These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Retriever and T2 Mining Barge Boost Please

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Velarra
#41 - 2014-12-03 22:18:08 UTC
While not strictly within the scope of the request / idea originally posted, what about a review of the ~entire~ ore acquisition/mining process?

Why use mining ships in the first place? Why is it such a terribly passive activity? Why is it so easy to use questionable tools and methods to automate the process? Why do players choose to use such tools of an eula breaching nature?

Isn't there something wrong with the entire process and activity when it's both easy to script and people are frequently willing to use questionable tools?

I mean, when a process is so boring, and people so desperately crave various degrees and levels of automation to pursue it en-mass. There's an issue with the process not the ships or various forms of "content" it generates.

Or am i missing something beyond isk, content & tears? Most of which can be acquired elsewhere in eve through more active play styles in contrast with the repetitive monotony of mining. Not to malign those who bring content to the doldrums of a minor's existence, but otherwise. Really? Wouldn't it be great if asteroid Ore acquisition was a very involved activity, even without player intervention?
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#42 - 2014-12-03 22:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Velarra wrote:
While not strictly within the scope of the request / idea originally posted, what about a review of the ~entire~ ore acquisition/mining process?

Why use mining ships in the first place? Why is it such a terribly passive activity? Why is it so easy to use questionable tools and methods to automate the process? Why do players choose to use such tools of an eula breaching nature?

Isn't there something wrong with the entire process and activity when it's both easy to script and people are frequently willing to use questionable tools?

I mean, when a process is so boring, and people so desperately crave various degrees and levels of automation to pursue it en-mass. There's an issue with the process not the ships or various forms of "content" it generates.

Or am i missing something beyond isk, content & tears? Most of which can be acquired elsewhere in eve through more active play styles in contrast with the repetitive monotony of mining. Not to malign those who bring content to the doldrums of a minor's existence, but otherwise. Really? Wouldn't it be great if asteroid Ore acquisition was a very involved activity, even without player intervention?


I want to see a (more) click-fest way to mine ore, not to see the actual way [ locking ore=> active strip miner => watch forum til its done] trashed for another one, but a second one, needing high mining skills, but not for a ship this time, something like a anchoring module with very little ore hold and paper-thin against any npc or pvp (and using mining crystal of course), so the miner would have to be quick switching between a hauler and a cruiser to defend his anchorable, with a increased difficulty in null with the stronger npcs and bigger pvp. And on top of the high mining skills required, the player will need to be efficient with a cruiser or bc-sized combat ship.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Iain Cariaba
#43 - 2014-12-03 22:30:24 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Third, for anyone wondering, with 1124 m3/minute at current ore prices, high and null ore alike (they aren't different anymore), you're looking at income of 13 mil ISK per hour. The difference between Procurer and Skiff/Mack is only 2 mil ISK per hour, which is why I note once again that there is NO MEANINGFUL CHOICE here - paying for an exhumer to have up to 100 hours of mining for the increase in yield to pay off is stupid. We're stuck with Procurer because other barges suck, period.

Actually, you did the math wrong when calculating the isk/hr. The retriever and mackinaw will make more isk/hr when solo mining than the other barges because of their ore holds. Fewer trips to station to unload means more time with active mining beams.

Proper usage of various barges:
Covetor/Hulk: Group mining, with/without boosts, with hauler support, in relative safe area
Retriever/Mackinaw: Solo mining, with/without boosts, no/single hauler support, in relative safe area
Procured/Skiff: Solo/group mining, with/without boosts, with/without hauler support, in relative unsafe area

Are the t2 barges worth the cost increase over t1? That's not my call to make. That's your call to make as the person spending the isk.
Iain Cariaba
#44 - 2014-12-03 22:39:45 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:
-mackinaw are for miners who have both skills to fit and iskies to pay faction fit (a 200M hull shouldn't have only T2 on it), I use them to tank npc in null (not everything for now can be tanked but I have room for improvement left.

Since no one else has said anything about this, I have to ask... are you ******* high? You're already flying a gank magnet, so you're honestly saying fit mods worth more than your hull to make yourself a bigger target. The secret to surviving a suicide gank is to make the guy beside you worth ganking more than you are. Fitting faction mods onto a mining barge makes you that guy.

