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Industry Teams - Current Plans

First post First post
Author
Andy Koraka
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-12-04 21:18:44 UTC
TBH it's not like they hurt Industry in any way, you're free to ignore teams completely. If you want them to be used it's pretty easy to have an intern tweak a few numbers to make them more compelling.

Personally I think it would be cool to have strong ME teams with a build time drawback proportional to the ME savings. Likewise have High TE teams (like 25-30% faster) with a minor ME drawback. It would be a real choice to pick between a much better margin built slowly and a smaller margin with much higher production volume.
Callic Veratar
#102 - 2014-12-04 21:26:56 UTC
The main reason I never used teams was that I was operating independently as a manufacturer and never manufacture in quantities that would make the extra cost of hiring a team efficient. The auction system kept it permanently out of my reach as the random chance as I was never willing to wade into it.

Reintroducing teams as they exist now would be very valuable. The primary change should be the removal of the auction system to replace it with a deterministic system.

My proposal is the introduction of a new set of PI modules that allow a player to set up a team in a system or constellation. Much like POCOs, the player gets to set the price and the rates so to make a competitive team, you'd need to set up a base that, based on it's configuration, would allow specialization of specific types of research, whether it's manufacturing of guns or researching hulls or whatever.

To make it not passive, give it a fuel system, whether it's PI goo or fuel blocks or whatever, it doesn't matter. As long as it has fuel, research can be started using the team.

More stuff done by players is better. Give us the power to make the teams. (Maybe even stocking them with people or slaves or whatever from the market). I'd gladly maintain a team in my system if it meant I would get a cut of the profits.
Cae Lara
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-12-04 21:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cae Lara
Rivr Luzade wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
We have done some initial investigation and It is clear that bringing it up to the quality standards you should expect of us is a large project.

If I may ask: Which standards have we come to and should expect from you?


'Should' is not the same as 'do'. People do expect CCP to leave things in a shambles and let the players sort it out with 3rd party tools and sheer obstinance. They've evidently decided to go in a different direction to try and earn some higher expectations from their playerbase. They had some specific effect in mind and teams aren't really affecting the metrics they want them to so they're nixing the project until they can make sure it does..

Which feels odd for eve..

EVE players will somehow manage to make lemonade if they're given lemon shaped rocks. Seeing CCP go and snatch a few people's crappy lemon rocks is strange. It's doubly strange because we've already seen stories emerge from the team mechanic...

I can understand their logic to a certain extent. I would much rather see a proper rework or a removal of a feature as opposed to some sloppy quick-fix. And being willing to remove a feature that doesn't work is a good sign... But in this instance I think they should just leave teams untouched until they have the resources to devote to a rework.
EMT Holding
EMT Holding Corporation
#104 - 2014-12-04 21:29:20 UTC
Fifth Blade wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:

In summary we can only realistically look at two options here:


  • Leave them as is (yes it would be cool to do X or Y, but realistically we cannot)
  • Remove them

I hope you realise that the consequence of removing teams and leaving in index costs is that you make medium - large scale industry unprofitable. Your options with industry will now be limited to producing one tormentor and going home or face losing isk. sigh

While i appreciate that the feature wasn't going to be fixed anytime soon (this was the only time since 2003 that industry has had any real improvement). Removing teams (the only way to compensate for index costs) and leaving index costs will leave it more broken than ever.

This. Many times this. Having a large scale industry operation drives the index so high that you can get to the point where some/all items are just unprofitable. The economy doesn't run on people dipping their toes in industry, it relies on big players to produce large volumes of items. Teams at least helped claw some profit back.
Intaktus
Incognito Mode
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2014-12-04 22:01:03 UTC
Another vote to keep the teams at least as they are
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#106 - 2014-12-04 22:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Leave it in.

Sometimes the teams are useful, for those few industrialists that go the extra step.

And wasnt there a case of someone blowing up a 40bil tower over a POS fuel cost reduction team or something?

Leave it in, even if feature sees only marginal use, still its a feature.

The basic problem is that bonuses are too marginal. 1-4% here and there is not much of a bonus.
oodell
Rotciv Rrama Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2014-12-04 22:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: oodell
Pretty disappointed with this change. Teams give people who have the foresight to plan a month in advance an edge. It lets you specialize into certain industries, but it also locks you into your choices to a certain extent. What if you blow a ton of isk on a team only for that item to sink in profitability for a month? That's the risk. What if your system index goes too high and you need to move? Another risk. On the other hand, you could be producing items for 5% less if you make the RIGHT choices and plan ahead. You can also make terrible choices and actually lose isk. I think this is great.

