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Thoughts on Recon and the ships that go with them?

Author
Delphic Cartographer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-11-18 22:57:35 UTC
Hello, I spent the better part of yesterday and today looking for information regarding what is essentially being a scout. I was looking for what a good ship might be, and then the skills needed for the ship and then realized it pretty much all depends. So I wanted to ask if anyone has served a function as true reconnaissance. It seems like what I've been finding on the forums is what I would describe as the Destroyer Scout: a person or small group that goes into systems and engages in small harrassment engagements.

I do recon IRL, and its fun...sometimes a little boring, but it consists mostly of only a few elements:
1. Finding/observing a point or person and gathering information for follow-on forces.
2. Route reconnaissance where a scout or group goes from startpoint to endpoint and determines the suitability of a route for either transport or follow-on forces.
3. Determining the location of enemy forces in order to shape the engagement, whether its by observation or use of screen-lines (I imagine a screen line in space where ships can warp would not be relevant, but the rest is, I imagine).
4. Being a forward observer, just a little ahead of a main body element (whether its combat or logistics).

Usually its performed by a lightly armed and lightly armored unit with advanced communications equipment, and only get decisively engaged against other reconnaissance units, if at all.

I looks like the covert frigates fit the bill the best for observing forces (since I'm training the Calderi at the moment, it would be the one that isn't the Manticore). Maybe a cruiser, but it looks like that would take months to train. I'm training Calderi at the moment, but I'm still new enough to switch without it being a bit deal.

Skills look like Recon, any in the Electronic Warfare section, and CPU management, and frigate 5. What about Survey and Scanning?

But before I take this route, do people actually do or need this kind of service? Any insight on how reconnassaince works in EVE, or do people just expect the Destroyer Scout?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#2 - 2014-11-18 23:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Being the forward eyes and ears, keeping tabs on enemy movement, location and actions is pretty much a covert ops kind of thing. Recons are something different, they have Ewar/combat capabilities a scout won't need. The fact that they're cruisers just makes it more dangerous as they're much slower and easier to catch. These days T3 cruisers are used for this as well due to bubble immunity, inties have that as well but not being able to warp cloaked will be an issue for true scouting.

Back when I was in 0.0 alliances I mostly was a covert scout. Every time I joined a new corp/alliance the initial reaction invariably would be "You're a scout? We have alts for that" and then fairly quickly they'd learn that having an active scout who knows wtf he's doing is worth more than they could ever imagine. No idea how it is these days but I'd hope that people have caught on by now, if you're GOOD (or at least show potential) then you'll do fine. Just start in a small pvp corp, get used to it all. Improve, grow, get known and sooner or later good groups will pick you up.
Paranoid Loyd
#3 - 2014-11-18 23:45:52 UTC
Manticore is the stealth bomber, buzzard is the one you want.
Race mostly does not matter for scouting.
But yes, a fleet with a scout or two is quite a bit more powerful than one without.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2014-11-18 23:46:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Covert-Ops ships (not the Stealth Bomber) would indeed be your ultimate goal. They are highly mobile, have cloaking abilities, and bonuses for using probes.

That said... "scouting" as a profession is a little vague. Even in EVE.

You can be a "scout" just using any fast frigate.
- Simply warp one system ahead of your allies...
- use the Directional Scanner (the button can be found on the left side of your Capacitor Hud)...
- relay to everyone else what you see on voice comms (even going as far as to give the "all-clear")...
- maybe rush forward and grab something skittish for everyone else to come and gnaw on.

You can also be a "scout" by probing down PvE sites, Player Owned Starbases, wormholes, and even other players... and then warping people to these bookmarked positions.
There are Tech 1 frigates with probing bonuses that you can practice with.

And we come back to the Covert-ops ships which takes all of the above and shoves into a Tech 2 frigate... with a cloak... with no offensive or tanking capabilities (sans the Astero which is a "special case").



On the other hand... Tech 2 cloaking cruisers have more in common with Electronic Warfare Frigates in that they specialize in debilitating targets with a serving of combat prowess.
They CAN be fitted for probing and scouting duty... but are generally inferior to the frigate versions as they lack the special probing bonuses, are slower, and easier to hit when visible (due to their size).



All that said... being an excellent dedicated prober and scout (especially one that can work with others) will make you a VERY hot commodity among PvP and Wormhole groups.
With your fast probing and good intel dissemination you can make or break engagements for warring fleets.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-11-19 00:36:49 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Covert-Ops ships (not the Stealth Bomber) would indeed be your ultimate goal.