Don't be that guy.
Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#45 - 2014-12-03 22:47:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
-mackinaw are for miners who have both skills to fit and iskies to pay faction fit (a 200M hull shouldn't have only T2 on it), I use them to tank npc in null (not everything for now can be tanked but I have room for improvement left.

Since no one else has said anything about this, I have to ask... are you ******* high? You're already flying a gank magnet, so you're honestly saying fit mods worth more than your hull to make yourself a bigger target. The secret to surviving a suicide gank is to make the guy beside you worth ganking more than you are. Fitting faction mods onto a mining barge makes you that guy.

Don't be that guy.


more than hull ? i was talking about 30M for 2-3 dread guristas resists, it would be silly to put blue (deadspace?) module on this.
And exhumers hull cost around 200M anyway, good tank on a mackinaw saved my ships from 1 and 2 catalyst (T2 + void). Even if I'm aligned a mackinaw doesn's instawarp, plus sometimes ECM drones just dont work.

Here is the fit I'm talking about :

H-S mackinaw

high
modulated strip miner II 2x

med
dread guristas thermic dissipation field
dread guristas kinetic deflection field
limited adaptive invulnerability field (faction cost too much)
medium fs-9 regolith shield induction

low
mining laser upgrade II 2x
micro auxiliary power core

rigs
medium processor overcloking unit
medium core defense field extender

1or2 light drones for rat and ecm drones

ship hull : 190M in amarr
fittings : 31.2M
total : 220M

I dont see silly stuff here

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#46 - 2014-12-03 23:37:21 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
-mackinaw are for miners who have both skills to fit and iskies to pay faction fit (a 200M hull shouldn't have only T2 on it), I use them to tank npc in null (not everything for now can be tanked but I have room for improvement left.

Since no one else has said anything about this, I have to ask... are you ******* high? You're already flying a gank magnet, so you're honestly saying fit mods worth more than your hull to make yourself a bigger target. The secret to surviving a suicide gank is to make the guy beside you worth ganking more than you are. Fitting faction mods onto a mining barge makes you that guy.

Don't be that guy.


more than hull ? i was talking about 30M for 2-3 dread guristas resists, it would be silly to put blue (deadspace?) module on this.
And exhumers hull cost around 200M anyway, good tank on a mackinaw saved my ships from 1 and 2 catalyst (T2 + void). Even if I'm aligned a mackinaw doesn's instawarp, plus sometimes ECM drones just dont work.

Here is the fit I'm talking about :

H-S mackinaw

high
modulated strip miner II 2x

med
dread guristas thermic dissipation field
dread guristas kinetic deflection field
limited adaptive invulnerability field (faction cost too much)
medium fs-9 regolith shield induction

low
mining laser upgrade II 2x
micro auxiliary power core

rigs
medium processor overcloking unit
medium core defense field extender

1or2 light drones for rat and ecm drones

ship hull : 190M in amarr
fittings : 31.2M
total : 220M

I dont see silly stuff here



why doesnt your ship insta warp when you are aligned?
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#47 - 2014-12-03 23:43:48 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Third, for anyone wondering, with 1124 m3/minute at current ore prices, high and null ore alike (they aren't different anymore), you're looking at income of 13 mil ISK per hour. The difference between Procurer and Skiff/Mack is only 2 mil ISK per hour, which is why I note once again that there is NO MEANINGFUL CHOICE here - paying for an exhumer to have up to 100 hours of mining for the increase in yield to pay off is stupid. We're stuck with Procurer because other barges suck, period.

Actually, you did the math wrong when calculating the isk/hr. The retriever and mackinaw will make more isk/hr when solo mining than the other barges because of their ore holds. Fewer trips to station to unload means more time with active mining beams.

Proper usage of various barges:
Covetor/Hulk: Group mining, with/without boosts, with hauler support, in relative safe area
Retriever/Mackinaw: Solo mining, with/without boosts, no/single hauler support, in relative safe area
Procured/Skiff: Solo/group mining, with/without boosts, with/without hauler support, in relative unsafe area

Are the t2 barges worth the cost increase over t1? That's not my call to make. That's your call to make as the person spending the isk.


I don't remember last time I had to fly a barge to the station. It's always many of them, enough to keep a Miasmos busy - either with Orca in a belt or just beaming cans. Solo mining atm is beyond pathetic, so I don't even considered it.
Also, no mistake here even if you have to, Procurer will take less time per trip, so no much difference here.

