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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#441 - 2015-01-21 19:19:56 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk wrote:
The PvE players have allowed their expectations of play to rise, up to the point where they can only be satisfied running maximum efficiency mining or ratting fitting schemes.


How is this any different than PVP players? It's a pointless statement. Who would willingly reduce their efficency?

You honestly dont get it or you are just trying to split hairs or something.

How is this different?

I will try my best to explain this.
The PvE player referred to below is NOT representative of all PvE players, just the ones who refuse to operate when a cloaked player is also present.
Despite what may be a view held by many, other PvE players continue to act and play during hostile presence.

The PvP player prepares for the environment, and tries to anticipate obstacles.
(DO I need a faster ship, or will I want to focus on buffer tank, or maybe I want sniping ability)
The use of a cloaked ship as a counter to being destroyed before achieving the objective fits this mindset.

The PvE player, in this context, prepares for the environment exclusively.
(I won't need a defensive fit, or anything beyond ISK maximizing fittings, as no obstacles are possible)
The strict avoidance of potentially hostile players fits this mindset.

PvP players accept compromises on efficiency, in exchange for extended ability to operate under hostile circumstances.
PvE players reject hostile circumstances, and as a result do not operate during periods where this would conflict.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#442 - 2015-01-21 19:20:38 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk wrote:
The PvE players have allowed their expectations of play to rise, up to the point where they can only be satisfied running maximum efficiency mining or ratting fitting schemes.


How is this any different than PVP players? It's a pointless statement. Who would willingly reduce their efficency?

You honestly dont get it or you are just trying to split hairs or something.


PVE players have a habbit of wanting to remove any and every object and tactic that can cut into their isk/hr rather than adapt and take a hit to their income.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#443 - 2015-01-21 19:36:41 UTC
AFK cloaking is much, much less of a threat since the changes to Jump Range and Jump Fatigue. The threat has never really been about the one cloaked ship- the threat was what they could cyno in at any time.

If there is still a problem, the problem would be that the cloaking module can stay on indefinitely, requires no fuel, and there is absolutely no way to track down someone that is cloaked (unless they decloak somehow).

This brings about a situation where a person can have many "afk cloaking" accounts logged in at once (like me!) and go between being "AFK Cloaked" to "Active Cloaked" instantly without anyone being aware, across several tens of accounts. This means that I can always have near-perfect information before I strike or bridge in blops.

If anything, I can keep an alt cloaked up with a private stream in a hostile staging system and be providing real time intel 23/7, without being at my computer.

I don't really want CCP to make more changes to AFK Cloaking, but part of me can see why this mechanic is slightly broken as-is.
Aredontis
Doomheim
#444 - 2015-01-21 19:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aredontis
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:

So you think cloaked ships in w-space are OP?


Lets see if you get it this time - read closely now - You cannot compare cloakey camping WH to the same in low/null. The campers in WH cannot light a cyno and drop everything from bombers to capital ships on you. Please try to pay attention to the facts and stop comparing apples and oranges.

Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
I am convinced that nullsec is just fat and lazy.


Now I see what your real problem is, you hate null-bears and are convinced that they have it easier than you. Though you have just admitted that before you start WH-bearing, you and your group lock down your hole and close off as many entrances as possible, something null-bears can't do.

Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
CCP, please remove the respawning of anomalies in nullsec. Make those fat, lazy carebears have to go into other systems for more PVE. We have to do it in w-space. They should have to in nullsec as well.


And this is the heart of your issue, null-bears get respawns, because they live in space that they pay huge amounts of isk to "own" (though having a sov bill, just like property taxes means you don't really own it) and upgrade. To you, the only problem is that those damn sov-null-bears have anoms, and you want anoms!!! "waaaahhhh nerf them!!"

Not that anyone gives a tiny rats ass, but here are some changes I could go for:
1. Cloaking affects signals, so when you are cloaked, no local or d-scan for you!!! - thats right, even you "explorers" will lose all intel when cloaked. You don't see local, and you don't show in local. In order to have an antenna outside the cloaking field (to pick up signals) you would be scan-able. Makes sense to me!
2. Same decloak lock timer for all! The "problem" the bears see is that they can't counter the hot drop ('cause if they could the dropper wouldn't drop). So we'll give everyone the same fighting chance. When you decloak you can light your cyno, but you can't lock a target for 30 seconds. That means you have to hope your drop fleet gets bridged in before the target gets out.

