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Crime & Punishment

 
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Announcement From Gorila

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McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#101 - 2014-12-26 11:21:08 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Black Pedro wrote:
... but this sort of feeds the "ganking is bulling" crowd who think it is then ok to demonize other players for engaging in the criminal mini-game coded into Eve on purpose by CCP. Of course I am generalizing a bit, as many (actually, most) of the people in AG don't do this and get that this is just a game and are there to discuss tactics...

You sure about that...

Astecus wrote:
Now, let me elaborate on what Anti-ganking is all about, since there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding this. Anti-ganking as created by me, is about helping people keep their fun when gankers try to steal it. Anti-ganking is not about revenge or calling gankers bad things. Anti-ganking is about helping others, not take advantage of others. Anti-ganking is about treating others with respect, as opposed to the disrespectful nature of ganking.

Taking advantage of others, disrespectful, and stealing people's fun. Straight from the mouth of AG's top dog. Blink

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#102 - 2014-12-26 12:38:38 UTC
I hardly read gankerbumping, but I liked the blogpost with Veers Belvar portrayed as a braying ass.
Its funny because its true.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#103 - 2014-12-26 15:09:35 UTC
Tasspool Harp wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:


I have no intention of thanking people for being lazy greedy or dumb. I suspect it would come across as sarcastic anyway.


My response to the escalation of highsec ganking has been to take my lazy, greedy and dumb miner in a fail-fit retriever to the higher reaches of highsec. It now takes me longer to get replacement ships for forays into lowsec providing content for pirates. On the plus side since I don't have to worry about rats I can spend more time afk or in corp chat. Also im losing ships at a slower rate so my time spent mining is about the same. I do feel somewhat guilty about stripping belts that should be the province of new players but console myself that it is just a consequence of emergent game play and content generation in high sec. To Gorila , I hope you enjoy your FUN and LAUGHs which are coming at the expense of other players' enjoyment of Eve. I just realised I am typing this while the television is on. I better get back to having my eyes glued to the tv screen because heaven forbid that anyone should have a television on but not be watching it constantly.



I am okay with that. As I have said before, I am(reluctantly) okay with people making terrible isk/hr in return for an extremely high level of safety. Players who want to learn, take risks and interact with others can move to the more rewarding areas of the game.
Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2014-12-26 17:11:04 UTC
The "dark side" of highsec is not in the wreck of a freighter, or in a charred corpse formerly home to expensive implants. It's not in the enraged player returning to their computer, mysteriously in a capsule at their home station, or in a polite CODE agent offering what really amounts to advice on how to actually play the game.

The "dark side" of highsec, and of Eve in general, is the teeming masses of players externalizing the consequences of their own actions, and demanding protections of their desired playstyle with total disregard for the risk-reward balance, economic supply and demand, and impact on others' playstyles. The "dark side" is in exploitive highsec industrial corps that seek virtual riches by adhering to a boring, restrictive, and anti-social game experience. They never develop, never get better, and feel entitled to be insulated from the ramifications of that choice. The "dark side" is the thousands of unsubbed trial, new, and even 'veteran' accounts that were never exposed to anything better.

The real players come from all professions - hisec mining included. They learn from their mistakes (or better, from others'), learn the in-game tools, and research and experiment with counters to each of their enemies' tactics. They recognize that without destruction, the market collapses, and they delight in failure the less prepared and less intelligent, as it means more opportunity for their own success.

Don't like CODE? Great, you don't have to. Feelings hurt? This not a game from children, don't act like one. You, and you alone, are responsible for your story. Make it a good one.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2014-12-26 18:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Interesting read gents.

Firstly, the more interested parties already know my stance on AG. Aside from that people like Jenn and Gorilla made AG cool. They were awesome counter parts. Apologies if I missed somebody, there was a weekend between when you mattered and now.

The majority however... Yeah.

If AS is reading this thread. Please check AG more often, everything you stated you want AG to be is not the case. You are gloriously delusional about the state of AG. Yes I am banned from AG but let it be known that I still help out in correcting guys about game mechanics since majority just don't know or just spread false info to satisfy their own agenda. Btw that is why I was originally banned from AG. I got into an argument about how things works was accused of being a code lackey and booted. Shortly after the ban i started deccing corps and actively destroyed rising alliances in AG. With 100% success. Jenn and Gorilla, and only them actively try to keep things decent. However they cannot do that 24/7.