There is simply no area in eve safe enough to mine in Covetor/Retriever, and no sane reasons to pay for Hulk/Mackinaw. They are supposedly good at what they do, but only on paper - you see them not working once you try using them.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#48 - 2014-12-04 00:01:44 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
-mackinaw are for miners who have both skills to fit and iskies to pay faction fit (a 200M hull shouldn't have only T2 on it), I use them to tank npc in null (not everything for now can be tanked but I have room for improvement left.

Since no one else has said anything about this, I have to ask... are you ******* high? You're already flying a gank magnet, so you're honestly saying fit mods worth more than your hull to make yourself a bigger target. The secret to surviving a suicide gank is to make the guy beside you worth ganking more than you are. Fitting faction mods onto a mining barge makes you that guy.

Don't be that guy.


more than hull ? i was talking about 30M for 2-3 dread guristas resists, it would be silly to put blue (deadspace?) module on this.
And exhumers hull cost around 200M anyway, good tank on a mackinaw saved my ships from 1 and 2 catalyst (T2 + void). Even if I'm aligned a mackinaw doesn's instawarp, plus sometimes ECM drones just dont work.

Here is the fit I'm talking about :

H-S mackinaw

high
modulated strip miner II 2x

med
dread guristas thermic dissipation field
dread guristas kinetic deflection field
limited adaptive invulnerability field (faction cost too much)
medium fs-9 regolith shield induction

low
mining laser upgrade II 2x
micro auxiliary power core

rigs
medium processor overcloking unit
medium core defense field extender

1or2 light drones for rat and ecm drones

ship hull : 190M in amarr
fittings : 31.2M
total : 220M

I dont see silly stuff here


I do.
You're basically 1% over retriever yield (means your shiny NEVER pays off).
I gotta hand it to anti-catalyst buffer of this thing, it can mine in 0.6 and be safe from 3 catalysts, won't survive 3 coercers though.
ehp/s tank is too low to mine in 0.5 as NPC will deal serious damage. Gankers only need to wait till your shield are low enough, and blap you with 2 catalysts once you're half shilelds.
But basically, this fit is pointless bling, as it's never going to pay off - it's retriever yield and you can replace 7 retrievers with fits for its cost.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#49 - 2014-12-04 02:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Basil Pupkin wrote:


Second, the fact that Retriever and Covetor can't tank top 0.5 and 0.6 rats respectively, and Hulk/Mack are gank magnets just for giggles. I don't think I saw a Hulk anywhere lower than 0.7 or even 0.8 since forever, provided my team sold all the hulks and a few people kept macks after Odyssey.



and yet macks and hulks can tank through ganks and retties are able to solo mine in 0.5's without dying to rats...

you cant call other ppl clueless when you cant distinguish fact from your own fiction.

Basil Pupkin wrote:


There is simply no area in eve safe enough to mine in Covetor/Retriever, and no sane reasons to pay for Hulk/Mackinaw. They are supposedly good at what they do, but only on paper - you see them not working once you try using them.


and again, there are even 0.5's where you can mine in a cov and hulk.

ganking is not nearly as bad as you are making out and as such the other 4 barges do see use.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Brigadine Ferathine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-12-08 02:27:37 UTC
All I am getting at with this thread is they arnt balanced at all. Yes the bonus's should be different but they should all be capable of solo mining. That is not happening unless your an ISbotter with 10 accounts.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#51 - 2014-12-08 10:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gadget Helmsdottir
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
All I am getting at with this thread is they arnt balanced at all. Yes the bonus's should be different but they should all be capable of solo mining. That is not happening unless your an ISbotter with 10 accounts.


And yet they are capable of solo mining... when used in the right place. Each barge/exhumer can easily solo mine in HS when all other things are equal, and with no outside interference. The coveter doesn't make a good solo mining platform, but it can do the job. A Retreiver with drones can survive any rat attack in HS belts, in fact, that's its job -- solo mining in HS. It's the players that might make pilots look at the Procurer. Exhumers take these ships up a notch or two.


Once again, use the right tool for the job. Want to mine where the rats can obliterate an inattentive combat boat, then use the tanky ships. Have no worries about rats (i.e. cleared WH belts or have your own space-cover) then use the ore-hold ships. Have a decent fleet designed to take all advantage of mining boosts, has cover, and basically be as effecient as possible, then use the fleet oriented ships.

Can't really say much more than that.... again.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Previous page123