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Industry Teams - Current Plans

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Silenar
Floating-Point Operations
appetite of nothing
#121 - 2014-12-05 01:15:27 UTC
I actually enjoy teams, but it's situational that they're actually useful. The 0.5% and 1% ME cap building teams can trim off a bunch of parts due to how rounding works with materials. Likewise, discounts affecting things built in large quantities, such as fuel blocks or cap parts, are great.

Other teams, such as drone teams, for example, are terrible. Because of how ME is calculated, a 2% material reduction doesn't actually result in a 2% reduction in cost for T2 drones, and 2% off of T1 drones means that to make enough off of the team to justify paying the *minimum* bid you'd have to create a few months sales worth of T1 drones.

I don't think the problem with teams not being used that CCP is seeing is because teams in general are bad, its because the majority of team types aren't worth it. And industry guys, more than almost anyone else in eve, are looking at the bottom line. If it doesn't turn me a profit, why bother with it?
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#122 - 2014-12-05 03:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sharon Tate
Not sorry to see them go to be honest:

- Auction system is terrible
- Way too many useless teams.

Yeah, I could factor in what was worth it vs what wasn't, but to be honest, for the stuff I build, most of the time the gains were minimal. I never bothered with TE bonus teams because if I kick off a build before bedtime, what's the difference if it finishes 2 hours before I wake up or hour? I'm still asleep...

Edit: To be honest, I'd rather see dev efforts thrown in to fixing the buggy industry UI. It's slow, buggy, and while infinitely easier to use than the old Industry UI, could use a lot of improvement.
Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#123 - 2014-12-05 03:09:52 UTC
Also... I think one problem with teams is that they're probably best used when figuring out what's most profitable to build, versus how they might actually be used.

For example, I'll use various tools and so on to figure out what I want to be building. I don't factor teams into this (unless in the rare case there happens to be one in system). Once I have the item figured out, then I'll go look for a team.

This is where the auction sucks. If I don't find a team available in the next couple of hours, I move on. I might look again if I remember. Maybe it's because the auction interface is terrible. Who knows.

Why not do it the other way? Find a really good team and then find something to build with it? Effort, to be honest. If you figure isk per hour of effort, figuring teams adds way too much effort.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#124 - 2014-12-05 03:29:52 UTC
Given the large post count on this thread it seems that my earlier thread should have been posted to S&I instead F&ID
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5234185
Caldari 5 wrote:
Was chatting at Eve Down Under with CCP Rise about this.

Apparently Teams aren't being used enough on Jobs

So here's a couple of Ideas to add to it:
- Increase the number of low level Teams, like the 0.5% and 1.0% Improvement Teams.

- Change the way bids are placed to an option to Auto Bid style where you set a max that you are willing to put in and the bids put in auto bid against each other in increments till there is a winner, have this happen when the team is at final stage of bidding, giving a nerf to the snipping that happens atm.

Caldari 5 wrote:
Was waiting for the flight home and thought of a different solution to the Sniping issue, if the Auction has less than 30min remaining and a bid it made, increase the time remaining to 1hour (Time frames used are just an indicator to the main idea)


I still haven't read the entire thread, But I have read the Blue posts.

As a though I wonder how many people are "Casual Industrialists" verses "Hardcore Industrialists" and the usage of Team based on that. Because a casual guy might only use a team if it is already in system because they aren't planning ahead of what they are manufacturing or researching, whereas the hardcore guy would. I know that I probably tend toward the casual side on manufacturing and towards the hardcore guy on research.

Not to mention the teams that rarely get bid on eg time reduction teams for manufacture(these teams rarely have any effect on the casual guy)
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#125 - 2014-12-05 04:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
I would say keep them in game as they are, with a disclaimer that they won't be improved any time soon (expect maybe do a few improvements to the bid system).
Some people use teams, and they get a small benefit from it. Most people don't, and obviously won't be affected either way. Removing them negatively impacts some players while does not impact most, while keeping them in game positively impacts a few players while does not impact most... I, for instance, use teams on a few specific items I manufacture.
So unless you can point to specific harms that would be created by keeping teams that outweigh the benefit of the player base that uses them, there's no good reason to remove them.
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#126 - 2014-12-05 04:28:01 UTC
Teams are actually essential for ship invention to be reasonably profitable.
Without teams many ships sit well below 200k isk/h per slot.


