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[Rhea] Pulse Lasers and Scorch

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#121 - 2014-12-03 00:53:00 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
could the harbinger get some much needed fitting so it can actually fit a warfare link or a Nos please .. it needs some help too be useful


Smile I would like to fit heavy beams on a Harbinger instead of the focused mediums.

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Eric Shang
Black Layer Syndicate
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#122 - 2014-12-03 15:23:16 UTC
Fozzie I was wondering why pulses and beams are a bit well weird.

All ranges are lvl 5 skills

Pulse:
Multi (3.8 + 2.5) = dps range of 3.8 - 6.3KM
Conflag (3.8 + 2.5) = dps range of 3.8 - 6.3KM
Scorch (11 + 2.5) = dps range of 11 - 13.5KM

Beam:
Multi (7.5 + 5) = dps range of 7.5 - 12.5KM
Gleam (3.8 + 5) = dps range of 3.8 - 8.8KM
Aurora ( 27+ 5) = dps range of 27 - 32KM

If you look at the gleam and the scorch.

Why is there a short range beam ammo that is brawler range and then there is a pulse ammo that is overheated web range at its base.

I have been finding this very confusing.

Pulse:
Multi (3.8 + 2.5) = dps range of 3.8 - 6.3KM
Conflag (3.8 + 2.5) = dps range of 3.8 - 6.3KM
Scorch (3.8 + 5) = dps range of 3.8 - 8.8KM

Beam:
Multi (7.5 + 5) = dps range of 7.5 - 12.5KM
Gleam (11 + 2.5) = dps range of 11 - 13.5KM
Aurora ( 27+ 5) = dps range of 27 - 32KM

I would have said this would have been a bit more acurate.

It means pulse are there for close range and beam are there for long range.

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Questionable Ethics.
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#123 - 2014-12-03 20:05:56 UTC
You think making Scorch so that it barely has any more range than Multi is something that would be good? Your numbers would be utterly terrible, why would anyone ever use Scorch?
almanac Omaristos
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#124 - 2014-12-03 20:22:39 UTC
Lasers as a weapon system defiantly need more work. I would suggest also looking at conflag ammo as it needs a buff so that pulse lasers may be on par with the other weapons systems close range weapons.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#125 - 2014-12-03 21:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Lasers as a weapon system defiantly need more work. I would suggest also looking at conflag ammo as it needs a buff so that pulse lasers may be on par with the other weapons systems close range weapons.


lasers need better tracking for sure.. you don't see many brawling laser ships .. its all about mobile scorch omens/Apocs/ slicer.
that and the tanky brawling ships like maller abbadon etc .. are so poorly designed , they need cap mods just too use the guns, the dps is low and then you add trying to tracking something... or you get cap use bonuses and less tanky ships, which don't offer much in mobility, tank, dps or application/projection..

i also think the prophecy should be put back to a laserboat.. its just used as a bait brick like it used too but now it has drones for dps so the trade off is no longer there and the harbinger is too light on tank or useful bonuses too fill that maller to abbadon gap , harbi needs a proper apoc style mobility/projection too be useful, but ofc the oracle is in the way of it becoming a proper ABC as it needs too be useful.. so move ABC's to T2 too make room..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
almanac Omaristos
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#126 - 2014-12-03 22:12:34 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Lasers as a weapon system defiantly need more work. I would suggest also looking at conflag ammo as it needs a buff so that pulse lasers may be on par with the other weapons systems close range weapons.


lasers need better tracking for sure.. you don't see many brawling laser ships .. its all about mobile scorch omens/Apocs/ slicer.
that and the tanky brawling ships like maller abbadon etc .. are so poorly designed , they need cap mods just too use the guns, the dps is low and then you add trying to tracking something... or you get cap use bonuses and less tanky ships, which don't offer much in mobility, tank, dps or application/projection..

i also think the prophecy should be put back to a laserboat.. its just used as a bait brick like it used too but now it has drones for dps so the trade off is no longer there and the harbinger is too light on tank or useful bonuses too fill that maller to abbadon gap , harbi needs a proper apoc style mobility/projection too be useful, but ofc the oracle is in the way of it becoming a proper ABC as it needs too be useful.. so move ABC's to T2 too make room..


everything you said up until the second paragraph was pure genus

but the third paragraph not so much ... drones are a good thing, they made amarr much much better

shh.. we don't need to talk about nerfing the prophecy

solo prophecy for the win:D
almanac Omaristos
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#127 - 2014-12-03 22:17:37 UTC
Vibrance Sovereign wrote:
The problem is not in scorch, or pulses.

