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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed. First post First post
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Aralyn Cormallen

Deep Core Mining Inc.

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,324

#281 - 2015-01-27 16:11:42 UTC

Edward Olmops wrote:

Aralyn Cormallen wrote:

How typical am I? I will admit I don't know, but I would bet anything I'm a lot more closer to the norm than Mrs "wore +5s since day one and never trained a skill off-remap".

EDIT: Right, I went full-nerd and did some basic maths. 8765.81 hours/year, and removing unsubbed and unskilling time, I have been skilling for approx 5 years exact. Looking at my current sp (92mil and some change), it comes out that I've averaged 2106 sp/h over my characters life.

Started in August '09 and just passed the 120m SP.
Continuous training with mostly +5/+4, aligning skills and training PER/WIL or INT/ME for a year straight after some time (with some exceptions).
That is a third more.
OFC, one can still be a happy pilot with 50mil or 20mil SP, but still a significant difference...

But at this stage of the day, what has that gotten you? In the likelihood of us fighting in the same ships, you might have 1 or 2 support skills a single level higher than me, but that is easily compensated by a set of combat implants you confess later to be unwilling to wear. Or in a less even match-up, its likely the fact I am all-5 skilled in all races of Strategic Cruiser, a ship you confess to refusing to fly, will compensate you being higher-skilled in a weaker class of ship.

There is a definite diminishing return of skill-points. I wont pretend it doesn't make a massive difference for the first few years when you are scrabbling to get in to T2 ships and weapon systems without horribly crippling yourself by avoiding the support skills, but after a certain point, it no longer really matters, to the point where I am currently paused while I skill up an alt on the same account in basic support skills to use a couple of doctrine ships (that I can already use at max skills), since having the ability to locate a combat-ready character in a different location to myself is far more useful than spending the time adding 5% damage to Fighters, or a third race of Dreadnaught.

Ralph King-Griffin

New Eden Tech Support

Likes received: 21,564

#282 - 2015-01-27 16:16:37 UTC

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Gregor Parud wrote:

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Whats A itrolly .Jpg tactic?

You

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated
Im sure you wouldnt say this to my Face And your personal Attacks of calling me stupid have nothing to do with This Thread. I suggest you read the Forum rules http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/forum-moderation-policy

1) hes correct

2) you aren't a moderator. stop this.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=

kingduckling

The pie is a lie

Likes received: 3

#283 - 2015-01-27 16:20:24 UTC

look small sons this is what needs to happen.

Keep the implants that provide combat boosts but remove the skill training attributes.

Completely revamp how you can get more skill points faster.

So many options for decreasing the cons and improving the pros, like a booster concept make it you can use one booster per 1/2/4/8/ days that will accelerate the training no matter what. Every time i die what pisses me off is that i loose my implants and i loose training time, Its all about SP.

I really hope the rumors are true, change is good, this game should be crawling with engagements everywhere, too much to loose, and by revamping this there will still be much too loose(excluding SP).

You guys can be "bitter vets" all you want. this is would be a great change for nullcombat since i will assume pods make it out intact in Lowsec.

Solops Crendraven

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 86

#284 - 2015-01-27 16:27:43 UTC | Edited by: Solops Crendraven

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Gregor Parud wrote:

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Whats A itrolly .Jpg tactic?

You

1) hes correct

2) you aren't a moderator. stop this.

1) What That he Violated Forum rules By Personally attacking me
2) And You agreeing with him

I guarantee A ISD moderater will moderate this Garbage. I pay $100 or more in Plex.a month to play this game This is the Primary reason New players Leave this game. If this continues i will make this a issue starting by recording and submitting a Ticket. so lets Keep on topic of this thread.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

HORAE Deteis

Likely Suspects

Likes received: 2

#285 - 2015-01-27 16:32:15 UTC | Edited by: HORAE Deteis

Well, If you dont like them Implants Dont plug them in! Myself I use them and various custome clones as "Tweeks" it just add that little bit of buff to me when i want it! If make the clevir player better. A lot can be said for the motivation to PLAY the game actively for the LP of ISk to get those implants.

DONT make the game dull please CCP keep the complexity HIGH we dont want the MMO thiugs in here tat just want to level to the top and then stagnate in END game duldrums. FFS :) (OFC it would take about 25Years with +5 implants to get all skills trained !! that is Brilliant! Add moar skills that can do stuff soon please)

Lady Rift

His Majesty's Privateers

Likes received: 262

#286 - 2015-01-27 16:39:28 UTC

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Gregor Parud wrote:

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Whats A itrolly .Jpg tactic?

You

1) hes correct

2) you aren't a moderator. stop this.

Yes the primary reason people leave the game are people on there high horses and trying to be things there not (trying to be a dev/gm/isd)

Implants should become more risk aka get rid of +2 +3 +4 as those are in the hardwire If you want +4's get a slave/snake/other set. The set you want not have +4's then make a choice or live with lower ones. dont want the set bonuses than get +5's


Aralyn Cormallen Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State Likes received: 1,324	#287 - 2015-01-27 17:00:43 UTC 2 kingduckling wrote: Every time i die what pisses me off is that i loose my implants and i loose training time, Its all about SP. And thats a good thing, dying should **** you off. Why would the game be better without thisfeeling?