There is also a PVP element. You can, for the first time, see where your competition is coming from. For example, using teams, I have identified the production systems of two super heavy producers. I have unironically been considering using an altcorp or merc corp to wardec them and demand they stop production in my field. This isn't possible without teams.

You can also simply spam bids on teams to block everyone else at a huge expense to yourself - but maybe it's worth it to you. Again, more interesting potential choices.

Removing teams removes a lot of choice from production, and industry goes back to very linear gameplay - ie. is X item profitable or not -> pick cheapest station to build in.

They also have a huge positive effect on nullsec industry. With distances comes cost. In Deklein, our freighter service costs are around 300-400isk/m3. This means that a battleship costs 15-18mil to export for sale. Even with T2, importing essential moon materials, low end minerals and invention materials costs a significant amount of isk that isn't even remotely a factor in highsec. I know other nullsec regions are much further and therefore much less viable for production due to import costs. Teams make up for this huge drawback by lowering material requirements and helping the margin. The other problem with nullsec is the limited number of production systems in a region, which causes much higher indexes in certain systems than you might see in a typical highsec system.

The only thing I'd like to MAYBE see changes is the auction system - sniping kind of sucks. But even there - it could give the little guy the chance to snipe a bargain team that the big guys fell asleep on - a more structured auction system would disable that. And if you really want the team, you don't need to try to lowball snipe it. Drop your wallet on the table and pay up properly. The distribution of teams could also get a rebalance - there seem to be way too many TE teams, and certain teams ike components are lacking.

If people aren't using the teams, it's their fault for failing to realize the potential. You can get low-mid range teams for very cheap - there are enough of them that anyone should be able to get a benefit.
Bytestorm
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#108 - 2014-12-04 22:33:29 UTC
I didn't use teams because I have a job to do. I want to do this job now. Not in two weeks, when the auction finishes. And after two weeks I lost the auction and have to try another one. Which I also loose. So I wait week after week in the hope to finally start the job I have all my resources ready.

Teams only work for industrials that run full-time-production rebuilding the same items for weeks or months. I don't think thats the majority.

My solution? Seed teams randomly to systems. And increase their bonuses by 100-200% to make it worth running after them.
X ATM092
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#109 - 2014-12-04 22:38:27 UTC
Don't remove teams, fix auctions.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5225400#post5225400

With the increased build costs getting punitive in some areas teams are the only way to offset that and reward centralised industry.
Fifth Blade
Jump Drive Appreciation Society
#110 - 2014-12-04 22:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Fifth Blade
I agree with a lot of what oodell pointed out, but to expand on this specific part:
oodell wrote:

If people aren't using the teams, it's their fault for failing to realize the potential. You can get low-mid range teams for very cheap - there are enough of them that anyone should be able to get a benefit.

The two major issues with this are, imo:

  1. The interface isn't very discoverable and
  2. Auctions are a pain

Auctions could easily be fixed - literally copy the method used for contracts and provide a watch-list of the teams you have bid on, so that you can track them. The interface discoverability is something that can be fixed over time. This certainly is not a good argument for removing the entire system, which works in a number of interesting ways.

Finally, as no alternative has been mentioned, this would leave an incredibly broken half-system behind which relied on teams existing to function (indexes preventing industry at any non-minimal scale). Lets say you remove both teams and indexes? Then you go back to the old scramble for a Jita POS, with no reason to distribute production throughout the universe. Incredibly broken.

tl;dr
Removing an imperfect system for an entirely broken one is a bad idea.
X ATM092
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#111 - 2014-12-04 22:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: X ATM092
Also I think it's kind of hilarious that CCP are now looking at their past work and going "Does this actually work as intended? Did we implement this really badly? Do any of our design choices here make any kind of sense?". That's not what eve is about. EVE is about, as the man above excellently put it, making lemonade out of the lemon shaped rocks CCP throw at the player base. If you're actually going to try and be good at your jobs then God help us all, there is next to nothing in EVE which works as it should and teams are actually on the fruity end of the lemon shaped rock spectrum.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#112 - 2014-12-04 23:00:30 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
Also I think it's kind of hilarious that CCP are now looking at their past work and going "Does this actually work as intended? Did we implement this really badly? Do any of our design choices here make any kind of sense?". That's not what eve is about. EVE is about, as the man above excellently put it, making lemons out of the lemon shaped rocks CCP throw at the player base. If you're actually going to try and be good at your jobs then God help us all, there is next to nothing in EVE which works as it should and teams are actually on the fruity end of the lemon shaped rock spectrum.