Think that about covers it. Though I still like the idea of the client kicking out anyone that has been inactive for a set amount of time. Every other MMO I've played has this feature, they align it with reducing server and network load, but whatever.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#445 - 2015-01-21 19:54:56 UTC
nikks wrote:

PvP players accept compromises on efficiency, in exchange for extended ability to operate under hostile circumstances.
PvE players reject hostile circumstances, and as a result do not operate during periods where this would conflict.


Are you saying that be equiping a cloak you are hindering the effeciency of your ship?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#446 - 2015-01-21 19:57:08 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
AFK cloaking is much, much less of a threat since the changes to Jump Range and Jump Fatigue. The threat has never really been about the one cloaked ship- the threat was what they could cyno in at any time.

If there is still a problem, the problem would be that the cloaking module can stay on indefinitely, requires no fuel, and there is absolutely no way to track down someone that is cloaked (unless they decloak somehow).

This brings about a situation where a person can have many "afk cloaking" accounts logged in at once (like me!) and go between being "AFK Cloaked" to "Active Cloaked" instantly without anyone being aware, across several tens of accounts. This means that I can always have near-perfect information before I strike or bridge in blops.

If anything, I can keep an alt cloaked up with a private stream in a hostile staging system and be providing real time intel 23/7, without being at my computer.

I don't really want CCP to make more changes to AFK Cloaking, but part of me can see why this mechanic is slightly broken as-is.


Really honest view on things. I like it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#447 - 2015-01-21 20:16:13 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
nikks wrote:

PvP players accept compromises on efficiency, in exchange for extended ability to operate under hostile circumstances.
PvE players reject hostile circumstances, and as a result do not operate during periods where this would conflict.


Are you saying that be equiping a cloak you are hindering the effeciency of your ship?

Yes.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#448 - 2015-01-21 20:22:58 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
nikks wrote:

PvP players accept compromises on efficiency, in exchange for extended ability to operate under hostile circumstances.
PvE players reject hostile circumstances, and as a result do not operate during periods where this would conflict.


Are you saying that be equiping a cloak you are hindering the effeciency of your ship?

Yes.


OK So in your mind, adding a cloak to a covert ops ships that you plan on using to invade enemy space is hindering that ship?

I hope you are smart enough to realize how wrong you are in that statement.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#449 - 2015-01-21 20:55:15 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
nikks wrote:

PvP players accept compromises on efficiency, in exchange for extended ability to operate under hostile circumstances.
PvE players reject hostile circumstances, and as a result do not operate during periods where this would conflict.


Are you saying that be equiping a cloak you are hindering the effeciency of your ship?

Yes.


OK So in your mind, adding a cloak to a covert ops ships that you plan on using to invade enemy space is hindering that ship?

I hope you are smart enough to realize how wrong you are in that statement.

Rather limited range of perspective, you seem to be using.

No, I would point out that many PvP players would prefer to go in with a much more robustly tanked ship, with greater DPS.

However, these ships are slower, and easier to target. Much less likely to get past a typical gate camp, and actually reach the preferred targets. Laughably incapable of waiting out the time needed, for the PvE ships to re-appear for hunting.
The trade off, is that a stealthy ship is needed, which unfortunately is less PvP capable, and not likely to win in a confrontation with normal PvP ships.

It is perfectly valid to target and hunt PvE shipping. This includes inside sov space friendly to these PvE ships.
It is not normally possible to catch PvE shipping inside friendly sov space, as they have too many advantages allowing a prepared pilot capability of avoiding threats.

Being able to change defensive posture, and having the result be safety except for pilot error, is a mutual condition.

The PvE ship docks, the cloaked ship stays cloaked. Balance exists.
Not necessarily a resolution to the stalemate, but that is balance for you.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#450 - 2015-01-21 21:33:58 UTC
You mistake efficency with winning.

A covert ops ship is the most efficent way to invade alliance held territory. Without that cloak, that ship is not only ineffecient, it reachs the point of being useless for it's the task. Thus for the task, the CovOp ship is at the peak of its effeciency for the task you wish to complete. Your post makes it clear that any other ship would be also inefficent to invade, though it would be better for killing a target.

PVEers do the exact same thing. An Osprey can go mining but a hulk does a much better job.

Thus your statement that PVPers bend to be flexable and PVEers dont is just crap. Both do their best to be the most effecient yet you seem to think that PVEers should limit their activities.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#451 - 2015-01-21 21:34:22 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
OK So in your mind, adding a cloak to a covert ops ships that you plan on using to invade enemy space is hindering that ship?