Solops Crendraven

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 86

#288 - 2015-01-27 17:34:16 UTC | Edited by: Solops Crendraven

Yes the primary reason people leave the game are people on there high horses and trying to be things there not (trying to be a dev/gm/isd)

I agree Thats pretty much of the Population Of Eve .I wouldnt never want to be a Moderator Dev or Gm However if im personally attacked on Forums Im going to defend myself . Regardless if we are talking about removal Of implants or Expressing a viewpoint that People will not agree However lets keep on topic and civil thats all I ask.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Aiyshimin

Shiva Furnace

Likes received: 594

#289 - 2015-01-27 17:41:58 UTC

Mara Rinn wrote:

Gregor Parud wrote:

Mara Rinn wrote:

Is it really "dumbing down" when the optimum training plan was to not play the game for two years, and removing attributes means people will actually play the game before they get bored of it?

Nothing is forcing you to do so.

And yet people do.

Why is that?

Some people watch Fox News too, and **** sheep

what gives

Solops Crendraven

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 86

#290 - 2015-01-27 17:46:00 UTC | Edited by: Solops Crendraven

Aiyshimin wrote:

Mara Rinn wrote:

Gregor Parud wrote:

Mara Rinn wrote:

Is it really "dumbing down" when the optimum training plan was to not play the game for two years, and removing attributes means people will actually play the game before they get bored of it?

Nothing is forcing you to do so.

And yet people do.

Why is that?

Some people watch Fox News too, and **** sheep

what gives

Lol that so True ..Just think people use to believe the world was flat if anything they need the attribute skills and Inplants more than we do.So when they do Remove the attribute skills and implants we will be able to play eve the way Immortals should, No Fear!

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Jeremiah Saken

The Fall of Leviathan

Likes received: 830

#291 - 2015-01-27 17:53:54 UTC

In short:
Ppl want to boost learning by pluging attributes implants but doing so they are preventing themselfs from playing actively by using ships (undocking). So someone figured that if we remove that obstacle more ppl will undock., and maybe do PvP.
Whole discussion was never about implants from the start. It was about gaining SP.
It doesn't matter if we switch learning implants into skills ones. PvPer will always use empty clones. I can't imagine pluging implants worth 1B, jumping into frig and going roam lowsec. Rubbish.
Now question:
how much time do we gain with clean clone vs clone with +5 implants when we are learning skill with 1xmultiplier (no remap ofc)?

Just because learning implants took 1-5 slots and there are wide range of variety doesn't mean we have to remove them from game.
Price, usability, ablity to manufacture them by players, more variations.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Aliventi

Rattini Tribe

Minmatar Fleet Alliance

Likes received: 949

#292 - 2015-01-27 17:59:48 UTC | Edited by: Aliventi

CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk averse behavior, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.

Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.

Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.

Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.

Learning implants encourage risk adverse gameplay. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.

Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)

The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants.

Dracones

Tarsis Inc

Likes received: 69

#293 - 2015-01-27 18:04:36 UTC

kingduckling wrote:

So many options for decreasing the cons and improving the pros, like a booster concept make it you can use one booster per 1/2/4/8/ days that will accelerate the training no matter what. Every time i die what pisses me off is that i loose my implants and i loose training time, Its all about SP.

I think one thing any future change should consider would be making it easy for the devs to tweak how long it takes to train into certain areas of the game. For example, let's say it today it takes 1 month to train into a good frigate pilot, 2 more months for destroyers and 4 more months for cruisers(made up numbers to make things easier). So today they make changes and "lock in" that it takes 1/2/4 months for each of those tiers.

The game goes on for 5-7 years, bittervets with 100+ mil SP are training into their T3 supers and a new player joins. Does CCP still want that new player to be locked into that 1/2/4 month training cycle?

Ideally CCP should be able to easily tweak the SP gains for various activities as the game ages. These tweaks shouldn't require heavy code changes and the tweaks should be reversible so they can change them based on play feedback. Personally I like implants for this because they come into the game via LP stores/drops and they exit the game via podding and replacing. I just think that how they currently work you can't tweak them much and target specific areas of the game.

The booster idea also isn't bad. Since those also "go away" after X days and CCP can control how new ones come into the game. But I think they'd be more interesting if they weren't just a universal SP boost, but targeted certain skill groups. So you'd have Sisters boosters, Fed Navy boosters, and so on.

Solops Crendraven

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 86

#294 - 2015-01-27 18:06:14 UTC

Aliventi wrote:

CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk adversity, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.

Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.

Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.

Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.

Learning implants encourage risk adversity. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.

Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)

The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants.