The problem is in the ammo penalties.

Autocannons: optimal is insignificant so the range penalties/bonuses of T1 ammo is irrelevant
T2 ammo gives a boost of ~50% range over the "standard" range

Blasters: optimal is important, but a large part of the range comes from falloff so the range penalties/bonuses of T1 ammo don't matter very much
T2 ammo boosts falloff, and returns the lost optimal, its a 40% bonus over the "unmodified" range of the guns, but a larger bonus considering anti-matter as the "standard" since the optimal is not insignificant

Pulse: optimal is very important, so the range penalties/bonuses of T1 ammo very much matter

Scorch ammo gives a boost of 50% optimal range over the "unmodified" range, but considering multifrequency to be "standard" its actually more like 3x

If you look at the stats of the guns themselves, which is probably how the balance started, they seem fine.
But lasers lose massive range when going for high damage ammo, whereas blasters lose only a little, and autos almost nothing.
Further diverging from the stats unmodified by ammo, the already high tracking autos get tracking boosts (no other T1 ammo gives tracking boosts)
The T1 ammo is defective, not the T2 scorch.
On top of this, is the TE/TC which boosts the effective range of autos and blasters far more than it does for lasers.

If high damage T1 ammo has an optimal penalty, but no falloff penalty for projectiles,
then high damage T1 laser crystals should have a falloff penalty, but no optimal penalty.
Hyrbids should have a split optimal/faloff penalty, just like the T2 ammo has a split optimal/falloff boost.

Scorch is not OPd. Either the other T1 ammos are OPd, or the T1 crystals and under powered.

This boosts T1 crystals a little, while leaving scorch mostly alone....
I'd still like to see a complete overhaul of optimal vs fallof vs tracking modifiers.
Then base the guns on that, or make it so all the ammo sleections have similar relative effects to the unmodified stats.

Scorch was fine, not whining about the changes.
Am whining about the focus wasted on this instead of other things


You the real MVP CCP listen to this guys

fix everything about lasers please :)
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#128 - 2014-12-03 22:24:09 UTC
Lasers are all wrong right now!

Right now they are back asswards.

Pulse lasers SHOULD be massive ALPHA weapons with huge cap usage but decent tracking with low rof to help with overall cap usage and dps balancing.

Beam laser SHOULD be dps lasers with NO 'alpha'. i.e. they do damage each second. Effectively very low damage but with very fast rof (1 second).
almanac Omaristos
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#129 - 2014-12-03 22:32:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Almanac Omaristos
Reynas Arthie wrote:
Lasers are all wrong right now!

Right now they are back asswards.

Pulse lasers SHOULD be massive ALPHA weapons with huge cap usage but decent tracking with low rof to help with overall cap usage and dps balancing.

Beam laser SHOULD be dps lasers with NO 'alpha'. i.e. they do damage each second. Effectively very low damage but with very fast rof (1 second).




OMG *little girl scream*

I like the idea of having close range alpha lasers with good tracking this is the best one so far CCP listen to this guy too

EDT: Dude make a forum post please
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#130 - 2014-12-03 22:32:46 UTC
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Lasers as a weapon system defiantly need more work. I would suggest also looking at conflag ammo as it needs a buff so that pulse lasers may be on par with the other weapons systems close range weapons.


lasers need better tracking for sure.. you don't see many brawling laser ships .. its all about mobile scorch omens/Apocs/ slicer.
that and the tanky brawling ships like maller abbadon etc .. are so poorly designed , they need cap mods just too use the guns, the dps is low and then you add trying to tracking something... or you get cap use bonuses and less tanky ships, which don't offer much in mobility, tank, dps or application/projection..

i also think the prophecy should be put back to a laserboat.. its just used as a bait brick like it used too but now it has drones for dps so the trade off is no longer there and the harbinger is too light on tank or useful bonuses too fill that maller to abbadon gap , harbi needs a proper apoc style mobility/projection too be useful, but ofc the oracle is in the way of it becoming a proper ABC as it needs too be useful.. so move ABC's to T2 too make room..


