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Deployable to modify timers
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Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1 - 2014-11-22 17:42:48 UTC
I'd like to see a deployable structure that would allow the attackers to have some ability to manipulate when the structures they are attacking will come out of reinforced mode (either by extending or shortening the timer) .

This would encourage/force people to monitor their structures a bit to keep the reinforced timers at the desired target.

I imagine a module that could modify the time by 4 (or maybe 8?) hours either way if it is allowed to operate on a POCO/Tower/whatever without being destroyed. This might be similar to how the siphon units work against moon mining arrays.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-11-22 18:11:48 UTC
Timers are present to give both sides defined times, opportunities for them to fight and generate content. Modules that shifted these timers seem to me that they would be counter-intuitive to the existence of the timers in the first place, and would allow alliances to take or lose sov without fights happening, which is verrrrry bad. I do think it would be nice though if with the occupancy based nullsec system, unused systems would simply not generate timers at all on sov objectives. You want the chance to fight for it, use it.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#3 - 2014-11-22 18:31:14 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Timers are present to give both sides defined times, opportunities for them to fight and generate content. Modules that shifted these timers seem to me that they would be counter-intuitive to the existence of the timers in the first place, and would allow alliances to take or lose sov without fights happening, which is verrrrry bad. I do think it would be nice though if with the occupancy based nullsec system, unused systems would simply not generate timers at all on sov objectives. You want the chance to fight for it, use it.


That's why I think the change allowed should be relatively small (4 hours is probably more reasonable than 8). Also, the module would have to be guarded by whoever dropped it off. If they didn't, the change wouldn't happen (or would just happen to a lesser degree). Right now the defender has a complete advantage by setting the timer. Allowing the attacker to modify it a little bit (if the defender doesn't actually, you know, defend their space) doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Otherwise, the defender only has to defend their space for about 30 minutes, once a day. That doesn't generate content, that gives content an on/off all or nothing switch. Being able to modify the timer would make things more fluid and require vigilance by whichever party wanted to hold the structure more.

Hell, even a 2 hour time difference would be huge in some cases... but it'd still rather have 4 hrs.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#4 - 2014-11-22 18:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
feel free to contribute to the Combat Engineering Ships thread here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=343692

this idea might have a relation to that discussion and possibly contribute as we're talking about structure offensive.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#5 - 2014-11-22 19:20:24 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
I'd like to see a deployable structure that would allow the attackers to have some ability to manipulate when the structures they are attacking will come out of reinforced mode (either by extending or shortening the timer) .

This would encourage/force people to monitor their structures a bit to keep the reinforced timers at the desired target.

I imagine a module that could modify the time by 4 (or maybe 8?) hours either way if it is allowed to operate on a POCO/Tower/whatever without being destroyed. This might be similar to how the siphon units work against moon mining arrays.

An interesting idea, for sure.
Am I correct in saying that such a deployable would modify based on the amount of time it is anchored? And if it were destroyed the attackers could place another but the effect timer would start over? (i.e. Leave it out for 6 hours to change the timer by ~1hr)
I could see this being useful
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#6 - 2014-11-23 02:40:21 UTC
No.

With time zone differences this opens up much more chances for the attackers to plan when the timer ends to coincide with the owners having very few if any players online.

As a tool to balance time zone differences the current 24 hour timer with it's defined start and end work best for everyone involved.
Jur Tissant
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-11-23 06:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jur Tissant
Nah, the defending side should have the advantage with RF timers.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#8 - 2014-11-23 08:38:14 UTC
The defending side already has 100% of the advantage by setting the time best for them. I'm just asking for the attackers to have 16.666667% advantage (4 hrs). And if the defender is serious about defending their property, they are more than capable of blowing up my proposed structure.

83 % defender vs 17 % attacker advantage in setting up the time is still a HUGE difference. Why should the defender get everything and the attacker nothing?

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-11-23 09:36:50 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
The defending side already has 100% of the advantage by setting the time best for them. I'm just asking for the attackers to have 16.666667% advantage (4 hrs). And if the defender is serious about defending their property, they are more than capable of blowing up my proposed structure.

83 % defender vs 17 % attacker advantage in setting up the time is still a HUGE difference. Why should the defender get everything and the attacker nothing?


Only way for a defender to have a 100% advantage to begin with is if the attacker decides not to contest the timer at all and just be creating structure-shooting content for themselves.

-1
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#10 - 2014-11-23 10:59:33 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
The defending side already has 100% of the advantage by setting the time best for them. I'm just asking for the attackers to have 16.666667% advantage (4 hrs). And if the defender is serious about defending their property, they are more than capable of blowing up my proposed structure.

83 % defender vs 17 % attacker advantage in setting up the time is still a HUGE difference. Why should the defender get everything and the attacker nothing?



Garbage Numbers, dear.
Timezones aren't in degrees. Either you and your mates are at work, or you're not. Period. Full stop.