Bombers do not have a decloaking delay while covert ops do of 5 seconds. Bombers are a better choice for applying tackle while having cynos strapped to the highs. Covert Ops are great ships for finding sites and probing however useless as a forward scout. The only case they would be useful is probing out out a dead space site.

Really the scouting thing depends on where you live and what fleet you have behind you. Ceptors tend to be the best choice do to the alignment time, nullified, and warp speed.
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-11-19 01:03:02 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
inties have that as well but not being able to warp cloaked will be an issue for true scouting.
Still, depending on what you're looking for, Inties (= Interceptors) can do a good job as well.

Sure, Inties don't have the probe bonus to find someone in a pocket and they can't land on grid to really look at an enemy, so for pure spying CovOps are better. But in K-Space (= not in worm holes), you show up in local anyway, so you aren't totally invisible. And, as already said, you can do a lot of scouting with just local & d-scan.

Inties are bubble immune, faster and can point and hold a juicy target if they find one. Especially the last bit can make them more valuable than CovOps as a "scout with teeth", depending on the needs of your fleet.

But yeah, start with fast T1 frigates as "cheap inties" (e.g. Condor) and then move to CovOps (e.g. Buzzard) and/or Inties (e.g. Crow). T3s might be a long-term goal.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2014-11-19 02:21:00 UTC
Eldwinn wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Covert-Ops ships (not the Stealth Bomber) would indeed be your ultimate goal.


Bombers do not have a decloaking delay while covert ops do of 5 seconds. Bombers are a better choice for applying tackle while having cynos strapped to the highs. Covert Ops are great ships for finding sites and probing however useless as a forward scout. The only case they would be useful is probing out out a dead space site.

That wasn't what the OP was asking for. He was asking for something that can perform "reconnaissance" and "follow" targets... which is exactly what a Covert-Ops excels at.

With regards to tackling... granted the Covert-Ops would make for a terrible tackler... but no more so than a Stealth Bomber even with its no-delay-targeting ability. Both are paper thin and will quickly succumb to light drones (again, the Astero is the exception to this... though it does have a targeting delay... which nothing a quick bump with an afterburner can't fix).

What a Covert-Ops can do is use probes to pinpoint people in the middle of space (or at a tactical point) and warp people to that point... including interceptors.
I've seen such people/ships do this during structure bashes and anti-sniper ops. They can make things very dicy for hostiles by making tactical points quite useless.
Morgan Strigidae
EVE University
Ivy League
#8 - 2014-11-19 04:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Strigidae
I'm interested in the very same thing.

Here's some EVE University pages on it:

Scouting

Fleet Formation and Intel

EVE Uni classes on scouting, combat intel and combat probing

Also, check out Ombey's maps.
Crimson Draufgange
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#9 - 2014-11-19 06:19:52 UTC
Delphic Cartographer wrote:
Hello, I spent the better part of yesterday and today looking for information regarding what is essentially being a scout. I was looking for what a good ship might be, and then the skills needed for the ship and then realized it pretty much all depends. So I wanted to ask if anyone has served a function as true reconnaissance. It seems like what I've been finding on the forums is what I would describe as the Destroyer Scout: a person or small group that goes into systems and engages in small harrassment engagements.

I do recon IRL, and its fun...sometimes a little boring, but it consists mostly of only a few elements:
1. Finding/observing a point or person and gathering information for follow-on forces.
2. Route reconnaissance where a scout or group goes from startpoint to endpoint and determines the suitability of a route for either transport or follow-on forces.
3. Determining the location of enemy forces in order to shape the engagement, whether its by observation or use of screen-lines (I imagine a screen line in space where ships can warp would not be relevant, but the rest is, I imagine).
4. Being a forward observer, just a little ahead of a main body element (whether its combat or logistics).

Usually its performed by a lightly armed and lightly armored unit with advanced communications equipment, and only get decisively engaged against other reconnaissance units, if at all.

I looks like the covert frigates fit the bill the best for observing forces (since I'm training the Calderi at the moment, it would be the one that isn't the Manticore). Maybe a cruiser, but it looks like that would take months to train. I'm training Calderi at the moment, but I'm still new enough to switch without it being a bit deal.

Skills look like Recon, any in the Electronic Warfare section, and CPU management, and frigate 5. What about Survey and Scanning?

But before I take this route, do people actually do or need this kind of service? Any insight on how reconnassaince works in EVE, or do people just expect the Destroyer Scout?


