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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#81 - 2015-01-25 20:48:25 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
[quote=Dracones][quote=Gregor Parud]
fact 4: this is EVE, where your choice may have consequences


Then why were remaps even added to the game? If choices are supposed to have these heavy consequences, then remaps never should've been added and you get locked into the type of character as soon as you hit the create character button. This could even be newbie friendly with "Choose the type of character you want to play: Industrial, Science, Combat" etc.

And yet neural remaps were added. And training skills were removed. Attributes going away with the choice being in the learning implants you run seems like the next logical step. It's a quality of life improvement(no year long skill planning, no 3rd party tool requirements) with the only downside being that the game gets less complex.
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-01-25 20:55:20 UTC
Incestuous Criticism wrote:
If it aint broke, dont fix it (or in this case stuff around with it).
There are other things that need attention in EVE.

Its Broke

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#83 - 2015-01-25 20:55:46 UTC
Dracones wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
[quote=Dracones][quote=Gregor Parud]
fact 4: this is EVE, where your choice may have consequences


Then why were remaps even added to the game? If choices are supposed to have these heavy consequences, then remaps never should've been added and you get locked into the type of character as soon as you hit the create character button. This could even be newbie friendly with "Choose the type of character you want to play: Industrial, Science, Combat" etc.

And yet neural remaps were added. And training skills were removed. Attributes going away with the choice being in the learning implants you run seems like the next logical step. It's a quality of life improvement(no year long skill planning, no 3rd party tool requirements) with the only downside being that the game gets less complex.




Remaps were added because the standard attribs were a) bad and b) gave you no options. And now you want to remove options again?

Learning skills were removed because they didn't add any gameplay and would force someone who chose to go for them to do nothing for 2 months. Quite different from what we have here; people aren't "doing nothing" with the current system whether they ignore the remaps or go for a min/max one. So, those changes aren't a precedent for these.... ideas.


"quality of life" is not the same as "lol @ effort and consequences", HTFU.
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#84 - 2015-01-25 21:31:03 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
And they always try to sell it as "it would be better for the game" while they actually mean "it would be better for me, because I'm lazy".


Oh no, I'm fully in the "it would be better for me" camp, but laziness has nothing to do with it. I'm risk-averse, sitting in station not undocking, because I have exactly 18 more days of train 2 chars on 1 account left, and the skills fit exactly in this time frame, so losing my +3's would cost me a whole another plex (to extend dual training).

With the change, CODE would get soo many more potshots at me and my full industrial. But right now they'll have to wait 18 days.

Anyway, that's my selfish reason. Did understanding it make a difference in your opinion?


God... Roll

You stay docked in a station in EMPIRE because you fear being podded? You know...empire...know as high security where it is impossible to anchor a bubble...

The only way to lose a pod in empire are :
-being AFK
-autopilote in empire...in a pod
-not warping after losing his ship

You are for this change because you lost a pod in empire last month because YOU did not spam "warp" like YOU should have done.

And let's be honest, tons and tons of new players are PVPing with implants. Even with the change, you would still stay docked.
Dracones
Tarsis Inc
#85 - 2015-01-25 21:34:03 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

Remaps were added because the standard attribs were a) bad and b) gave you no options. And now you want to remove options again?


Pre-remap you had options. I choose to make this character industrial and when I wanted a combat character I choose to make one with attributes focused on that. These were meaningful choices with hard consequences, which you claim to love(BTW, both of these characters still have 3 bonus remaps).

Removing attribute doesn't have to skunk options. There's no reason why learning implants couldn't focus on specific skill categories. A 10% Drones Learning Boost implant is a lot easier to understand some arcane combination of memory and perception. You can even make learning implants more interesting in other ways. Imagine Federation Navy implants from faction warfare LP stores that focus on Gallente ships and hybrid turrets. Or rare faction learning implants that focus on capital skills. Wormhole sleepers might drop implants that are related to learning T3 ships and systems.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#86 - 2015-01-25 21:39:09 UTC
Nevase Prometeus wrote:
In my point of view I think the best way is CCP should make some options for each players to decide their play style.
Nobody should told anybody that this style of playing is right this style is wrong. If CCP still hold on theier concept that EVE is a sandbox game.They should give that decisions for players to decide.

But Sandbox concept is not let players doing anything they want without any responsibity. I just hope CCP might keep EVE in terms of responsibilty to any enjoyments should not come from another players's tear and sadness . Enjoyments from that is like bullying . I think no one like to be Bullied so CCP might looking for that kind of fun with cautious.May be like make option for players who just need only PVE and don't want to PVP. When player declare themself that they don't want to PVE another players should understood and respect not to violate their rights. If anyone violate that it sound like violate in anothers player rights or humanrights too.

