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Okay, so, seriously.

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DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#141 - 2015-01-27 21:05:17 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Grivan wrote:
I have followed various of these threads, particularly the long running one following the dev blog. I'm not entirely sure what we are arguing about any more.

Originally CCP said they had to own all the content packaged in the their game, people pointed out that with regard to logos this is technically impossible or difficult (the German copyright law, for example). CCP have taken that away and come back with this proposal - correct me if I have mis-understood this:

A player creates a logo, they own this logo. They upload the logo, CCP modifies it (watermark, border, kangaroo, whatever) and they own this derivative work. The derivative is used within the game and all official CCP shebang. The original artist is free to use their original logo as they like (or to use the derivative, I imagine). One question raised was if the ownership of the original and the derivative are truly separate?


This is basically it, yes.

Except you didn't address the question about whether the original work and the derivative are actually separate. Creating the derivative of the logo might not actually resolve any of your legal issues. A license to use would. The license to use that you're continuously ignoring.

Never once have I seen you respond to anyone with specific points about why the irrevocable, unlimited license to use wouldn't work.



And as I don't think falcon is part of CCP legal, he won't reply to that. In most companies, only legal can discuss legal matters. It will most likely be a rep of legal who writes that section of the dev blog that's posted.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#142 - 2015-01-27 21:46:05 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Never once have I seen you respond to anyone with specific points about why the irrevocable, unlimited license to use wouldn't work.


Here's a simple example: in some countries, you can't sign away Copyright with an irrevocable unlimited license. You always have rights over your work. This is to protect artists from predatory agencies.

The only option that really works to protect CCP from copyright claims is to provide a mechanism to have CCP create the alliance logos on behalf of the players. This means that CCP owns the copyright from the get-go, and they only have to deal with Icelandic copyright law rather than having to work across German, Turkish, Russian, US, Australian and New Zealand copyright laws which don't play well together.

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Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#143 - 2015-01-27 22:08:26 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Never once have I seen you respond to anyone with specific points about why the irrevocable, unlimited license to use wouldn't work.


Here's a simple example: in some countries, you can't sign away Copyright with an irrevocable unlimited license. You always have rights over your work. This is to protect artists from predatory agencies.

I never mentioned anything about signing away copyright.
CCP Falcon
#144 - 2015-01-27 22:22:05 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

Except you didn't address the question about whether the original work and the derivative are actually separate. Creating the derivative of the logo might not actually resolve any of your legal issues. A license to use would. The license to use that you're continuously ignoring.

Never once have I seen you respond to anyone with specific points about why the irrevocable, unlimited license to use wouldn't work.



As far as I'm aware, from what I've heard from speaking extensively with our legal team, yes, a derivative work and the original would be seperate in this instance, and we would specifically specify that this was the intention, and the reason for the additions in the Alliance Logo policy, which alliances would have to accept before they were permitted to put a logo into the game.

As for the license, I haven't responded to it, because, *shock horror*, I'm not a lawyer. Our legal team don't feel like this is the correct solution, and are not happy with putting content into our game for which we do not hold the rights. Feel free to keep shooting the messenger though Smile

Existing logos are an exception as a courtesy to the community, because we don't want to strip people's identities out of the game and would rather wait to replace the logos when new ones are submitted eventually.

That said, if it bothers you so much, feel free to have your alliance executor file a support ticket under the community category, and we'll remove your logo from the game.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#145 - 2015-01-27 22:29:49 UTC
I'm not a lawyer. However, pretty much everything I do involves IP of one sort or another, so I've been forced to at least get a sense of the lay of things. My familiarity is with US law, mostly.

With that said, I don't believe that creating a derivative work buys you anything in the US. You can't do anything with a derivative work without the permission of the person whose work yours depends on, and the legal document you'd use to acquire and scope any permission would be... a license. Or wholesale assumption of copyright, but that's a non-starter at this point.

So it seems to me that, at least in the context of US law, you're back to square one with this plan.

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Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2015-01-28 00:16:22 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:

Except you didn't address the question about whether the original work and the derivative are actually separate. Creating the derivative of the logo might not actually resolve any of your legal issues. A license to use would. The license to use that you're continuously ignoring.

Never once have I seen you respond to anyone with specific points about why the irrevocable, unlimited license to use wouldn't work.



As far as I'm aware, from what I've heard from speaking extensively with our legal team, yes, a derivative work and the original would be seperate in this instance, and we would specifically specify that this was the intention, and the reason for the additions in the Alliance Logo policy, which alliances would have to accept before they were permitted to put a logo into the game.

As for the license, I haven't responded to it, because, *shock horror*, I'm not a lawyer. Our legal team don't feel like this is the correct solution, and are not happy with putting content into our game for which we do not hold the rights. Feel free to keep shooting the messenger though Smile

Existing logos are an exception as a courtesy to the community, because we don't want to strip people's identities out of the game and would rather wait to replace the logos when new ones are submitted eventually.

That said, if it bothers you so much, feel free to have your alliance executor file a support ticket under the community category, and we'll remove your logo from the game.



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Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2015-01-28 00:59:23 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:

So it seems to me that, at least in the context of US law, you're back to square one with this plan.

They don't actually care what square they're on, they just want to put enough song and dance around the problem to satisfy everyone's demands. A derivative work allows them to pretend they have full ownership of all content within the game, and the players can pretend they haven't actually signed away any rights.