The main problem with teams is how the auctioning was implemented.
Acquiring teams is not only a question of having the means to buy them.
It requires the player to adapt his real life to the auction cycles.
That goes a bit far.

Another problem is that it is impossible to analyze the teams and
their availability in game without going through every single entry.


If teams are just removed, ship prices will probably go up by quite a bit.

Also with slots being universally available,
teams are one of the few variables that allow a dedicated industrialist to get an edge over his casual competition.

Improve the auctioning System or remove it, but keep the teams.


Suggestion
It is rather late night here, but allow me to sketch out an idea:

The number of Teams is reduced to a couple of dozens,
Teams are ad-dons that can be attached to a system for a minimum of 4 weeks by paying a fee.

The fee is based on a prediction of the profits the could would create for its specific basket of products.
So the fee will be a relevant amount of money.

Example: A team for HACs results in average reduced costs of 5 mio ISK per Slot/Day.
For one Character with 10 Slots over 30 days that amounts to 1,5 Billion ISK.
The Fee to hire that team is then set to a reasonable percentage of that amount,
factoring in variables like underproduction because of the impact of real life on slot management.
The percentage should still be high enough, that disruption of production would result in a meaningful loss of investment.
If we assume that percentage is 30%, then the Fee for hiring said team for 4 weeks would be 450 Million ISK.

Each team has a basis range of stats, that are modified randomly to a certain degree after they are hired.
The type and quality of the base stats, the fee and the potential range of the random modification define the individual teams.

The map shows where teams exist.
Everyone in a system can use the teams present.

This idea allows dedicated industrialists to invest money into the creation of production centers that give them a competitive advantage.
It creates a topography of loci of production in the game world.
The random modification of the base stats provides competitive momentum between the production centers.
It ensures that your investment is worth it, but prevents one from always having the best.
The fact that everyone in a system can use the teams creates opportunities for economic cooperation:
If you hire team A, I will hire team B ...
A production center with lots of money invested in teams, becomes not only more efficient but also more vulnerable.
Since a meaningful amount of money is invested any disruption of production actually costs the industrialist money.
Waging war and defending ones investment become actually part of industrial life.
stummerman
Perfidious Albion
Stellar Fusion
#127 - 2014-12-05 07:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: stummerman
The idea of teams wasn't bad but its came at the wrong time.

Their introduction came when there was so much change that production has been turned upside down.

Some teams are useless because the items they modify currently sell for less than their mineral costs so not point building said item.

Markets were totally screwed overnight and it will take many months still for them to resettle. Because of this , many industrialists ceased all production.

Right now many new and continuing Industrialist will not invest time in non profitable production which is why they are not used.

Last minute sniping is the only way to secure a useful team.

If you want people to bid on a team, use a secret ballot bid system so when the time is up, all bids are revealed.

Will eliminate sniping.

Whether you remove them or amend, it will take a long time for markets to adjust due to stock piled items from rich market manipulators and windfall T2 bpc owners.
BugraT WarheaD
#128 - 2014-12-05 08:00:22 UTC
Man that's such a shame.

Yes the feature certainly need change, but it isn't broken and doesn't need complete removal.
Circumstantial Evidence
#129 - 2014-12-05 10:38:57 UTC
The heavy industry players who are bidding billions to save even more billions, are probably few in number, compared to the amount of explanation required to new players & small producers - to help them understand the feature, and discover their personal savings might not be enough to justify the work involved in hauling materials to where the better teams are installed.
Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#130 - 2014-12-05 13:13:53 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
It's a shame that the feature is being removed, but with the low usage, and the problems with it, it's better to remove it until a team has the time to work on it properly, rather than leaving it in a half working state. Sad


I thought that was CCP's philosophy.....as a number of "features" are in a half working state.

CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.
J3ST3R
Dark Light Inc
Caretakers
#131 - 2014-12-05 18:08:36 UTC
Great so now with it off the table
Your team can now work on "bulk corp votes for locking and unlocking bpo's"
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#132 - 2014-12-05 19:08:30 UTC
Aww. I had just finished writing an Android app to automatically set up alarms for my team-sniping needs.
It's a bit surprising to hear the part about single-figure percentage use in manufacturing though, when my personal profit margin consists of pretty much just team bonuses.
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#133 - 2014-12-05 19:21:32 UTC
probag Bear wrote:
Aww. I had just finished writing an Android app to automatically set up alarms for my team-sniping needs.
It's a bit surprising to hear the part about single-figure percentage use in manufacturing though, when my personal profit margin consists of pretty much just team bonuses.

I put some development effort into writing a web-based tracker too based on the CREST API data, it's a bit galling that there's a possibility it's going to be wasted effort.

--
SJ Astralana
Syncore
#134 - 2014-12-05 19:52:34 UTC
Blast. I made 14bil net gain on teams. The only part of the team system that seemed really bad is it let me really put the screws to the small producers, but then I saw a couple small producers get quite large using teams themselves. I liked the market pvp aspect of it. I don't know who operates out of Zatsyaki, but his two 6.5% hull teams stand there like flag with a big f-you emblem.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#135 - 2014-12-05 19:54:54 UTC
I for one am actually fairly happy with Teams.

The only things I would like to see change are as follows:

- Bid Tracking - this needs to be much simpler and intuitive.
- Team Ability Sorting - I would like to be able to sort Teams by the type of bonus they give (Material cost or Build time) as well as the bonus amount.
- Link Teams to individual 'Facilities' rather than systems - This would include POS's, so if you wanted to personally benefit from a Team, you could hire them to work in your POS, rather than a local station.

On a side note, to encourage the use of POS's for industry, why not apply a bonus for the use of teams in POS manufacturing arrays? Lets say a 33% increase in Team effectiveness?

Friends
Sma Zakalwe
Perkone
Caldari State
#136 - 2014-12-05 22:25:35 UTC
WTF? I just won my first team auction, with a decent impact on profit margin...
oodell
Rotciv Rrama Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2014-12-05 23:03:52 UTC
Please reconsider removing this feature.

It's entirely avoidable for people that do not wish to utilize the teams, and super useful for those who wish to add complexity and planning for a small or medium benefit.
Sarai Adina
Adult Beverages
#138 - 2014-12-05 23:38:56 UTC
Never liked the feature or the concept. Likewise adding additional cost fluctuation over times in the same systems when using POS or station is bothersome.

Both are bad features that make calculation of profit a PIA. Get rid of them and fix the lag and hanging in the industry tool.

Remember the retooling was to reduce complexity on production. In reality, adding dynamic features increases complexity.

Too many half baked ideas and comments coming out of CCP these days.
probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#139 - 2014-12-06 00:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: probag Bear
Oh wait, I forgot to include this in my original post.


I am frankly appalled by the removal of teams from the game, as this means I will actually have to start caring about the system cost index, which will probably drive me back to running out of 8 POSes instead of 1. How will I put PLEXes on my all of my characters' plates??

From a game design point of view though, it makes absolute sense. Teams were envisioned as one opposing force in a "push and pull" dynamic industrial landscape. Right now they "pull" only a tiny bit, but mostly serve to completely negate the "push" (increased system cost index) by those who actually read the devblog on cost indices and understand how absurd it is to that station modifiers are applied outside the square root.

And though I'm always going to miss the Hyperion days, when the industry UI worked perfectly and I had 40,000 BPCs neatly containered inside a single faction POS, it was pretty ridiculous. At my peak, I estimated myself at ~0.2% of the total number of manufacturing jobs installed in Eve, despite most of those jobs being 24h+. I doubt that's the kind of gameplay you want to encourage.

Edit:
#yolo; 1bil to the first person to eve message me the name of the system I operate out of. It should be pretty simple to track down, and I'm curious if anyone actually reading this thread Bragging is fun.

Edit 2:
1bil sent.
Juli Paris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-12-06 06:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Juli Paris
Need blue post to confirm our tears are too great to remove teams. Clearly it's obvious that we don't want you to take them, from feedback here in this thread.

All the suggestions on how to actually fix the problem are great, too. Like fixing the ****** bidding and removing all the ****** teams nobody bothers using etc, while educating and expanding awareness.