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#11 - 2014-11-23 19:05:40 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
The defending side already has 100% of the advantage by setting the time best for them. I'm just asking for the attackers to have 16.666667% advantage (4 hrs). And if the defender is serious about defending their property, they are more than capable of blowing up my proposed structure.

83 % defender vs 17 % attacker advantage in setting up the time is still a HUGE difference. Why should the defender get everything and the attacker nothing?



Garbage Numbers, dear.
Timezones aren't in degrees. Either you and your mates are at work, or you're not. Period. Full stop.

--Gadget


Your argument is garbage, dear.
Even people who live in the same time zone have vastly different times they can play. You have people who are on from 12-15, 10-20, 10-15, 15-18, and so on. In that (completely made up) example the best time for the defenders would be around 1500. But war, war never changes. Nor is it easy. Nor does it follow a nice little time-table with everyone punching their clocks in and out at specific times every day.

And, to borrow another of your "cute" words... Period. Full stop.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#12 - 2014-11-24 12:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Moraguth wrote:

Your argument is garbage, dear.
Even people who live in the same time zone have vastly different times they can play. You have people who are on from 12-15, 10-20, 10-15, 15-18, and so on.


still, this dependency is not linear, 2-3h before main timezone peak time and numbers will rapidly break in because majority of people are at work.

Aside of this, I dont like the idea about tampering with timers, because those timers have a purpose they were introduced for, to start with.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#13 - 2014-11-24 15:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Moraguth wrote:
The defending side already has 100% of the advantage by setting the time best for them.

What ever you are smoking, or taking I want some of it.

Thinking back on all of the POS bashes I have been in the defenders had 0% control over the situation.
All they could do was try to muster forces to try and counter the attack. Since our group has more than a few brain cells we could easily counter that by carefully choosing when the structure goes into reinforce mode and by that we control when it comes out of reinforce mode. If you are trying to kill a structure and the defenders are dictating when things can happen then you and the rest of your group are complete fails as players and you do not deserve any more advantage than you already have.
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#14 - 2014-11-25 06:47:05 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Moraguth wrote:
The defending side already has 100% of the advantage by setting the time best for them.

What ever you are smoking, or taking I want some of it.

Thinking back on all of the POS bashes I have been in the defenders had 0% control over the situation.
All they could do was try to muster forces to try and counter the attack. Since our group has more than a few brain cells we could easily counter that by carefully choosing when the structure goes into reinforce mode and by that we control when it comes out of reinforce mode. If you are trying to kill a structure and the defenders are dictating when things can happen then you and the rest of your group are complete fails as players and you do not deserve any more advantage than you already have.


This reminds me of that old adage about how sound your argument is when you've started to insult someone.

Also, consider that POSs aren't the only things that have reinforcement timers. The thing that initially made me want this module was the frustration of POCO bashing. In your example, you had intel which allowed you, as the attacker to modify the time the structure popped out of reinforced mode. In the case I'm thinking of, there's nothing the attacker can do to modify that timer. That's just one disparity I'd like to see corrected.

I'm betting there would be a way to work together to solve similar problems without resorting to name calling and completely dismissing other people because they have a different opinion than you.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#15 - 2014-11-26 04:05:12 UTC
Moraguth wrote:
Also, consider that POSs aren't the only things that have reinforcement timers. The thing that initially made me want this module was the frustration of POCO bashing. In your example, you had intel which allowed you, as the attacker to modify the time the structure popped out of reinforced mode. In the case I'm thinking of, there's nothing the attacker can do to modify that timer. That's just one disparity I'd like to see corrected.

I'm betting there would be a way to work together to solve similar problems without resorting to name calling and completely dismissing other people because they have a different opinion than you.

In the future I suggest you be a little more specific in your initial posts so that we can all avoid situations like this one. If you were speaking or thinking primarily of a POCO then you should have stated that. Although the concerns for how your module would un-balance the situation with a POS is still a major trouble spot to work out.

POCO are really not that different.
They still go into reinforce mode at 25% shields etc.
The only significant change is the owning corp reinforcement timer which can be set to one of only a few 2 hour windows so you can make some educated guesses about the whole affair before your attack even starts as the timer will never be more than 48 hours.

The ref timer cannot be set or changed once the POCO has been reinforced and the timer shown in space gives you the exact time that it will come out of reinforce mode and that will include whatever setting the defending corp has chosen.

While this does give the defenders a little more control than with a POS it hardly gives them 100% control over the whole situation.

Going to your OP I still say no.
First it is to general and while a modified version of it would help balance the situation with a POCO it would still be completely unbalanced when applied to a POS.

If CCP went with your idea how and when would the attackers be required to deploy this module and when would they be required to set the amount of time + or - that it would apply?
If you set it up after the POCO went into reinforce mode I would still give this a -1 since you could look at the timer in space and then adjust yours to give maximum advantage to you.

If you placed and set it before the POPCO went into reinforce mode then how does this help you?
You would still be taking guess about what the timers on the POCO were set to and you might just make things worse for you in the process.