Yes, scouting is very heavily needed. It really doesn't pay at all, but it's a crucial role for any organized fleet. You might want to familiarize yourself with DOTLAN: EVE Maps as well as Zkillboard. Both of those put together make for some great scouting tools.

My Velator is overpowered.

"I use my hairgel to tackle my targets because it has a long lasting firm hold." - Me.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#10 - 2014-11-19 10:23:29 UTC
I always have my own scout in the system I'm about to jump into with my main.

Best ship for my purposes is a Tec 3 cruiser as it can
1) use a covert cloak
2) comfortably fit combat probes
3) provide off grid boosts for my main once **** kicks off.

Generaly I'm running about in a pair of legions , one fitted for the role detailed above flown by my alt (and always one or two jumps ahead)
and one fit for combat.

before I could get my alt into a t3 though I sat her in an astero which was fantastic for scouting, fast , bonuses for probing, covops capable.
You have to gimp the ship to fit combat probes on it but it considerably quicker to sit in than most of the other covops ships.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#11 - 2014-11-19 12:43:05 UTC
Your job description fits best for scouts in wormholes such as last night everyone was sure that lone rapier had to be at POS in d-scan until a scout verified that nope he was too busy busy looting some data site to not pay any attention for 20 hostiles with combat scanners in his d-scan ...
Rammel Kas
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-11-19 14:37:46 UTC
In NULL where we are based the most common +1 or +2 scouts are still interceptors. So you're looking to train Frigates 5 either way.

We also see a lot of T2 Covert Ops probe ships being parked off, sometimes for hours on end, as long distance scouts. More along the lines of your thinking... just keeping eyes on a position of interest like a station undock or gate. Or moving between these and setting up fleet tactical bookmarks for the rest to use later. Deep safe spots, gate perches and near point warp ins, etc. Their advantage (with proper rigs) is fast align and being able to warp cloaked, plus being somewhat cheaper than cruisers.

The NC. method for gate security is to park a claoked dictor at the gate at nearly 0, aligned out. They can check what the arrival is and either ruin their day or at least provide a few moments delay to their getting away. Not a traditional covert ship. But as a defensive scout we've seen it spoil a lot.

Lastly for BLOB drops we see a combination of the T2 long scout with a T3 hull like a Proteus as the initial hunters for the Black Ops gang. The Proteus using full set high grade plugs gets right up to the target ship before the point, web etc and light the initial cynosural field to bring in the gang. The "2 Fleet recons used to do this before. But as someone else said they are easier to catch. We've also seen Stratios hulls in this role. Same downside as something like a Rapier. But a shorter train to sit in plus it can fit ship probes for more options.

Common theme you may notice is that you need to fit Cov Ops cloaks. And you need propulsion jamming. Other than that you need to train the ship skills. If you are going to go the cyno route you may also want to invest some points in resistances and tanking skills.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-11-19 15:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Delphic Cartographer wrote:
Hello, I spent the better part of yesterday and today looking for information regarding what is essentially being a scout. I was looking for what a good ship might be, and then the skills needed for the ship and then realized it pretty much all depends. So I wanted to ask if anyone has served a function as true reconnaissance. It seems like what I've been finding on the forums is what I would describe as the Destroyer Scout: a person or small group that goes into systems and engages in small harrassment engagements.

I do recon IRL, and its fun...sometimes a little boring, but it consists mostly of only a few elements:
1. Finding/observing a point or person and gathering information for follow-on forces.
2. Route reconnaissance where a scout or group goes from startpoint to endpoint and determines the suitability of a route for either transport or follow-on forces.
3. Determining the location of enemy forces in order to shape the engagement, whether its by observation or use of screen-lines (I imagine a screen line in space where ships can warp would not be relevant, but the rest is, I imagine).
4. Being a forward observer, just a little ahead of a main body element (whether its combat or logistics).

Usually its performed by a lightly armed and lightly armored unit with advanced communications equipment, and only get decisively engaged against other reconnaissance units, if at all.

I looks like the covert frigates fit the bill the best for observing forces (since I'm training the Calderi at the moment, it would be the one that isn't the Manticore). Maybe a cruiser, but it looks like that would take months to train. I'm training Calderi at the moment, but I'm still new enough to switch without it being a bit deal.

Skills look like Recon, any in the Electronic Warfare section, and CPU management, and frigate 5. What about Survey and Scanning?

But before I take this route, do people actually do or need this kind of service? Any insight on how reconnassaince works in EVE, or do people just expect the Destroyer Scout?



Typical ships used for scouting:

* Stealth Bombers / Covert Ops frigates
* Interceptors.