So AS, please have a good long look at how it turned out. Active participants are banned if the point of view differs in anyway to those in power. Yes you have your trolls but there are people from the so called griefing side that do give people good advice on how to fit and survive. Why ban them for helping people survive and learn?

Also stop using the word griefing. It is bannable to grief people. That term is used to much by AG and even PVP crowd to explain what they do.

Veers I have an issue with me being grouped with into one of 2 groups according to your odd rational.

On that note, hope you gents had a good christmas, and it such browsing the forums with a phone. I do apologize if something does not make sense. Responding from a phone sucks.

Gorilla, welcome to the side that plays eve because they enjoy playing eve for what it is... A game.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Lady Areola Fappington
#106 - 2014-12-26 19:35:22 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


For the same reason that RL shoplifters aren't given the death penalty....They suffer consequences from the in-game police and face the shame of their playstyle being labelled as criminal and illegal.



You are...mildly confused here, Veers. You do realise that CCP runs the game, right? I mean, they can change anything they like about it. They are, for lack a better term, God in our little Eve world.


They set the consequences for ganking where they are to encourage interesting gameplay mechanics. By allowing ganking, they are implicitly approving of said playstyle. If they didn't want ganking, they could God Mode it right out of the universe.


Just remember, when you make a values judgement in Eve, you're basing said values off a setting in a database. A number. That number can be changed, arbitrarily, by the owners of the game. In a way, you're just letting CCP do the heavy thinking for you.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#107 - 2014-12-26 19:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tear Jar
Veers makes some good comparisons, but misses the "its a game" component.

IRL if I burn down a competitors pizza shop the guy could go homeless or starve. In game he just needs to grind up a bit and open a new pizza shop.
Azov Rassau
Iron Destiny
#108 - 2014-12-26 19:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Azov Rassau
Veers Belvar wrote:
I'm amused that you think that by playing "Robin Hood" Psychotic Monk is somehow a force for good in the game. Awoxxing is one of the biggest catastrophes in Eve, it preys on new and innocent players, and is the #1 (or maybe #2 after wars) force encouraging people to socially isolate themselves and avoid player run corps in highsec. It's absolutely a terrible part of the game, and CCP itself wants to remove it. How many players have left the game because Psychotic Monk blew up billions of isk of their stuff under false pretenses? I mean seriously - find some new heroes.

I wouldn't call it a 'catastroph'. A good amount of fun-to-read EVE stories and learned-lessons resulted from the awoxing gameplay. Yes, some people were maybe driven away from the game because of it, while many others considered it as an impressive example of what EVE can be, and they wanted to play more.

Also, I never said in my post that I fully support awoxing... The reason why I mentioned Monk as an example was, again, to show that people who do "bad" things in video games are not RL murderers.

I respect CCP's decision about awoxing even though I partially disagree with it. But that is not the subject of this thread anyway.

Be the change you want to see in Highsec.

Anti-Ganking Fun: www.gankerjamming.com
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#109 - 2014-12-26 19:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaely Tanniss
RubberDuckey wrote:
Gorila is a double agent. Just wait he switched sides to try and take down CODE from the inside. Just putting this here so when it happens.


It's an interesting thought, but nothing that has not been considered or evaluated for risk. The thing is, Code is so diverse, there is no way to "take down Code" like any other alliance or corp. The truth is, because of this diversity, no one knows where the heart really lies or what their true numbers are. So in effect, there is no way to take down what is actually an ideal rather than an entity. This is what makes Code strong.

Despite the concerns or hopes that Gorila is some kind of double agent, it would not matter. There is no physical structure for him to "take down"..which is why all attempts to "bring down Code" have and always will fail. Besides, even if it were true, Gorila has and always was a good and respectable opponent..unlike many of the others. His kb now has the blood of the complacent on it. Regardless of his intentions, or the lost hopes of the ag community, Gorila has tasted the true meaning of what Eve is all about. That is a taste that is not so easily washed away. In other words, once you find the fun, you don't go back. Code does not struggle with the issues AG does, they play to have fun...which is after all the whole point of playing a game. Twisted

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Kaely Tanniss
Black Lotus Society.
#110 - 2014-12-26 20:12:32 UTC
Jennifer en Marland wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

You and Jenn should post more often. You two make a good face for your community.


Thanks, I could say the same about you being one of the friendly and likeable CODErs (who are much more common than people realise).

