EVE General Discussion

i've always had +3s in. i reckon +3s are probably what's 'standard', if there is one. cheap enough that a rookie can afford them, really. getting +4s'd make me question if i really needed them

It isnt the same argument. Learning skills once trained stuck with you, you never had to think of them again, the only cost was time. There are no alternatives to them, and there is no downside to having them, this is no choice. Learnng implants cost you your implant slots 1-5, which can be used for other things, get a crystal set for 15% boost to your rep rate or get that extra 1.5 sp/m with the learning implants? This is choice.

After 7 years you care about 11m sp? This is sounding more and more like a case of you wanting the +5 sp at no cost, heres the thing, this game was built upon consequences. Upon risk vs reward. If you want the reward, take the risk, fly with your +5s and enjoy the game.

Attribute implants are not particularly profitable. There are many things that are more profitable, including high end hardwirings (as opposed to high end implants).

Removing attribute implants does not mean that pirate implants would go away: they would simply lose the attribute bonuses. Your high-grade slave implants would still provide a significant boost to armour.



"Dumbing down" would imply that there are benefits provided by attribute points and learning implants beyond the ability to stroke one's e-peen over the trimming of a 2-year-long training plan by four days, part of which includes stacking all the Per/Wil skills together and then stacking the Int/Mem skills together, then leaving the character to "cook" for two-years-less-four-days.

That is not actually playing the game.

Is it really "dumbing down" when the optimum training plan was to not play the game for two years, and removing attributes means people will actually play the game before they get bored of it?

Ok just to prove I didn't do min/maxing from day one:

Source

This was ofcourse long before learning skills were removed and neural remaps were introduced. Also seems I only waited a year and not two before going from +4 to +5's on this character. After all the +5 implants back in 2006 cost around 2 years worth of game time each so well out of reach. Thankfully CCP tweaked the availability.

But sure, I'm not the highest SP Gallente Jin-Mei in game without a reason and the Achura I created (and later sold) is still in the top 5 among them.

The real truth is that people like to make excuses (even to themselves) about what they do. for some reason, some people who aren't pvp minded choose to think "if it's just easier/more accessible/less costly I would pvp".

Developers across games (not just EVE) deliver on this all the time, only to see the exact same people find a new excuse, because it wasn't the cost or something keeping them from pvping, it was them (the player and that player's true preferences) that kept them out of pvp.

Look at all the things CCP has added to the game in the last 2 years that damn near no one uses despite the fact that use of those itmes would solve the problems they complain about. Mobil micro jump drives, scan inhibitors, cyno jammers, anchor rigs, target lock breakers and so on and not even including the already existing stuff like ecm, ecm bursts, smartbombs, nuets, warp core stabs etc etc. CCp could put in a "win" button that ejects everyone but you from the server and they'd still complain lol.

If CCP is gonna remove learning implants, they should do it for the right reasons (ie they can deliver better gameplay options without them, lie it was with learning skills) and not the wrong reasons ("hey, if we remove these things, people will pvp their backsides off!!").

Because for the rest of us who don't really care about optimising a few days out of a two year training plan, removal of attributes won't change the game we play.

Removal of attributes will only alter things for the people who play Skill Training (Off/On)line (aka "Sokoban with Gantt Charts")

The options with learning skills were the same as the current options for learning implants. You had the option to ship spin for two months or train ship skills and actually have fun in game. Now that everyone picked the ship spinning route explains why we no longer have those skills in game. However with the learning implants it is the same choice again for people, do they want to have fun or progress faster in safety?

Personally I don't care what happens with the learning implants as long as they flatten the attributes. It would just be a good opportunity to get both fixed at once.

And yes I'm glad i didn't miss out on those 11m+ SP.

Then anybody who want to remove attribute implants will have same argument for pirate implants. "We don't want do undock because the cost of them". If they don't undock now they won't with pirate sets. Cost matter here. Not only: "we don't have options here, so let's just remove them". Last one is easy to solve.

Dumbing down as less oportunities to train my character.
Just merge attributes bonuses with skill bonuses like in pirate sets and we will have problem solved.
One part of the problem is training system in EvE. We have to plan our skill training ahead, with only one remap of skill per year. When i started to play EvE i was feeling like i'm being forced to choose my path for next few months. I don't even know if i will be playing this game then. We are slave to our SP's.

For that newbie to "catch up" they need to dedicate 12 months with one remap to a set of skills which will mostly be wasted until they finish the next 12 month period of training with a different remap.

There's no point having medium gunnery skills until you can fly a cruiser, for example. With attributes and remaps gone, there is no pressure to "catch up" with the veteran players by remapping and logging out for two years. So the newer players can simply train the support skills to fly a mediocre frigate, then skill up to fly a mediocre cruiser, then focus on support skills. All the while, they'll be actually playing the game.

CCP could even enhance training speed (like they did for rookie pilots in their sub-1.5M SP period at one point, which later changed to "Cerebral Accelerators"). That's how you provide a benefit to rookie pilots, by addressing the "catching up with vets" issue directly.



The people who are afraid of losing their +5s are typically the ones who never got into the kinds of incomes where they'd be using Slave Implants. They're addicted to the learning speed, because they're min-maxers. The people who do have the kinds of incomes where they can afford to take high-grade Slaves into combat also don't care about SP because they can just buy the characters they want. If you have ISK, you don't need to train Racial Titan 5, you just buy the character that already has it trained.



Richer players already have that advantage. Removing learning implants isn't going to change that particular advantage.

Removing attributes and learning implants still leaves the way open for Cerebral Accelerators to help newbies "catch up" with skill training. Even better since there will be no neural remaps the Cerebral Accelerators are effectively twice as useful.

No, they don't. The point of going int/mem and then later on perc/wil is to train (pretty much) all the relevant skills before remapping, no sane person will go int/mem just to get some support skills up to a slightly decent level. As such that strategy is only for people who think REALLY long term and as such agree to short term uselessness. Simply put; alts

Anyone who actually plays the game (new players, single account players) will follow a more logical overall perc/int or similar. Those people aren't going full OCD "these all skills first", they're actually playing the game (gasp). So if you take away the "must get everything to lvl 5" then the training time loss from not going 2 remaps but instead going an overall remap is actually really low. About 5-10%.

Alts and long term players will choose those 5-10% but that's more OCD than actually logically useful. People who just enjoy playing the game won't notice a difference.


The rest of your stuff is a whole lot of "what if" that has no bearing on the (f)actual current situation, nor would it change anything. those extra implants affect extra... regardless of removing of learning implants or not.