indeed CCP would have too pull so many things that don't work as intended it wouldn't be worth playing anymore there wouldn't be much left .. oh SOV isn't working as intended remove it ... etc etc....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#113 - 2014-12-04 23:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
What about blind auctions with punters contributing to a pool per system?

Thus if I place a bid for Team X with 2% off material costs of cruisers in Eystur, that bid goes into a pool bidding for Team X in Eystur.

This is how i thought the system was supposed to work :(
Javajunky
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-12-04 23:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Javajunky
+1 for opening up and saying something I mean really that's just a solid move. It would be nice if some of the other developers had that kind approach.

Moving on...
Teams are a solid concept but I didn't feel like the % adjustments were worth it. While finding out where the Fuel Block teams were lead to a few hilarious pos kills, (hint don't buy the best fuel block team and put up a bond in markets with the same character), I wasn't really that jazzed about making the investment. In a null sec, keeping the materials flowing to get full benefit of the team rental is pretty difficult (especially with the space AIDS everyone gets now with jump drives).

How about teams to improve Null Sec Systems? Say I-Hub teams that can modify to get better grav sites, anomalies, WH or DED Complexes, the mechanics that would normally be improved with low security level ratings. There's so much useless null sec space out there, you could use this as a way to modify that and I could see those being rather competitive and really turn it into an ISK sink.

Team (A) -0.2
Team (B) -0.4
Team (C) -0.6

Just a thought...
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#115 - 2014-12-04 23:33:02 UTC
Without support for true bidding wars this was a useless feature that only padded the pockets of those rich from sources outside of manufacturing
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2014-12-04 23:43:08 UTC
I don't like this. The teams idea is fine and cool. The problem is the implementation. There are many things wrong with teams, and that's why they aren't used:

1. They are hard to bid for. It took me several minutes to notice the drop-down, and I already knew what I was looking for.

2. The bids system is ridicolous. They should be short and regular auctions, with blind bids. Right now it's all about being on-line when an auction ends. There's no point on bidding if you're not able to do that.

3. Most bonuses are pointless. I'm not going to bid for a 1% research time team unless I plan to research multiple multiple-months-long BPOs. Which I usually don't, and I'm one of those weirdos who does production. Most people in EVE don't even produce. So you are looking at a small fraction of an already small fraction.
Hell, if I planned to do that much research I would pay for a decent team, not that bunch of losers.

4. The one time I tried to bid on a team to check it out, I won the bid... Then POF, the team vanished out of existence. It wasn't on active teams (yes I set all parameters open) and neither it was in active biddings. Obviously I didn't know if I had to wait for it to be delivered to station, so it was even more confusion. This hasn't increased my willingness to try again.
Juli Paris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#117 - 2014-12-04 23:44:26 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Hello Industrialists,

As part of the Crius Industry release, a feature was added that most of you are probably familiar with called Teams. This feature allows you to hire teams of specialist NPC workers to boost your industry jobs for a price.

Since then we have been closely tracking all related Industry metrics and dials and it is apparent to us that since going live usage of the feature on TQ has been very low relative to its goals (with single figure percentage use in manufacturing jobs and near nonexistent use in research). So while we definitely think that the core idea behind the feature is a good one and brings value to the game and you, in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity. We have done some initial investigation and It is clear that bringing it up to the quality standards you should expect of us is a large project. A project which at this time is not the highest priority for us against some of the other things we are looking at. Given this, we believe the right thing for EVE and it’s players is to remove the Teams feature from the game over the next few months until such a time as we can properly revisit it.

Our rollout plan for this would be to disable the seeding of new teams by the end of 2014, and to disable the UI features in one of the first releases of 2015. That being said, we want your input and feedback on what is ultimately a fairly unprecedented course of action for us. While we feel we have done our due diligence additional context from you is always appreciated.

