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[Rhea] Pulse Lasers and Scorch

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Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2014-11-29 17:50:04 UTC
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better

So Much Space
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#102 - 2014-11-29 18:01:16 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


technically a nerf, but in reality a buff.. you'll get more range from the falloff buffs than you lose in optimal range when using scorch

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#103 - 2014-11-29 18:30:04 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Fozzie, show us on the ship doll where the ebil Zealot touched your alt....


Really? People still say this? It's not furthering any cause, especially not with a dev.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2014-11-29 18:48:09 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


absurd tracking at range destroys small ships.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2014-11-29 20:13:00 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


absurd tracking at range destroys small ships.


try spiralling I hear it helps avoid that

So Much Space
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#106 - 2014-11-29 20:19:24 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


absurd tracking at range destroys small ships.


Then get closer. All weapons track better at long range.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Schneevva
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#107 - 2014-11-29 21:30:53 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


absurd tracking at range destroys small ships.


Then get closer. All weapons track better at long range.


They also track well at close range.

The problem with Scorch was that it gave you incredible range on a gun with good tracking, which means it tracked incredibly well at range whereas actual long range guns did not. It was the only reason things like the Slicer worked at all.

Now, none of this fixes the fact that barring scorch, pulse lasers are fairly awful. That's the main reason I dislike this change, lasers are now being brought "into line" with other turrets, while also very clearly not being in line because of their massive and utterly pointless cap penalty, which CCP tacitly admits to with their constant attempts to band aid over.
Shelom Severasse
The Disney World Federation
Fraternity.
#108 - 2014-11-30 09:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Shelom Severasse
i feel that if pulses are getting a slight nerf to scorch range, then the tracking penalty on scorch should also be taken down a bit

EDIT: reason i say that is, as everyone knows, pulse lasers have the worst tracking out of all short range turrets. if you start taking away their range as well, then youll just end up killing off any fit with lasers
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#109 - 2014-11-30 11:02:46 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
5% and 2%? that's really underwhelming. do bigger things please. you should be tring to make scorch/null/barrage into being like javelin or something, and making the guns usable with proper ammos. t2 ammo should be a niche thing imo.


javelin is pretty useless ammo as are all the T2 short range ammo on long range guns..


no, javelin is a nice example of T2 ammo done well. it's not a game-breaking replacement like scorch or null, it's an occasionally useful thing you carry around for when you really need more tracking.


like null makes blasters pawnmobiles ??? ShockedShocked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#110 - 2014-11-30 11:16:48 UTC
I wasn't aware this was a thing. I use Imperial Navy clears as much as scorch.

My observation on lasers is, you have Heavy Pulse, dual pulse, heavy beam, dual beam and nobody uses 3 of them. If you want to balance lasers you need to look further and larger than Pulse/ Scorch.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#111 - 2014-12-01 01:45:24 UTC
Ocih wrote:
My observation on lasers is, you have Heavy Pulse, dual pulse, heavy beam, dual beam and nobody uses 3 of them. If you want to balance lasers you need to look further and larger than Pulse/ Scorch.

Module tiericide, anyone?
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2014-12-01 06:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: AspiB'elt
Hi Fozzie,

But can you also adapt the lens about damage. Because the lens T1 are ******* joke now

Now we have a lot of lens. This is useful when you have Large beam only.

My idea will be to have right now two lens in the same range but will different damage.

One lens make more damage in EM the second make more damage in Thermal.