everything you said up until the second paragraph was pure genus

but the third paragraph not so much ... drones are a good thing, they made amarr much much better

shh.. we don't need to talk about nerfing the prophecy

solo prophecy for the win:D


so you like the prophecy as it is .. i just think its a bit a poor mans bastard myrmidon ..
what do you think about the oracle ABC's becoming T2 too allow 4 of the CBC's too become proper ABC's?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
almanac Omaristos
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#131 - 2014-12-03 22:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Almanac Omaristos
Harvey James wrote:
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Lasers as a weapon system defiantly need more work. I would suggest also looking at conflag ammo as it needs a buff so that pulse lasers may be on par with the other weapons systems close range weapons.


lasers need better tracking for sure.. you don't see many brawling laser ships .. its all about mobile scorch omens/Apocs/ slicer.
that and the tanky brawling ships like maller abbadon etc .. are so poorly designed , they need cap mods just too use the guns, the dps is low and then you add trying to tracking something... or you get cap use bonuses and less tanky ships, which don't offer much in mobility, tank, dps or application/projection..

i also think the prophecy should be put back to a laserboat.. its just used as a bait brick like it used too but now it has drones for dps so the trade off is no longer there and the harbinger is too light on tank or useful bonuses too fill that maller to abbadon gap , harbi needs a proper apoc style mobility/projection too be useful, but ofc the oracle is in the way of it becoming a proper ABC as it needs too be useful.. so move ABC's to T2 too make room..


everything you said up until the second paragraph was pure genus

but the third paragraph not so much ... drones are a good thing, they made amarr much much better

shh.. we don't need to talk about nerfing the prophecy

solo prophecy for the win:D


so you like the prophecy as it is .. i just think its a bit a poor mans bastard myrmidon ..
what do you think about the oracle ABC's becoming T2 too allow 4 of the CBC's too become proper ABC's?



okay I really don't understand what you just said
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#132 - 2014-12-03 22:39:36 UTC
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
almanac Omaristos wrote:
Lasers as a weapon system defiantly need more work. I would suggest also looking at conflag ammo as it needs a buff so that pulse lasers may be on par with the other weapons systems close range weapons.


lasers need better tracking for sure.. you don't see many brawling laser ships .. its all about mobile scorch omens/Apocs/ slicer.
that and the tanky brawling ships like maller abbadon etc .. are so poorly designed , they need cap mods just too use the guns, the dps is low and then you add trying to tracking something... or you get cap use bonuses and less tanky ships, which don't offer much in mobility, tank, dps or application/projection..

i also think the prophecy should be put back to a laserboat.. its just used as a bait brick like it used too but now it has drones for dps so the trade off is no longer there and the harbinger is too light on tank or useful bonuses too fill that maller to abbadon gap , harbi needs a proper apoc style mobility/projection too be useful, but ofc the oracle is in the way of it becoming a proper ABC as it needs too be useful.. so move ABC's to T2 too make room..


everything you said up until the second paragraph was pure genus

but the third paragraph not so much ... drones are a good thing, they made amarr much much better

shh.. we don't need to talk about nerfing the prophecy

solo prophecy for the win:D


so you like the prophecy as it is .. i just think its a bit a poor mans bastard myrmidon ..
what do you think about the oracle ABC's becoming T2 too allow 4 of the CBC's too become proper ABC's?



okay I really don't understand what you just said


basically making the oracle, talos etc into T2 bc's and then moving harbinger,drake, brutix and hurricane into the Attack bc category with the improved mobility/projection etc..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
almanac Omaristos
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#133 - 2014-12-03 22:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Almanac Omaristos
no not really, that would just be confusing for starters.

In all honesty its lasers that need the biggest changes right now they are the most untouched weapon system by ccp. The entire line needs a rework as they are indeed broken, the only thing laser have going for them right now is range, and even that's out done by sentries.

What lasers are missing is some awesome close range weapon system that can match blasters and auto cannons (rockets and HAMS are fine right now) currently amarr ships more specifically the t1 frigs and destroyers are heavily out match by the other races counter parts .


