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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#1 - 2015-01-24 16:47:57 UTC
Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:

1) This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden. I along with probably a lot of capsuleers do not like it when they are podded and have to replace implants & hardwiring but it is a part of the game. This idea follows the recent removal of medical clones which arguably was a good idea but I don't think we needed to go further than that change.

2) This change would be another kick in the pants to the missions system, mission/LP revenue and various career sub-options such as selling ore for storyline missions etc. I would argue that too many revenue ideas have been removed or made uneconomic already.

3) I feel this is another case of dumbing down of the game. Are we eventually going to get to a point where EVE Online is like many other MMOs where items are just collected within the game and nothing gets destroyed ?

I invite comments and ask whether people feel the attribute point & implants are a nice complication within the game or whether we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-01-24 16:57:54 UTC
In before the lock

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

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Sharise Dragonstar
Big Strong
Hisec Miners
#3 - 2015-01-24 16:59:31 UTC
Although I don't personally like implants I agree with Celgar that it would be a bad implamentation. The medical clone change was fine. Eve needs risk to be Eve else it becomes just another run of the mill MMO.
Memphis Baas
#4 - 2015-01-24 17:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
My opinion is: of all the things that they can do to get people to PVP more even if they don't want to, it's not one of the worst.

I would undock more if there were no attribute implants to worry about. I would also train differently if all the skills trained at whatever max rate we have when properly remapped. And I'm a carebear, so the PVP'ers would have an increasingly target-rich environment.

Yes, the game is changing, and it remains to be seen whether it's ultimately for the good or the bad. CCP does go ahead and do whatever they want, so basically we can complain about changes but ultimately we can't really prevent them.

Quote:

Eve needs risk to be Eve else it becomes just another run of the mill MMO.

Oh, it has a ways to go yet, considering that you don't lose your armor when you die in most current MMO's.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#5 - 2015-01-24 17:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Crumplecorn
Memphis Baas wrote:
I would undock more if there were no attribute implants to worry about.
There's an easy way to achieve this right now.


At OP, tbh, I'm less interested in whether there is a good argument for removing implants/attributes, and more interested in how moronic an argument is actually being put forward.

You might be able to write a thesis on how the game would be better overall without them, but that would be irrelevant to whether or not "wah wah I'm afraid to lose implants" is a good argument (spoiler: it isn't).

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Memphis Baas
#6 - 2015-01-24 17:07:32 UTC
Yes there is, but like it or not, there is an advantage of keeping your implants, compared to going without them in your head. And there is a disadvantage too.

And what they're proposing is a buff, not a nerf. We get the effect of the implants, and we lose the boredom of sitting in station and can do whatever we want.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#7 - 2015-01-24 17:15:26 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Yes there is, but like it or not, there is an advantage of keeping your implants, compared to going without them in your head. And there is a disadvantage too.
Yes, I do like it. Since that's pretty much the entire basis of the game. If you take away the disadvantages of everything, there is no game left.

Memphis Baas wrote:
And what they're proposing is a buff, not a nerf. We get the effect of the implants, and we lose the boredom of sitting in station and can do whatever we want.
You can already do whatever you want. The only thing creating boredom is you.

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Commentus Nolen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-01-24 17:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Commentus Nolen
Why don't you wait and see what they are proposing.

Implants are not going away, in fact if they removed the learning boost and tweak the faction implants to make them more worthwhile to use at the higher levels it would add more depth to the game.

Attaching skill learning speed to how much you can afford to pay just hurts the new player who does not have 10 Jump clones and billions of isk to work with.

Instead of stressing about the proposed change, why don't you give some ideals on how to make implants more valuable for players too want to use other then speeding up leaning.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-01-24 17:22:23 UTC
I think the skill learning system serves two fundamental purposes:

1. Feed players content slowly (years) to keep them hooked

2. Favor character customization and differentiation


Attribute implants aren't really necessary for neither, so it doesn't matter much if they will be removed.

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Orlacc
#10 - 2015-01-24 17:23:28 UTC
If what has been done to exploration is any example, I bet this happens. A lot of funds were wasted developing vaporware and the need for same is likely enormous. The orders are likely "get and retain new subs." At all costs.


And of course they are removing the mission refusal penalties for the "only PVE" crowd.

Oh well, I have seen other things I enjoy changed to the point where I stopped enjoying them. Sad though.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Commentus Nolen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-01-24 17:27:47 UTC
Orlacc wrote:


And of course they are removing the mission refusal penalties for the "only PVE" crowd.