I hope you are smart enough to realize how wrong you are in that statement.


Haywoud, covops are hindered by design. Take a look at a typical covops frigate fit. Or at a bomber tank. A cloaky T3 must sacrifice a submodule to fit covops cloak.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2015-01-21 21:49:54 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
You mistake efficency with winning.

A covert ops ship is the most efficent way to invade alliance held territory. Without that cloak, that ship is not only ineffecient, it reachs the point of being useless for it's the task. Thus for the task, the CovOp ship is at the peak of its effeciency for the task you wish to complete. Your post makes it clear that any other ship would be also inefficent to invade, though it would be better for killing a target.

PVEers do the exact same thing. An Osprey can go mining but a hulk does a much better job.

Thus your statement that PVPers bend to be flexable and PVEers dont is just crap. Both do their best to be the most effecient yet you seem to think that PVEers should limit their activities.


Except that you fit your ship to be efficient in your ultimate goal, i.e. whatever PVE you intent to do. In PVP the ultimate goal is of course to destroy the enemy ships. And by choosing covops you sacrifice dps, application or tank, i.e. the very qualities that make an efficient combat ship.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#453 - 2015-01-21 21:55:07 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
You mistake efficency with winning.

A covert ops ship is the most efficent way to invade alliance held territory. Without that cloak, that ship is not only ineffecient, it reachs the point of being useless for it's the task. Thus for the task, the CovOp ship is at the peak of its effeciency for the task you wish to complete. Your post makes it clear that any other ship would be also inefficent to invade, though it would be better for killing a target.

PVEers do the exact same thing. An Osprey can go mining but a hulk does a much better job.

Thus your statement that PVPers bend to be flexable and PVEers dont is just crap. Both do their best to be the most effecient yet you seem to think that PVEers should limit their activities.

I mistake nothing.

The cloaked ship is the only valid option for the task, which makes it unfortunately limited as to what it can effectively handle.
The pilot knows they have a specific window of acceptable risk, and they stick to targets which fit this profile.
They WANT that encounter, and made the hull and fitting sacrifices to be able to avoid other encounters in hostile space.

The defending pilots in the system, are no different than the pilots who were at the gate camp, or the roams possibly patrolling the region.
The cloaked pilot knows he cannot fight them effectively.
This may be public access space, but the infrastructure belongs to a hostile force which won't let him reship, restock, or simply exist there, if they can prevent it.

So, he comes to hunt the PvE ship.
The only match he will accept, is between him and the PvE ship.

If the defenders could stop him, he would never have reached the system in the first place.

So the hunter sits, and waits, for his prey.

Will the defenders draw him out?
Will he draw out the PvE ship?
Someone will blink, eventually, in this staring contest.

Sandbox.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#454 - 2015-01-21 22:31:28 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
OK So in your mind, adding a cloak to a covert ops ships that you plan on using to invade enemy space is hindering that ship?

I hope you are smart enough to realize how wrong you are in that statement.


Haywoud, covops are hindered by design. Take a look at a typical covops frigate fit. Or at a bomber tank. A cloaky T3 must sacrifice a submodule to fit covops cloak.


Yes I understand they are hindered. If they were the perfert killing machine and cloaked, they would be OP. However as a stealth vessel they are perfectly suited for what they do. The cloak is what makes them. This not only applies to frigates but t3 cruisers.

What Nikk is trying to imply is that the CovOps ships somehow are PVPing with a handicap, which is not true at all.

If you wish to hide, and you fit a covops cloak, then your ship is at 100% efficiency for its goal.
It is doing exactly what it was designed to do. You can not say that the cloak is a crutch.

That is like saying that an ewar frig is gimped by its array of ewar items. Just cause it doesnt make ships go pop doesnt mean that it's not doing exactly what it was meant for.

So overall I still hold that Nikk is mistaken in his assessment that PVPers bend and PVEers dont. I feel this statement is not based on facts and more on distaste for PVE players in general.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#455 - 2015-01-21 22:47:53 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
...

What Nikk is trying to imply is that the CovOps ships somehow are PVPing with a handicap, which is not true at all.

If you wish to hide, and you fit a covops cloak, then your ship is at 100% efficiency for its goal.
It is doing exactly what it was designed to do. You can not say that the cloak is a crutch.