CCP should keep playing with small lasers and figure out a way to make them awesome.

AMARR MASTER RACE!!!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#134 - 2014-12-03 23:50:10 UTC
almanac Omaristos wrote:
-snip-
CCP should keep playing with small lasers and figure out a way to make them awesome.

AMARR MASTER RACE!!!


That is easy, increase tracking on pulse lasers to counter the shortcomings of the Amarr ship slot layouts. Bring down capacitor usage by a bit on beams and voilà, lazors awesome.

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The Disney World Federation
Fraternity.
#135 - 2014-12-04 00:43:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Schneevva wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


absurd tracking at range destroys small ships.


Then get closer. All weapons track better at long range.


They also track well at close range.

The problem with Scorch was that it gave you incredible range on a gun with good tracking, which means it tracked incredibly well at range whereas actual long range guns did not. It was the only reason things like the Slicer worked at all.

Now, none of this fixes the fact that barring scorch, pulse lasers are fairly awful. That's the main reason I dislike this change, lasers are now being brought "into line" with other turrets, while also very clearly not being in line because of their massive and utterly pointless cap penalty, which CCP tacitly admits to with their constant attempts to band aid over.



No that is NOT the reason why pulses have issues. THe main problem with pulses is that high damage cristals have same penalty as the other types of high damage ammunitions ( antimatter and EMP).. what you ask? How can that be an disadvantage? Because the MAIN advantage of pulses over other weapons is RANGE.

Result.. High damage ammunition penalty is FUNCTIONALLY much HIGHER on pulse lasers than on Blasters and AC. On AC the bonuses and penalties of T1 ammo were fixed long ago by making a tracking vs damage tradeoff. On blasters you use AM or NOTHING of t1 ammunition. The AM range penalty is irrelevant since you will already need to be very close.

Reduce MF range penalty to 30% and scale the other crystals .. and pulse lasers will be in a much more healthy place because they will be able to use their main advantage. That of REMOVE COMPLETELY the range penalty on T1 ammunition and exchange it for TRACKING vs Damage scaling.


would like to try this out, but it sounds interesting
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#136 - 2014-12-04 14:16:17 UTC
So when are you going to increase the base damage of mainly medium and also large pulses hmm? Pigeonholed into one damage type and high cap consumption could come with a bigger advantage then just good range. Tweak scorch at the same time so it doesnt become overpowered and I would call it balanced.....
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#137 - 2014-12-04 14:27:18 UTC
cap usage just isn't a viable bonus too a ship, it needs removing entirely.. just build the cap regen into the ships inatead if the point is too stop off races using them. then tracking bonuses or something useful instead in their place.
its the only weapon system that has too waste a bonus too use it.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#138 - 2014-12-04 14:47:01 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
cap usage just isn't a viable bonus too a ship, it needs removing entirely.. just build the cap regen into the ships inatead if the point is too stop off races using them. then tracking bonuses or something useful instead in their place.
its the only weapon system that has too waste a bonus too use it.


I completely agree. Reducing cap usage across the board might be even better beceause it would also make lasers more viable on non amarr hulls.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#139 - 2014-12-04 14:48:49 UTC
Kalihira wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
cap usage just isn't a viable bonus too a ship, it needs removing entirely.. just build the cap regen into the ships inatead if the point is too stop off races using them. then tracking bonuses or something useful instead in their place.
its the only weapon system that has too waste a bonus too use it.


I completely agree. Reducing cap usage across the board might be even better beceause it would also make lasers more viable on non amarr hulls.


i doubt the Amarr Empire would allow such heresy Evil

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#140 - 2014-12-04 14:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalihira
Harvey James wrote:
Kalihira wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
cap usage just isn't a viable bonus too a ship, it needs removing entirely.. just build the cap regen into the ships inatead if the point is too stop off races using them. then tracking bonuses or something useful instead in their place.
its the only weapon system that has too waste a bonus too use it.


I completely agree. Reducing cap usage across the board might be even better beceause it would also make lasers more viable on non amarr hulls.


i doubt the Amarr Empire would allow such heresy Evil


F*ck the Amarr! I will shoot their boats with laser fitted minnie boats! Twisted

Edit: armor fitted minnie ships ofcourse ^^