Thanks for reading,
Team Game of Drones



Pls no.

Get off my teams and get out, go do something else. They are lovely.

You are basically saying 'people are too silly to recognise how good they are, and so we are deleting them'.

The problem here does not lie with the teams being or not being in the game, but lies with education on how to use them and their benefits, especially in particular circumstance.

The changes made recently, including the team dynamic, have returned me and others I know to industry to a large scale, and I fear that especially for big industry players who rely on small margins on great values, that without teams, it simply will not be worth the effort.

Take a large industrial guy running in a system, with say, several builders. The installation costs through the value of his product soar, and this can be countered by the clever use of teams. By adding scaling production costs in the form of increasing install costs, and not allowing a counterbalance, it reaches a stage where large scale industry becomes pointless for the isk/hr it generates when compared to less important for the game things, like ratting or incursions.

Please consider a different approach of education and awareness, instead of scorched earth madness.
oodell
Rotciv Rrama Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2014-12-04 23:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: oodell
Juli Paris wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Hello Industrialists,

As part of the Crius Industry release, a feature was added that most of you are probably familiar with called Teams. This feature allows you to hire teams of specialist NPC workers to boost your industry jobs for a price.

Since then we have been closely tracking all related Industry metrics and dials and it is apparent to us that since going live usage of the feature on TQ has been very low relative to its goals (with single figure percentage use in manufacturing jobs and near nonexistent use in research). So while we definitely think that the core idea behind the feature is a good one and brings value to the game and you, in its current state it is adding the wrong type of complexity. We have done some initial investigation and It is clear that bringing it up to the quality standards you should expect of us is a large project. A project which at this time is not the highest priority for us against some of the other things we are looking at. Given this, we believe the right thing for EVE and it’s players is to remove the Teams feature from the game over the next few months until such a time as we can properly revisit it.

Our rollout plan for this would be to disable the seeding of new teams by the end of 2014, and to disable the UI features in one of the first releases of 2015. That being said, we want your input and feedback on what is ultimately a fairly unprecedented course of action for us. While we feel we have done our due diligence additional context from you is always appreciated.

Thanks for reading,
Team Game of Drones



Pls no.

Get off my teams and get out, go do something else. They are lovely.

You are basically saying 'people are too silly to recognise how good they are, and so we are deleting them'.

The problem here does not lie with the teams being or not being in the game, but lies with education on how to use them and their benefits, especially in particular circumstance.

The changes made recently, including the team dynamic, have returned me and others I know to industry to a large scale, and I fear that especially for big industry players who rely on small margins on great values, that without teams, it simply will not be worth the effort.

Take a large industrial guy running in a system, with say, several builders. The installation costs through the value of his product soar, and this can be countered by the clever use of teams. By adding scaling production costs in the form of increasing install costs, and not allowing a counterbalance, it reaches a stage where large scale industry becomes pointless for the isk/hr it generates when compared to less important for the game things, like ratting or incursions.

Please consider a different approach of education and awareness, instead of scorched earth madness.


Agreed. After I explain the benefit of teams to people they quickly realize the potential. There is an accessibility/education gap.

Teams have added a lot of dynamic to otherwise linear gameplay (Other than system index which is easily avoided in highsec, and unavoidable in nullsec)

I see only two problems....
1) Auction system isn't great (but does have some merits)
2) There are way too many useless 1% TE teams and not enough worthwhile ones. Some teams go for 2-3bil regularly. Others have no bids at all.

I don't think it would be hard to redistribute teams based on demand metrics? Massively buffing the TE teams would be a good start, as no one in their right mind is going to use a 5% TE team over a 5% ME team.

In any case, I'd rather have this system with room to improve later than just pull it altogether, especially when combined with system indexes as they are today.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-12-05 00:20:55 UTC
I just used the jita team to save 2% on materials to manufacture high-grade implants.

I saved about 10mil all in all.

HANDS OFF MY TEAMS DAMMIT!
Firestorm Delta
Aphotic Machina
#120 - 2014-12-05 00:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Firestorm Delta
I will say up front that I have never used teams, nor will I anytime soon. All the same I learned a lot simply reading through the posts here. I can see that removing teams simply because they aren't quite what was planned is silly. They are part of a system, and removing one piece of the system will probably have greater consequences than leaving the not quite perfect piece in there.

Keep them so I can learn how useful they are in the future.