Please link.
Memphis Baas
#12 - 2015-01-24 17:30:28 UTC
I don't own this game. All I have is a license to access this game's servers with its client.
CCP doesn't owe me anything for being a player.
Any time and effort I put in this game is a waste of my life.

Therefore CCP retains the right to change anything they want, including shutting down the servers for good when this becomes unprofitable, and they don't owe me anything.

Like any game.
Asura Vajrarupa
Doomheim
#13 - 2015-01-24 17:33:23 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden.


But other types of implants will remain, so there is still risk. I would be fine with it if they added more implants that affected ships and ship combat, among the other things that non-learning implants affect.

I don't think this is dumbing down at all. I think this is more to the tune of moving away from oven mits chess.

Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-01-24 17:39:22 UTC
I've never really liked attribute points. It adds an (in my opinion) unnecessary level of complexity to the skill system which is already pretty complex on its own. Unnecessary complexity doesn't make the game harder, it just makes it more annoying. And just like learning skills back in the day, having implants is not a question of having a choice. You either do it or you miss out. They work exactly the same as the learning skills, except the investment is ISK instead of time (sp). Learning skills were taken out for a reason, so I can't blame CCP for looking at attributes and going 'hmmmm, we should really do something about this'.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2015-01-24 18:04:45 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
I would undock more if there were no attribute implants to worry about.
There's an easy way to achieve this right now.


At OP, tbh, I'm less interested in whether there is a good argument for removing implants/attributes, and more interested in how moronic an argument is actually being put forward.

You might be able to write a thesis on how the game would be better overall without them, but that would be irrelevant to whether or not "wah wah I'm afraid to lose implants" is a good argument (spoiler: it isn't).


There is a false notion that the two proposals must be linked.

It is quite possible to believe, as I do, that attributes are bad and should be hated and that learning implants are still a viable concept.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=391378

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Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-01-24 18:55:23 UTC
This just in;

Space Panda's confirmed!

News at 11
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#17 - 2015-01-24 19:21:37 UTC
From what I get, they're not removing the implants. What does seem likely is the removal of the attribute implants, making the usage of the non-attribute implants in slots 1 to 5 more viable & valuable.

One could of course claim you should have multiple clones, depending on the task you got them for, but ultimatly, this leads to people only having 2 clones at most, a PvP clone & a learning implant clone for everything else. Removal of the attribute implants could diversify the implants people use. Because right now, not using attribute implants doesn't make sense in most situations.

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Solops Crendraven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-01-24 19:45:54 UTC
Celgar Thurn wrote:
Apparently CCP/ the CSM are debating removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. I would like to raise the following issues with this possible action:

1) This idea seems to remove an additional element of risk to undocking in New Eden. I along with probably a lot of capsuleers do not like it when they are podded and have to replace implants & hardwiring but it is a part of the game. This idea follows the recent removal of medical clones which arguably was a good idea but I don't think we needed to go further than that change.

2) This change would be another kick in the pants to the missions system, mission/LP revenue and various career sub-options such as selling ore for storyline missions etc. I would argue that too many revenue ideas have been removed or made uneconomic already.

3) I feel this is another case of dumbing down of the game. Are we eventually going to get to a point where EVE Online is like many other MMOs where items are just collected within the game and nothing gets destroyed ?

I invite comments and ask whether people feel the attribute point & implants are a nice complication within the game or whether we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Removing attribute points and the learning implants from the game. Im For It !

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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2015-01-24 19:48:42 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
If what has been done to exploration is any example, I bet this happens. A lot of funds were wasted developing vaporware and the need for same is likely enormous. The orders are likely "get and retain new subs." At all costs.


And of course they are removing the mission refusal penalties for the "only PVE" crowd.

Oh well, I have seen other things I enjoy changed to the point where I stopped enjoying them. Sad though.

Its going to be CU then NGE of SWG all over again SadSadSad
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#20 - 2015-01-24 19:59:44 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:
From what I get, they're not removing the implants. What does seem likely is the removal of the attribute implants, making the usage of the non-attribute implants in slots 1 to 5 more viable & valuable.

One could of course claim you should have multiple clones, depending on the task you got them for, but ultimatly, this leads to people only having 2 clones at most, a PvP clone & a learning implant clone for everything else. Removal of the attribute implants could diversify the implants people use. Because right now, not using attribute implants doesn't make sense in most situations.




I was just thinking this when I read the OP. If some implants are removed, then that only frees up room for other implants.

We should not be surprised if the attribute modifiers get moved into other existing or new implants. That would mix things up a bit.

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