Black Pedro wrote:
My only point (which was made perhaps too sardonically) was that there is some basis to the concerns that the AG channel contains an unhealthy level of toxic expression toward other players,


That's certainly reasonable, I don't like the negativity that crops up in the channel either. And as you allude to a bit later in your post, some of it isn't exactly bannable...but as you can see from the chatlogs, we still try to dissuade people from being too negative. To be totally honest though, isn't it kind of to be expected? People in the channel have been happily mining/missioning/whatever, and suddenly someone blows them up, (perhaps in a way that uses game mechanics they don't understand thanks to CCP's dire new player experience and documentation), and then quite possibly sent them a rude/extortionate message. Even if this hasn't happened to them lately, some people unfortunately still remember how it felt, and keep seeing it happen to other people. I'm not at all condoning the negativity and dislike of gankers, but you can see where it comes from. I'd also like to note that this is the sort of thing that people who gank for tears/trolling/reactions want, so some people's (not necessarily yours) accusations of negativity in AG appear pretty disingenuous imo.

Black Pedro wrote:
not to mention the "banning" of anyone putting forth a less-than-complete opposition to the presence of ganking in the game which I didn't quote.


I can see how it might look like it at first glance, but no. We've grown used to Code alts coming into the channel and pretending to be reasonable people looking for a discussion, when actually they're trolling or looking for a verbal punch-up. Sometimes people are committed supporters of ganking/griefing who want to tell us we're wrong and stick up for their side. Maybe sometimes we make mistakes, and our 'troll-sense' is off; but We certainly do NOT ban people just for not agreeing with us. Which sort of leads to...

Black Pedro wrote:
Then why was my ganker and looting alt that had never spoken a word in AG banned from the channel? Granted this was a while ago, but clearly someone at some point was adding known gankers and thier associates for presumably opsec reasons. Or are all gankers just assumed by the moderators to be boorish trolls by default unworthy of even the chance to say anything? Am I allowed to idle now in the channel on this character now that the ban list has been cleared?


You do seem to be making pejorative assumptions about our motives here. As I stated at the start of my post in my reply to Bebop, we certainly don't assume people are boorish or trolls just because they're gankers. We ban all known gankers and their alts for these reasons, imo: Firstly, people who have recently been ganked look to AG for advice and help after an unpleasant experience they may not understand: If they see there are gankers talking in the channel, possibly the very people who just killed them and then maybe sent a trollmail to them, they're going to be pretty confused and unhappy about it, and understandably so. And secondly: wouldnt it just be a little bit strange and awkward if the anti-ganking community was full of gankers? Blink Seriously though, theres definitely dialogue to be had between gankers and counter-gankers, but our channel isn't the place for it. And thirdly, yes there is the possibility for gankers spreading disinformation/propaganda etc - not necessarily trolling, just metagaming against us. Either way, being pre-emptively isn't any kind of a personal insult against anyone.


Jenn, I was banned not 24 hrs ago..I am not a ganker, I have only ever said something once in the channel, and I certainly do not troll in your channel. In fact, I wasn't even online when the ban happened. I can assume it was not you personally that banned me, but where is the logic in banning those who can offer insight. We are opponents, not enemies. I am just curious where the logic in banning me was simply because it says i support the Code ideals in my bio. This is part of the misdirected hatred that occurs in that community. There are those in AG i respect, but they are few and far between. The majority remind me of my 6 year old complaining how things aren't fair. Wouldn't itmake more sense to allow those familiar with code into the channel, trolls being banned, but allow the exchange of ideals and information that can be critical for success and survival. After all, like I said, we are all opponents, not enemies...and it's a game. I see no reason why we cannot interact in a civil manner..even on the battlefield. Anyways, enough of that...I hope you had a great holiday.Smile

If I had a nickel for every time someone said women don't play eve, I'd have a bag of nickels to whack the next person who said it..
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#111 - 2014-12-26 22:26:43 UTC
Jennifer en Marland wrote:
A lot of reasonable stuff....


Whoa. Whoa.... WHOA!

You mean JEM is a real player and not some level 85 end boss who shows up and obliterates me when I'm innocently bumping a bot aspirant?

Talk about RL threats. The only thing I hate worse than seeing Jennifer en Marland in local is NOT seeing her until I'm in structure.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#112 - 2014-12-26 22:45:37 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
If AS is reading this thread. Please check AG more often, everything you stated you want AG to be is not the case. You are gloriously delusional about the state of AG. Yes I am banned from AG but let it be known that I still help out in correcting guys about game mechanics since majority just don't know or just spread false info to satisfy their own agenda. Btw that is why I was originally banned from AG. I got into an argument about how things works was accused of being a code lackey and booted. Shortly after the ban i started deccing corps and actively destroyed rising alliances in AG. With 100% success. Jenn and Gorilla, and only them actively try to keep things decent. However they cannot do that 24/7.

