, even though they have the skills.

Bye bye rattlesnake, bye bye navy apoc, ...


Why stop there? Anything over the ibis and its fittings should be removed too.


E-freeking-xactly.

Thankyou. :)

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#355 - 2015-01-28 16:36:31 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Leannor wrote:

by that l;ogic we should not have any T2 stuff either, as only the older players can use Paladins wioth T2 guns because they have more SP and time in the game.

Your logic is flawed.

Implants (all 10) are just another tool you can choose to use at a cost, or not.


Please don't compare ships and modules that have plenty of alternatives to implants that have no alternatives. When push comes to shove a couple of players can gang up on a Paladin in cheap T1 ships and pound it into the ground. A couple of players can not come together to collectively boost their attributes permanently with +5 points.



you do realise that there are grades of implants, right?

cheap ones, that are plus 1, more expensive that are plus five, mega expensive ones that have extras, ... then there are the T2 varieties ...

there is a massive range ... that people progress along ... "just like everything else in the game" ...

Ie, there is a very good reason why i compared them to ships. the comparison is valid.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#356 - 2015-01-28 16:41:06 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Leannor wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants. Pirate implants for instance not only affect ship stats but the training speed of skills. It would seem natural to combine hardwires and learning implants as hardwires already affect ship attributes from 1% to 6% and could also affect the training modifier from 1 to 6. CCP could even expand the pirate and other implants if they desired so there is a wider range of training modifiers available.

There is a small concern that needs to be raised with the removal of learning implants. That concern is the removal could lead to "Power Ups" bought with Aurum to increase training speed. It is doubtful CCP would pull something like this though and I only bring it up so people are aware of the possibility.

** apologies in advance if the above thoughts have already been discussed **


The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. The majority of people (even most older players) are "lured in" by the training speed ones so they're not using their isk and slots on combat enhancers. If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.

A newer pilot who lacks the income won't be able to compete with older players who (without other options) will have 10 slots of combat implants, especially if CCP would add some new ones. This idea is NOT helping new players and is NOT helping the "average Joe" compete, it's only helping the rich & established players and alliances and turns the game more P2W.



and why shouldn't established players get a reward (which is optional and still expensive) for their time? What your logic eventually unravale sto is that everyone should enter the game and stay in the game as equals. Your argument is exactly the same when you consider advanced skills of established players over new players ... the difference the mods make, comparted to the SP difference, is negligable. And still, a frigate can be equally as deadly as a Battleship.



Because they already have enough advantages and it doesn't help the game. If you want new blood in your game, 0.0 and whatnot (because the current establishment is boring and stagnant) the last thing you should do is skew the balance MORE towards older players. I realise that it's difficult for people to not be hypocrites so I'm not surprised you made that post.



LOL ... that argument would stand if we were requesting extra things to be added. But these have always been here. Their structure is the same as everything else in else - ie cheap small ones, high skillpoint better ones, and low skill point uber expensive ones ... that same structure applies across eve in everything. Everything bares it cost. We are not getting something extra, and we should not be capped unfairly. We have earned the right to be where we are, well, most have. New players have their usage.

If attracting playser is the end game and the issue ... solve that ... don't think hurting older players will start to recruit younger players. because they have no conept of what that is when they start, or before they've thought about eve. To get new players you need to advertise, and look after younger players better in terms of guidance and introductions. YOung players can be just as effective as older players, just using different tools.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Olleybear
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#357 - 2015-01-28 16:52:52 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. ... If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.


Pay to win is using real life money to gain advantage in game. Pay to win is exactly the opposite of earning resources in game to buy an implant.

As for removing the option of learning implants so people can choose combat implants, that is why I said "These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants." and I go on to explain how the learning speed increase can easily be added to hardwires.

You are purposefully saying the exact opposite of what was posted. You are trolling.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#358 - 2015-01-28 17:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Leannor wrote:
LOL ... that argument would stand if we were requesting extra things to be added. But these have always been here. Their structure is the same as everything else in else - ie cheap small ones, high skillpoint better ones, and low skill point uber expensive ones ... that same structure applies across eve in everything. Everything bares it cost. We are not getting something extra, and we should not be capped unfairly. We have earned the right to be where we are, well, most have. New players have their usage.

If attracting playser is the end game and the issue ... solve that ... don't think hurting older players will start to recruit younger players. because they have no conept of what that is when they start, or before they've thought about eve. To get new players you need to advertise, and look after younger players better in terms of guidance and introductions. YOung players can be just as effective as older players, just using different tools.


What the jezus fck are you talking about. Somebody try and explain what is said here, cause it makes no sense in light of this whole discussion.


Also: "We have earned the right to be where we are, well, most have", a quick check on you and your L***h character shows that you haven't exactly earned that, according to your own :logic:.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#359 - 2015-01-28 17:41:00 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

The issue is that learning speed implants are pay2advance (which is fine) but combat implants are pay2win. ... If you remove that lure, that option, then a majority will choose combat implants which turns the game into pay2win, massively skewed towards established players and groups.


Pay to win is using real life money to gain advantage in game. Pay to win is exactly the opposite of earning resources in game to buy an implant.

As for removing the option of learning implants so people can choose combat implants, that is why I said "These skill training modifiers dont necessarily have to be plain learning implants." and I go on to explain how the learning speed increase can easily be added to hardwires.

You are purposefully saying the exact opposite of what was posted. You are trolling.



Older, richer players can pay for them with isk, younger players can not and "will have to" buy them with isk, bought with plex. If you can't understand that simple logic, don't blame me.
Olleybear
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#360 - 2015-01-28 18:03:52 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Olleybear wrote:
You are trolling.



Older, richer players can pay for them with isk, younger players can not and "will have to" buy them with isk, bought with plex. If you can't understand that simple logic, don't blame me.


Here you are saying that its unfair that older people in game have more resources than people who first start playing Eve. You are then implying that younger pilots cant compete and that it is unfair that people with more resources have an advantage. Any pvp pilot knows young pilots can compete against vets if the young pilot understand more about pvp than simply warping to zero and pressing the fire button.

I understand perfectly well what you are doing and logic has nothing to do with it.

You are trolling.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.