The player-owned original logo can be used by players for merch or anything else the player group wants. That was the awful thing about CCP's ownership proposal: that they would license back your content with a ton of complete BS limitations. The CCP-owned derivative logo lets CCP report financial ownership of everything EVE and put the stuff in related games, books, merch, etc. Everyone is happy, until the next time CCP puts a cease-and-desist against cafepress and all the player-owned stuff gets removed anyways because cafepress doesn't care.


Just get ready for a bunch of great CCP reinterpretations of your logos.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#148 - 2015-01-28 01:02:35 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The only other issue I can think of would be moderating content, which shouldn't be an issue ...
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Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#149 - 2015-01-28 02:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
CCP Falcon wrote:
As far as I'm aware, from what I've heard from speaking extensively with our legal team, yes, a derivative work and the original would be seperate in this instance, and we would specifically specify that this was the intention, and the reason for the additions in the Alliance Logo policy, which alliances would have to accept before they were permitted to put a logo into the game.

What I believe myself and many others would really appreciate would be a specific example of what this derivative would actually look like. I doesn't have to be a definitive example, just one that could give us a rough idea of how much we can expect our logos to get changed. You can use the CCP logo to demonstrate.

CCP Falcon wrote:
As for the license, I haven't responded to it, because, *shock horror*, I'm not a lawyer. Our legal team don't feel like this is the correct solution, and are not happy with putting content into our game for which we do not hold the rights. Feel free to keep shooting the messenger though Smile

You're right, I'm sorry, I've been unfair to you. I do realize that yes, you're the Community Manager, so you're the one who's been sent to speak to us about this. But why? As you said yourself, you're not a lawyer. Why haven't the lawyers themselves come to speak to us? CCP has the devs, designers, and artists talk to us. Why are the lawyers behind closed doors? Maybe I was shooting the messenger, but they sent the messenger.

CCP Falcon wrote:
Existing logos are an exception as a courtesy to the community, because we don't want to strip people's identities out of the game and would rather wait to replace the logos when new ones are submitted eventually.

But your company's actions suggest that you view the presence of our logos as a liability, otherwise you wouldn't see the need to implement new policies. If that were the case, why would they leave the liabilities there for more than a year after you identified the possibility?
Andros Omega
PANTH-EON
#150 - 2015-01-28 02:13:12 UTC
Seems to me one way to get around this is to create a system similar to the Corp logo system where you can create your logo using ONLY in-game assets. Do that for Alliance logos and you should be all good. No one can claim copyright as all assets are owned by CCP from the start.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#151 - 2015-01-28 03:14:12 UTC
Andros Omega wrote:
Seems to me one way to get around this is to create a system similar to the Corp logo system where you can create your logo using ONLY in-game assets. Do that for Alliance logos and you should be all good. No one can claim copyright as all assets are owned by CCP from the start.



And then CCP could grant the licences to use them to the Alliances. Hmmm, might work... if ownership is not an issue for the Alliances.
Dr Ron
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#152 - 2015-01-28 03:24:18 UTC
Andros Omega wrote:
Seems to me one way to get around this is to create a system similar to the Corp logo system where you can create your logo using ONLY in-game assets. Do that for Alliance logos and you should be all good. No one can claim copyright as all assets are owned by CCP from the start.



Can these assets include a dinosaur? How about a cigar or a bee?

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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#153 - 2015-01-28 06:40:07 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Why haven't the lawyers themselves come to speak to us? CCP has the devs, designers, and artists talk to us.


Devs, designers and artists are on salary. Lawyers bill by the hour.

But I'm sure if you pass the hat around your corp to come up with the $1,200 in billable hours per post, the lawyers would be happy to address your whine here in the forum.

Mr Epeen Cool
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#154 - 2015-01-28 06:47:18 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Why haven't the lawyers themselves come to speak to us? CCP has the devs, designers, and artists talk to us.


Devs, designers and artists are on salary. Lawyers bill by the hour.

You don't know that. If they work for CCP (which they do, since they're CCP's legal team and not just some lawyers they've hired for this issue alone), they're probably salaried.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#155 - 2015-01-28 07:43:56 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
As for the license, I haven't responded to it, because, *shock horror*, I'm not a lawyer. Our legal team don't feel like this is the correct solution, and are not happy with putting content into our game for which we do not hold the rights. Feel free to keep shooting the messenger though Smile

I am sure the EVE client ships with a lot of third party libraries for which you don't hold the rights but a redistribution licence. I seriously don't get how it can take years to resolve an issue about some pictures. An issue you solved with libraries for years. You basically just have to say "guys your logo needs to be CC BY which allows us commercial redistribution, modification, etc. or something like that" that's all. If you really need ownership of the picture then you can wait a long time as this is impossible do to some countries laws as many already explained.

And if you don't feel comfortable to take the fire for the lawyers then send them to the forums please. I am not sure why you are talking to us if you can't answer the original question anyway.

Evil RatKid
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2015-01-28 08:05:00 UTC
CCP Falcon, please specifically specify the specific specifications. Pacifically.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#157 - 2015-01-28 15:38:04 UTC
Using a derivative work is problematical. I found this out when I made a derivative work of my own (see my signature). I found all I could do was distribute it for free. Anything that resulted in my making money would result in trouble. Even placing it on a free-to-view web site, then selling advertisements on that site, would be an issue.

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NaiMor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2015-01-28 21:57:53 UTC
This sounds like EVE. Oops. Forgot the TM and CR.
NaiMor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2015-01-28 22:01:55 UTC
No player should be using CR or TM related intellectual stuff as a player on EVE. Using a third party for the portrayal of such is an infringement of advertising in EU.
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
#160 - 2015-01-28 22:13:33 UTC
But I want to put my pixels into EVE noaw, I want to put my pixels in balls deep!

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