Great post, would read again.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2015-01-25 21:46:05 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Nevase Prometeus wrote:
In my point of view I think the best way is CCP should make some options for each players to decide their play style.
Nobody should told anybody that this style of playing is right this style is wrong. If CCP still hold on theier concept that EVE is a sandbox game.They should give that decisions for players to decide.

But Sandbox concept is not let players doing anything they want without any responsibity. I just hope CCP might keep EVE in terms of responsibilty to any enjoyments should not come from another players's tear and sadness . Enjoyments from that is like bullying . I think no one like to be Bullied so CCP might looking for that kind of fun with cautious.May be like make option for players who just need only PVE and don't want to PVP. When player declare themself that they don't want to PVE another players should understood and respect not to violate their rights. If anyone violate that it sound like violate in anothers player rights or humanrights too.

Great post, would read again.
sounds reasonable. Let me read this again just to make sure.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
Wadaya
Trailerpark Industries
#88 - 2015-01-25 21:46:25 UTC
I may be way off base here, but removing attributes and having everyone train at the same rate. How does that even help any.?

All in all it seems just like it's a setup for offering "bonus xp runes" like the cash shops in f2p games somewhere down the road.

This is Eve, choices are supposed to matter. It even says so in all the game trailers, and now you want to remove consequences? Some people can't even remap because 8 years ago they chose to roll a character with 3 base charisma, and if you remap you are forced to add 2 to charisma because the lowest stat you can have is 5. People can live with it. No one is forcing anyone to buy implants, I know many people who don't even fit them.

This game is supposed to be harder and more complex than most games. Quit trying to dumb it down, it won't bring in more players, it will just keep alienating the ones you have left.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#89 - 2015-01-25 21:48:44 UTC
The entire skills system is nothing but a Skinner's Box. LOL @ people who think that training skills has any value/gameplay/skill involved. It is all a scam. There is no valid argument in favor of learning implants or attributes, it is simply complexity within a system that is designed solely to keep players subscribed. It is all a worthless time sink.

Get rid of attributes, get rid of learning implants, give everyone the current max SP/hour. Give all new players lvl 3 in all engineering and navigation skills while you're at it. Training a bunch of 5-20 minute skills to be able to fit basic modules is dumb.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#90 - 2015-01-25 22:06:32 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
The entire skills system is nothing but a Skinner's Box. LOL @ people who think that training skills has any value/gameplay/skill involved. It is all a scam. There is no valid argument in favor of learning implants or attributes, it is simply complexity within a system that is designed solely to keep players subscribed. It is all a worthless time sink.

Get rid of attributes, get rid of learning implants, give everyone the current max SP/hour. Give all new players lvl 3 in all engineering and navigation skills while you're at it. Training a bunch of 5-20 minute skills to be able to fit basic modules is dumb.



COD is that way --------->
Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#91 - 2015-01-25 22:17:06 UTC
I'm of opinion that removing implants is a bad idea. You balance your learning speed vs. other implants that give more practical stats.

I do like the set implants, perhaps give us a +5 version of those.

But don't remove attribute implants, and certainly do not remove attributes all together. It's an important decision when you sit down to decide on next year's attribute mapping.
Memphis Baas
#92 - 2015-01-25 22:38:37 UTC
They should make Aura pipe up with "Excellent decision made, sir/madam. Excellent!" whenever you "sit down" to make this "important decision."

They should also make Aura snicker whenever you queue an off-plan skill.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#93 - 2015-01-25 22:46:34 UTC
Dracones wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

Remaps were added because the standard attribs were a) bad and b) gave you no options. And now you want to remove options again?


Pre-remap you had options. I choose to make this character industrial and when I wanted a combat character I choose to make one with attributes focused on that. These were meaningful choices with hard consequences, which you claim to love(BTW, both of these characters still have 3 bonus remaps).

Removing attribute doesn't have to skunk options. There's no reason why learning implants couldn't focus on specific skill categories. A 10% Drones Learning Boost implant is a lot easier to understand some arcane combination of memory and perception. You can even make learning implants more interesting in other ways. Imagine Federation Navy implants from faction warfare LP stores that focus on Gallente ships and hybrid turrets. Or rare faction learning implants that focus on capital skills. Wormhole sleepers might drop implants that are related to learning T3 ships and systems.



That's a pretty neat idea

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2015-01-25 22:48:17 UTC
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
The entire skills system is nothing but a Skinner's Box. LOL @ people who think that training skills has any value/gameplay/skill involved. It is all a scam. There is no valid argument in favor of learning implants or attributes, it is simply complexity within a system that is designed solely to keep players subscribed. It is all a worthless time sink.