Im one of those Players. You can be my CSM representative anytime You got my Vote.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here


Ralph King-Griffin New Eden Tech Support Likes received: 21,564	#295 - 2015-01-27 18:10:30 UTC 2 Aliventi wrote: Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. learn faster, perform better , no loss upon pod death. thats a meaningful choice. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations =]\|[=

Unsuccessful At Everything

The Troll Bridge

Likes received: 23,523

#296 - 2015-01-27 18:16:22 UTC

CCP removed clone grades, now wants to remove learning implants..

Next step, removing remaps.

Eve Online Homogenization and Generalization complete.

Soon, we will all be the same, which will create outcry to 'let us be different', which will create need for a cash shop to sell 30 day SP boosters.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Lady Rift

His Majesty's Privateers

Likes received: 262

#297 - 2015-01-27 18:19:46 UTC

Aliventi wrote:

CCP needs to remove learning implants and not replace them with anything. The truth is that leaning implants add nothing meaningful to the game, are a terrible choice to make, encourage risk adversity, and removing them from the game would actually improve Eve without dumbing Eve down.

Let's start with choices. Eve is not a game of choices. If you think Eve is a game of choices you are wrong. Eve is a game of meaningful choices. That is a huge distinction. A meaningful choice is choice that affects the Eve universe beyond yourself. For example the choice to fit an AB instead of an MWD is a meaningful choice. Your decision now is going to affect the fight you and others are going to have in a matter of minutes. You decisions during that fight are meaningful choices. What you do after that fight will likely be a series of meaningful choices.

Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. Take any situation: mining, PvP, PvE, market trading, etc. Place yourself in that situation with another person. Ask yourself these simple questions: Does that player having no learning implants affect this situation? What if they have a set of +1 implants? +5 implants? Under no circumstances does their decision to use learning implants affect your gameplay at all. Some of you are going to argue that if you podded said player with +5 implants you would feel good because you destroyed something of high value they had. You will miss the fact that it wasn't the learning implants that affected your gameplay, but the value of those implants. If we set the value to 0 they would have little to no effect at all. Learning implants are still not a meaningful choice.

Clone grades were a choice between losing isk or losing SP. That is a terrible choice to make. CCP rightly removed clone grades from the game because of the poor choice they presented, among other things. Learning implants are the exact same choice that was presented in clone grades: lose isk or lose SP. Imagine there was a third choice added. This third choice is a "no change" choice. So if I offered you the choice between losing your isk, losing your SP, and doing nothing and losing nothing. A majority of people would chose to lose nothing. That may seem a little extreme, but the point is that anytime where the choice of "do nothing and lose nothing" is the best choice it should be altered to not be the best choice. In fact the do nothing choice became the only option for clone grades and people rejoiced because a terrible choice was removed.

Learning implants encourage risk adversity. I have trained many pilots to PvP over the years. One of the biggest issues is that the players, who often don't have lots of isk, would rather stay in highsec where they can use their learning implants to gain skills quickly than PvP or do something where those implants would be at risk. People should be out enjoying the game, creating content for themselves and others. It isn't hard to see that removing learning implants will get more people out into space and doing things in space. One of the biggest arguments to removing clone grades, argued mainly by nullsec and lowsec PvPers, was that a 15+ mil isk clone was enough to get people to not fly small ships. It isn't hard to see why 40 mil isk in two +4 implants is discouraging PvP just as much as clone grades were.

Ask yourself: if learning implants were removed, and we were given a flat SP/hour that compensated for their removal, would Eve be better or worse off? I will argue that it would be better off. A meaningless and terrible choice is no longer present, more people are out doing risky activities while gaining the max SP/hour they can, and more content is generated. There are surprisingly minimal costs to removing learning implants. We lost a few LP store items. I am sure CCP can fix that. Other than that... it is all gains. (feel free to let me know if I missed costs.)

The bottom line is that Eve will be better off if learning implants are removed. I hope CCP can see that removing learning implants is really in the best interest of the game. I ask players that agree to speak to their CSM representatives and get them to urge CCP to remove learning implants.

If they where to be removed no bonus to training should be added standardize to the lowest possible training now.

Solops Crendraven

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 86

#298 - 2015-01-27 18:32:51 UTC | Edited by: Solops Crendraven

Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:

Actually A Cash shop to sell 30 day SP Boosters would be pretty neat. I would Buy It.I would buy 10 more accounts if they did this they would just Have to lower the sub to $2 dollors each .

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here

Ralph King-Griffin

New Eden Tech Support

Likes received: 21,564

#299 - 2015-01-27 18:33:46 UTC

Solops Crendraven wrote:

Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:

Actually A Cash shop to sell 30 day SP Boosters would be pretty neat. I would Buy It.

i know and hate you for it

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=


Aliventi Rattini Tribe Minmatar Fleet Alliance Likes received: 949	#300 - 2015-01-27 18:41:52 UTC Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Aliventi wrote: Learning implants are not a meaningful choice. learn faster, perform better , no loss upon pod death. thats a meaningful choice. CCP really should force you to train Reading to V before they allow you to train Out of Context Quoting.

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