So AS, please have a good long look at how it turned out. Active participants are banned if the point of view differs in anyway to those in power. Yes you have your trolls but there are people from the so called griefing side that do give people good advice on how to fit and survive. Why ban them for helping people survive and learn?

I assume by "AS" you mean Astecus. You were banned primarily for specifically picking your war targets from the AG channel. That’s not my own, maybe misguided, impression: even your own people confirmed that. Not that it matters who banned you, as we discussed it internally at the time, but I just looked it up: Astecus himself did it.

And in old EVE tradition I can confirm that you’re not a "code lackey":

- You didn’t have an active gank alt in CODE. called "Kane The Barbarian". Nope.
- You didn’t wardec tons of clueless newbie and/or industrial corps that tried to oppose CODE. Nope.
- You didn’t join CODE. with your "Cannibal Kane" character to help out during wars several times. Nope.
- You didn't ... nvm

Not a "code lackey". Nope.

But keep spreading your fairy tales. It’s christmas after all.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2014-12-26 22:49:52 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Alistair Ormund and Veers Belvar are "good guys" as they believe there is a justification for leveling RL threats against players for winning at PvP conflict.

Do I think folks should respond with RL death threats? Nope.

Did I suggest that you did? Reading is hard.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2014-12-26 22:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
If AS is reading this thread. Please check AG more often, everything you stated you want AG to be is not the case. You are gloriously delusional about the state of AG. Yes I am banned from AG but let it be known that I still help out in correcting guys about game mechanics since majority just don't know or just spread false info to satisfy their own agenda. Btw that is why I was originally banned from AG. I got into an argument about how things works was accused of being a code lackey and booted. Shortly after the ban i started deccing corps and actively destroyed rising alliances in AG. With 100% success. Jenn and Gorilla, and only them actively try to keep things decent. However they cannot do that 24/7.

So AS, please have a good long look at how it turned out. Active participants are banned if the point of view differs in anyway to those in power. Yes you have your trolls but there are people from the so called griefing side that do give people good advice on how to fit and survive. Why ban them for helping people survive and learn?

I assume by "AS" you mean Astecus. You were banned primarily for specifically picking your war targets from the AG channel. That’s not my own, maybe misguided, impression: even your own people confirmed that. Not that it matters who banned you, as we discussed it internally at the time, but I just looked it up: Astecus himself did it.

And in old EVE tradition I can confirm that you’re not a "code lackey":

- You didn’t have an active gank alt in CODE. called "Kane The Barbarian". Nope.
- You didn’t wardec tons of clueless newbie and/or industrial corps that tried to oppose CODE. Nope.
- You didn’t join CODE. with your "Cannibal Kane" character to help out during wars several times. Nope.
- You didn't ... nvm

Not a "code lackey". Nope.

But keep spreading your fairy tales. It’s christmas after all.


You are a prime example of whats wrong in AG.

Read again. I only started my wars on anti code corps and corps in AG in general after I got banned. Hell i have been wardeccing since day 5 of playing eve. I just think AG deserved special attention after the boot. You know ... Since you are such an understanding bunch.

And so what if I used my resources to play eve the way I play it? Still makes me more qualified than you to share knowledge. I am touched that you yourself came out to respond directly to me though. Your points are irrelevant as you can see, everybody thinks AG is a joke and you the court jester.

From now on each corp i dec and people ask why. I will say with complements from YOU. Or just tell them i got hired by you to attack them.

Because i can.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#115 - 2014-12-26 23:03:00 UTC
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Jenn, I was banned not 24 hrs ago..

Yeah, sorry about that. I only managed to fully restore the ban list a couple of hours ago, so there was a window of maybe 36 hours when you were allowed to join.

Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Wouldn't itmake more sense to allow those familiar with code into the channel, trolls being banned, but allow the exchange of ideals and information that can be critical for success and survival. After all, like I said, we are all opponents, not enemies...and it's a game. I see no reason why we cannot interact in a civil manner..even on the battlefield.

It's not as if we haven't tried that in the very beginning, but it turned out that "those familiar with code" were almost congruent with "trolls being banned", so we decided to generally ban CODE., their alts and supporters among others. Since then the channel is *much* easier to handle.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2014-12-26 23:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Jenn, I was banned not 24 hrs ago..