Example for small lens

Right now we have that

Multifrequency 7 HP 5 HP 11.0 6.05 -50% 0%
Gamma 7 HP 4 HP 10.2 5.4 -37.5% -15%
Xray 6 HP 4 HP 9.2 5.0 -25% -25%
Ultraviolet 6 HP 3 HP 8.4 4.35 -12.5% -35%
Standard 5 HP 3 HP 7.4 3.95 0% -45%
Infrared 5 HP 2 HP 6.6 3.3 20% -35%
Microwave 4 HP 2 HP 5.6 2.9 40% -25%
Radio 5 HP 0 HP 5.0 2.0 60% -15%

After the modification we have that ( we have only 4 range)

Multifrequency 9 HP 2 HP 11.0 6.05 -50% 0%
Gamma 2 HP 9 HP 11.0 6.05 -50% 0%

Xray 7 HP 2 HP 8.4 4.35 -15% -35%
Ultraviolet 2 HP 7 HP 8.4 4.35 -15% -35%

Standard 5 HP 2 HP 6.6 3.3 20% -35%
Infrared 2 HP 5 HP 6.6 3.3 20% -35%

Microwave 5 HP 0 HP 5.0 2.0 60% -15%
Radio 0 HP 5 HP 5.0 2.0 60% -15%
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2014-12-01 19:40:19 UTC
Alright it's a step;

But can you please buff/change other crystals as well? I'm tired of looking at Purple lasers.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#114 - 2014-12-02 05:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
........why....

this is your solution to a broken weapon system?

These changes are irrelevant....
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2014-12-02 09:11:17 UTC
Schneevva wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Faren Shalni wrote:
Why does scorch need nerfing even if slightly?

when rails (mid to super long range), sentries (everything), beams (mid to long range), Arty's (Short-mid to Long Range) and blasters (Brawling) do its job better


absurd tracking at range destroys small ships.


Then get closer. All weapons track better at long range.


They also track well at close range.

The problem with Scorch was that it gave you incredible range on a gun with good tracking, which means it tracked incredibly well at range whereas actual long range guns did not. It was the only reason things like the Slicer worked at all.

Now, none of this fixes the fact that barring scorch, pulse lasers are fairly awful. That's the main reason I dislike this change, lasers are now being brought "into line" with other turrets, while also very clearly not being in line because of their massive and utterly pointless cap penalty, which CCP tacitly admits to with their constant attempts to band aid over.



No that is NOT the reason why pulses have issues. THe main problem with pulses is that high damage cristals have same penalty as the other types of high damage ammunitions ( antimatter and EMP).. what you ask? How can that be an disadvantage? Because the MAIN advantage of pulses over other weapons is RANGE.

Result.. High damage ammunition penalty is FUNCTIONALLY much HIGHER on pulse lasers than on Blasters and AC. On AC the bonuses and penalties of T1 ammo were fixed long ago by making a tracking vs damage tradeoff. On blasters you use AM or NOTHING of t1 ammunition. The AM range penalty is irrelevant since you will already need to be very close.

Reduce MF range penalty to 30% and scale the other crystals .. and pulse lasers will be in a much more healthy place because they will be able to use their main advantage. That of REMOVE COMPLETELY the range penalty on T1 ammunition and exchange it for TRACKING vs Damage scaling.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2014-12-02 09:13:33 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Scorch is quite bad as is, because it mostly does EM damage, other weapon systems do more thermal kinetic explosive damage which is way better than only EM.
It is good against Sansha in PVE, but that's about it.
Try shooting angel cartel with sorch, it takes FOREVER.


Game balance is made and DISCUSSED around PVP. PVE balance is secondary and is emergent from the PVP balance. No logic on changing a weapon system because of ANGEL rats, when its better to focus on PVP balance and then if there are PVE problems you tweak the RATS.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2014-12-02 09:15:59 UTC
Naoru Kozan wrote:
Don't suppose you guys could take a quick look at Medium Autocannons? They are kind of bad atm.



The problem of AC are blasters. Blasters were overbuffed and that combined with the nerf to track enhancers means that AC have no engagement envelope where they are decent unless the ship has falloff bonus.

When you get in tackle range Blasters completely WIPE AC, with a hand tied behind their back. Outside that range AC are completely outdone by rails and missiles. That results in AC not having ANY LOGICAL usage at all.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-12-02 12:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Gonna throw my 2 cents in here....


I feel that the major issues with weapons (especially hybrid and lasers) is that most of the ammo is more or less useless.