Get rid of attributes, get rid of learning implants, give everyone the current max SP/hour. Give all new players lvl 3 in all engineering and navigation skills while you're at it. Training a bunch of 5-20 minute skills to be able to fit basic modules is dumb.

I agree If it wasnt for this worthless time sink i wouldve unsubscribed months ago .Bottom Line Removing Implants, Skills, and atributes will be good for our Pocket Books. I would rather use isk to buy ships and fly them right away and get into the fight than wait around training skills for implants.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#95 - 2015-01-25 23:10:17 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Unezka Turigahl wrote:
The entire skills system is nothing but a Skinner's Box. LOL @ people who think that training skills has any value/gameplay/skill involved. It is all a scam. There is no valid argument in favor of learning implants or attributes, it is simply complexity within a system that is designed solely to keep players subscribed. It is all a worthless time sink.

Get rid of attributes, get rid of learning implants, give everyone the current max SP/hour. Give all new players lvl 3 in all engineering and navigation skills while you're at it. Training a bunch of 5-20 minute skills to be able to fit basic modules is dumb.



COD is that way --------->


I'm pretty sure most shooters these days also string players along with skills and unlockable weapons and such. The masses are easily placated if you meter out a pellet for them every now and then. Yum, artificial achievement!
Eojek
Starlight Moly
#96 - 2015-01-25 23:32:03 UTC
If I have my learning implants removed from the game, which I paid for in terms of time and effort, I would like to be able to learn just as quickly as if I had the implants. I would also expect to be compensated for the cost of those same implants.
Lexia Nova
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2015-01-25 23:38:18 UTC
Honestly as a player that has kept an eye on EVE for many years, I have been surprised recently on CCP`s desire to change EVE in many ways.

In some respect this is a much needed thing for the game. For instance, I was surprised to find out on return to the game that different levels of skill clone had gone! One of the bigger parts of the game removed that I did not expect but it probably was a good thing.
Older players can now fly cheap small ships without fear of losing a 200, 300m+ clone just to keep the skillpoints in.

That being said, I am worried about CCP gutting too much of the risk / planning / investment aspects of the game too much further as if we make things too comfortable... EVE is slowly losing its harshness and key decision making that the game is so renown for.

So overall I will watch this space and see what happens.
Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-01-25 23:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Solops Crendraven
Eojek wrote:
If I have my learning implants removed from the game, which I paid for in terms of time and effort, I would like to be able to learn just as quickly as if I had the implants. I would also expect to be compensated for the cost of those same implants.

Fair Enough And reasonable. Everybody will be Happy the New Players will get what they want and the Veterans will make alot of Plex.

Moving To Las Vegas Watch Me Play Poker! enter link description here
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#99 - 2015-01-25 23:55:36 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Orlacc wrote:
If what has been done to exploration is any example, I bet this happens. A lot of funds were wasted developing vaporware and the need for same is likely enormous. The orders are likely "get and retain new subs." At all costs.


And of course they are removing the mission refusal penalties for the "only PVE" crowd.

Oh well, I have seen other things I enjoy changed to the point where I stopped enjoying them. Sad though.

Its going to be CU then NGE of SWG all over again SadSadSad



I keep hearing this... and its not been true thus far. People claimed wormhole change would kill eve.. hasn;t. People claimed pheobe changes would kill eve... hasn't. Hell people claimed isboxer changes would kill eve... 25 days later i have not noticed a huge drops in subs.. so hasn't

Stop making stupid claims and wait and see what ccp might do with something. This is the time to voice your feedback as to why a change might be bad and how to fix it, or how a change could be good but made better

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#100 - 2015-01-26 00:12:26 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:

1) This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden. I along with probably a lot of capsuleers do not like it when they are podded and have to replace implants & hardwiring but it is a part of the game. This idea follows the recent removal of medical clones which arguably was a good idea but I don't think we needed to go further than that change.

2) This change would be another kick in the pants to the missions system, mission/LP revenue and various career sub-options such as selling ore for storyline missions etc. I would argue that too many revenue ideas have been removed or made uneconomic already.

3) I feel this is another case of dumbing down of the game. Are we eventually going to get to a point where EVE Online is like many other MMOs where items are just collected within the game and nothing gets destroyed ?

I invite comments and ask whether people feel the attribute point & implants are a nice complication within the game or whether we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.


The problem with attribute implants is they punish you for living in null sec(or low sec to a lesser extent) but it's a trivial cost for a high sec mission runner.

I would prefer a monthly fee for the bonus.