The first are useful as they can move around cloaked (and with the Cov Ops, some probing skills trained and experience with probing you can find targets in safe spots etc.)

The latter is more a tackle-scout that can warp fast, is bubble immune and thus can be great to move ahead of a fleet to grab tackle while the rest of the fleet moves in.




Then there are the actual Recon ships (T2 cruisers) that can be used too, but that is mainly used for hotdropping.

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Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-11-19 16:42:06 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Your job description fits best for scouts in wormholes such as last night everyone was sure that lone rapier had to be at POS in d-scan until a scout verified that nope he was too busy busy looting some data site to not pay any attention for 20 hostiles with combat scanners in his d-scan ...

I agree with this. Scouting in WH space is much more about cloaking and intel than in known space. Yes, those things are still useful there, but they are spoiled by local. Anybody that doesn't want to fight you already will just dock up as soon as they notice you in local. So "scouts" will often just bring fast frigs (interceptors) to catch stuff before they are noticed.

In WH space it's completely different. Cloaking is life. Chains of wormholes have to be scanned to find targets (cov ops). You can watch people for hours without them even realizing you are there (I once stalked a Chimera in a C2 for an entire week waiting for it to come out of the POS). It's the most engaging and interesting type of "scouting" I have experienced in EVE. Of course there are times where you don't find anything and it's rather dull. But something about working to set up your kills, rather than just playing station games in lowsec, is quite appealing to me.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#15 - 2014-11-19 16:45:54 UTC
Delphic Cartographer wrote:
But before I take this route, do people actually do or need this kind of service? Any insight on how reconnassaince works in EVE, or do people just expect the Destroyer Scout?
There was a recent article from a low-sec corp perspective extolling the virtues of dedicated scouting but I couldn't find it. You might search around on the forum or eve-blogger for it. Also this recent article might be of interest to you: Recon tools. Finally, an Astero can get you into a cov-op ship quickly with some offensive capability if you want. Biggest downside is that it's hard to fit an expanded probe launcher.
Delphic Cartographer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-11-19 23:00:48 UTC
Morgan Strigidae wrote:
I'm interested in the very same thing.

Here's some EVE University pages on it:

Scouting

Fleet Formation and Intel

EVE Uni classes on scouting, combat intel and combat probing

Also, check out Ombey's maps.


Thanks Morgan, this was definitely a resource I was looking for.

Also, Shiloh, that was a good article. Thanks.

Thanks for all the perspectives. I suspected that covert frigate would be the way to go. I'm sad to hear mentioned that there isn't much money in it though. I get that you wouldn't necessarily want the glory, since your cover would be blown in local.

Seems like its going to be a little while though, until I get the necessary skills for a covert frigate though.

Scouting can be a little boring sometimes, but I get into that a bit. Is it overly optimistic to imagine selling it as a service for different corps?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#17 - 2014-11-19 23:32:10 UTC
One interesting part of scouting is selecting targets for a highsec wardec corporation, something I've been doing lately.

Here it's not so much scouting for ships in space as it is scouting for valuable corp assets in space.

Other interesting forms of recon work that I don't handle are monitoring market transactions for officer modules with the intention of identifying end users, and confiscating those modules back from them; and monitoring the sale of ORE strip miners and Harvester drones (again, for later confiscation).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#18 - 2014-11-19 23:58:36 UTC
Delphic Cartographer wrote:
Morgan Strigidae wrote:
I'm interested in the very same thing.

Here's some EVE University pages on it:

Scouting

Fleet Formation and Intel

EVE Uni classes on scouting, combat intel and combat probing

Also, check out Ombey's maps.


Thanks Morgan, this was definitely a resource I was looking for.

Also, Shiloh, that was a good article. Thanks.

Thanks for all the perspectives. I suspected that covert frigate would be the way to go. I'm sad to hear mentioned that there isn't much money in it though. I get that you wouldn't necessarily want the glory, since your cover would be blown in local.

Seems like its going to be a little while though, until I get the necessary skills for a covert frigate though.

Scouting can be a little boring sometimes, but I get into that a bit. Is it overly optimistic to imagine selling it as a service for different corps?

Recommend strongly the Astro as a stop gap, all you need is galente and amarr frigate and highish cloaking skills(enough for the covops) it's substantially quicker than the other frigates, much pricey r granted but fantastic little ship for scouting.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#19 - 2014-11-24 03:27:40 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
There was a recent article extolling the virtues of dedicated scouting but I couldn't find it.
Found it: Low Sec Scouting