I've posted in the past that the ammo does need a full rework however it didn't gain much traction.

Original Thread

The meat and two veg of my idea is this:

Quote:

LASERS

Two "Short Range" High damage ammo's that give the weapons a choice in damage type within the weapons damage profile
Multifrequency (short range EM) ........: Hi EM low Thermal -50% optimal
Infra-red (Short rng Thermal) .............: Hi thermal damage low EM -50% optimal

Two "Short Range" Speciality ammo's that offer either a ROF bonus (useful for specific ships) and a High Tracking ammo
Gamma (short range hi RoF) ............. : +100% RoF -50% Damage -50% optimal (Double RoF but 1/2 the damage per shot)
X-Ray (Short Range hi tracking) .........: -50% optimal +10% tracking low dmg

Two "Mid Range" Ammo's
Ultraviolet (Mid range Mid dmg)...........: +25% optimal
Standard (V.Low Cap Use Mid Rng) ..: +25% optimal -50% cap use -20% damage

Two "Long Range" ammo's. One offering heavy volley damage at the expense of tracking and one "Extreme" range ammo
Microwave (Sniper/Alpha low RoF)......: +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal +100% Cap use
Radio (Extreme long range)..................: +60% optimal

HYBRIDS

Two "Short Range" High damage ammo's that give the weapons a choice in damage type within the weapons damage profile
Antimatter (Short rng Thermal)..............: High Thermal low Kinetic damage -50% optimal
Lead (Short rng Kinetic)...........................: hi kinetic low Thermal -50% optimal

Two "Short Range" Speciality ammo's that offer either a ROF bonus (useful for specific ships) and a High Tracking ammo
Uranium (Short-Mid rng Hi RoF).............: +100% Rof -50% dmg -25% optimal -25% falloff (Double RoF but 1/2 damage per shot)
Plutonium (Short-Mid rng Hi tracking):.... -25% optimal & falloff +10% tracking low dmg

Two "Mid Range" Ammo's
Thorium (Hi falloff low optimal)................: +50% Falloff
Iridium (Hi optimal Low falloff)..................: +50% Optimal

Two "Long Range" ammo's. One offering heavy volley damage at the expense of tracking and one "Extreme" range ammo
Tungsten (Sniper/Alpha low RoF)............: +75% dmg -75% Rof +40% optimal & falloff +100% Cap use
Iron (Extreme long range)..........................: +60% Optimal & fall off



I think the ammo really needs fixing first then look at the turrets and meta or tier cide it. Whatever we're gonna call it
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2014-12-02 20:55:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
No that is NOT the reason why pulses have issues. THe main problem with pulses is that high damage cristals have same penalty as the other types of high damage ammunitions ( antimatter and EMP).. what you ask? How can that be an disadvantage? Because the MAIN advantage of pulses over other weapons is RANGE.

Result.. High damage ammunition penalty is FUNCTIONALLY much HIGHER on pulse lasers than on Blasters and AC. On AC the bonuses and penalties of T1 ammo were fixed long ago by making a tracking vs damage tradeoff. On blasters you use AM or NOTHING of t1 ammunition. The AM range penalty is irrelevant since you will already need to be very close.

Reduce MF range penalty to 30% and scale the other crystals .. and pulse lasers will be in a much more healthy place because they will be able to use their main advantage. That of REMOVE COMPLETELY the range penalty on T1 ammunition and exchange it for TRACKING vs Damage scaling.



Lasers are a kiting weapon system that only gets put on brawling hulls. Similarly, projectiles are a brawling weapon system that only gets put on kiting hulls. This, in addition to the fact that sentry drones are strictly superior to any weapon system that doesn't outrange them, makes them bad.

Imagine for a second if the Vagabond had laser bonuses while the Zealot had projectile bonuses. Both ships would be incredibly good.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#120 - 2014-12-02 23:11:11 UTC
could the harbinger get some much needed fitting so it can actually fit a warfare link or a Nos please .. it needs some help too be useful

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using