Yeah, sorry about that. I only managed to fully restore the ban list a couple of hours ago, so there was a window of maybe 36 hours when you were allowed to join.

Kaely Tanniss wrote:
Wouldn't itmake more sense to allow those familiar with code into the channel, trolls being banned, but allow the exchange of ideals and information that can be critical for success and survival. After all, like I said, we are all opponents, not enemies...and it's a game. I see no reason why we cannot interact in a civil manner..even on the battlefield.

It's not as if we haven't tried that in the very beginning, but it turned out that "those familiar with code" were almost congruent with "trolls being banned", so we decided to generally ban CODE., their alts and supporters among others. Since then the channel is *much* easier to handle.


I would prefer to have my main in channel rather than my alts.

Actually, i will make this offer. I will not wardec any corp in AG if I am unbanned. I will then be able to offer advice which i currently do via email in channel instead of just a round about way. My targets have always considered me extremely reasonable which is why alot of them come to me for assistance. How reasonable are you?

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#117 - 2014-12-26 23:49:38 UTC
I'm happy to see Gorila finally join in on the fun part of the game. You did a good job as an anti-ganker under difficult circumstances and now you claimed your rightful place as a true Champion of Highsec in our elite PvP corp. I'm looking forward to good times with you in corp and fleet.

I would also like to take some time to thank our undercover Agent Veers Belvar, as he once again did a brilliant job at turning our worst enemies into friends. Thank you Veers, not only for the CODE. corp rosters you fill, but for all the people who donate money to the New Order because of your important work as a forum troll. It's not that we couldn't do this without you, but you are certainly a valued contributor to the cause. Keep up the good work, it enables James 315 to supply so many newbro gankers with the money they need for their Catalysts.

Evil RatKid
Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
#118 - 2014-12-27 00:04:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alastair Ormand wrote:

Don't try and make the victims of your ganks look like bad people.


I don't, they do it themselves. Frequently in local.

Quote:

You've just destroyed something they may have spent hours working for, in a few seconds.


In a PvP game. It is not only expected, but encouraged.


Quote:
Not everyone can shrug off something like that.


Then why are they playing a PvP game?


Quote:

Hell you killing them may even mean they cannot buy the PLEX to continue playing for another month, driving subs away from the game and making our community smaller.



And you trying to deny people the right to PvP in a PvP game will lead to people quitting from boredom, making our community smaller.

Although only my assertion is in fact backed up with CCP's numbers about retention. The bottom line is that PvE centric playstyles are hurting the game.


Then why does CONCORD even exist in the first place? If this game is 100% focused on PvP why does CONCORD actively prevent it? Not always succesfully. But they do stop unauthorized PvP from happening.

I discourage running with scissors.
Alastair Ormand
Mine all the things
#119 - 2014-12-27 00:06:31 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Alastair Ormand wrote:
You're disappointed with the real life death threats you're recieveing? I had a CODE pilot fly through my highsec system before with the title, Tear Collector. Now that tells me you're expecting people to react violently when you gank them and from succesful ganks I've seen happen in my mining system, you actively poke fun at the person who dies.

Don't try and make the victims of your ganks look like bad people. You've just destroyed something they may have spent hours working for, in a few seconds. What do you expect is going to happen? Not everyone can shrug off something like that. Hell you killing them may even mean they cannot buy the PLEX to continue playing for another month, driving subs away from the game and making our community smaller.

I can never take a bunch of self obessed bunch of violence inducing fools like CODE seriously. Hell even after I provided a reasonable response to a thread CODE was taking part in you guys just started trolling and then wardecced my alliance with unrealistic demands.

Awaiting your response.

Alastair
People who call for RL violence against other players over game play, do not have any place in the gaming community. They are bad and trying to turn it around and justify their behaviour, only places you in their camp.

Twisted moral high ground dwellers, should be treated with the contempt they deserve.


But it's actively encouraged by CODE after completing a gank which is even worse.

I discourage running with scissors.
Dar'Nalaa
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2014-12-27 00:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dar'Nalaa
Well I must say that was a good read, just like to add it's been great to get to know many of you over the last few weeks from both sides , me and my small team of returning player, we will be putting our lot in with The AG group, our plan is to provide support for victims in the form of gank fleets to gank the gankers, to this we will add the supporter's, alts, and anyone helping them out.

Thxs to the team for all the intell and spying over the past week's and to the community for its support.
Money and ships coming out of my ears

On that note I'll say happy holidays to all and look forward to ganking some of you soon

(remember it's a game, alway keep it that way)

Dar'Nalaa