That is like saying that an ewar frig is gimped by its array of ewar items. Just cause it doesnt make ships go pop doesnt mean that it's not doing exactly what it was meant for.

So overall I still hold that Nikk is mistaken in his assessment that PVPers bend and PVEers dont. I feel this statement is not based on facts and more on distaste for PVE players in general.

Now, who is confusing different concepts?

There is a difference between being the only valid choice, and being capable of mixing it up successfully with a front line PvP ship.

The CovOps is gimped in PvP ability.
Since it is this type of stealth ship required to reach the target, the target can only be reached by a ship which is gimped in PvP ability.

Frontline PvP ships are not worried about the CovOps in a basic PvP match. They can beat it fairly predictably.
On the other hand, unless the CovOps pilot makes a mistake, they will never catch him either.

Owing to the infrastructure advantage of sov space, only one side can conveniently reship into frontline PvP ships here.
Whether this is done at a POS, bristling with guns... or an Outpost, with it's market of available resources, only the local pilots have this option.

The CovOps pilot is stuck in the ship he arrived in, whether he is content with this lack of choice or not.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2015-01-21 22:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
Delegate wrote:
Haywoud, covops are hindered by design. Take a look at a typical covops frigate fit. Or at a bomber tank. A cloaky T3 must sacrifice a submodule to fit covops cloak.


Yes I understand they are hindered. If they were the perfert killing machine and cloaked, they would be OP. However as a stealth vessel they are perfectly suited for what they do. The cloak is what makes them. This not only applies to frigates but t3 cruisers.

What Nikk is trying to imply is that the CovOps ships somehow are PVPing with a handicap, which is not true at all.

If you wish to hide, and you fit a covops cloak, then your ship is at 100% efficiency for its goal.
It is doing exactly what it was designed to do. You can not say that the cloak is a crutch.

That is like saying that an ewar frig is gimped by its array of ewar items. Just cause it doesnt make ships go pop doesnt mean that it's not doing exactly what it was meant for.

So overall I still hold that Nikk is mistaken in his assessment that PVPers bend and PVEers dont. I feel this statement is not based on facts and more on distaste for PVE players in general.


I believe I addressed this point here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5421785#post5421785

You will see miners in the game, whose goal is to mine and profit. But what would be the point of, say, ewar-er? As pvp pilot ultimately you want to destroy enemy ships. And then there is a price to pay for the covops cloak.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#457 - 2015-01-21 23:06:13 UTC
I am sorry you misunderstand the role of your ship and what you have chosen to take into combat. It is not my fault that you somehow feel that a class of ships designed for stealth is also not the ultimate killing machine.

Please stop trying to make it sound like you are some poor helpless PVPer cause you have to equip a cloak on your ship.

So again, you are mistaken in your assessment that PVPers bend and PVEers dont.

Though if you feel cloak is such a hindrance to your ability to hunt PVEer's then you should have no issue with this topic at all. Who knows. Modifications to local and cloak could lead to more PVP. But you dont actually want that. You just want your nice easy kills. I keep forgetting your only interested in PVE targets.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#458 - 2015-01-21 23:13:52 UTC
Haywoud Jablomi wrote:
I am sorry you misunderstand the role of your ship and what you have chosen to take into combat. It is not my fault that you somehow feel that a class of ships designed for stealth is also not the ultimate killing machine.

Please stop trying to make it sound like you are some poor helpless PVPer cause you have to equip a cloak on your ship.

So again, you are mistaken in your assessment that PVPers bend and PVEers dont.

Though if you feel cloak is such a hindrance to your ability to hunt PVEer's then you should have no issue with this topic at all. Who knows. Modifications to local and cloak could lead to more PVP. But you dont actually want that. You just want your nice easy kills. I keep forgetting your only interested in PVE targets.


PVE players have shown time and again that they are by far the least adaptable.
Haywoud Jablomi
Vay Mining Corporation
#459 - 2015-01-21 23:15:43 UTC
Well we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

It's also for a different topic.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? Yes; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP should be completely avoided" "However if you train cloak, you can avoid it all you want." (Modified)
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#460 - 2015-01-21 23:25:33 UTC
Whining about AFK cloaking in relation to any type of 1v1 PVP is completely irrelevant. One cloaked ship is not an issue with AFK cloaking.

The only actual "issues" are being able to indefinitely cloak without effort or while not being at your machine for intel or to serve as a bridge target for hotdrops.