Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Arty = Alpha, not dps.
Stabber = Fast ship, not massive dps ship.

If you want to do alpha at range, use artillery. If you want dps, look somewhere else.

I think you missed the point of the rails being fitted to the Stabber providing more than the arty ones.

Well the drones were in both, thus cancelling each other out in DPS calc. However this was then readded as people were fretting about alpha without them and obviously the net dps gap remained the same.

I don't think you're getting my point.

DPS of lolrail stabber >> dps of arty stabber.



Is it reasonable to expect a DPS BONUSED hull to have better DPS using the WRONG weapons?

How would people feel if the brutix was better with arty/ACs than hybrids?
How about a zealot being better with projectiles than lasers?
Both of these would be ludicrous, but are comparable to the situation I've presented.

Did you see the part where the double damage bonused rupture is only 4% higher?

6 effective turrets vs 4.....

I built two Ruptures assuming all level V skills. Only thing on the builds was 4x T2 turrets using highest-damage navy faction ammo, and 3x T2 damage mods. I did compare 250mm rails to 650mm arties because they use roughly the same fitting. Here's what I found:

1. Raw DPS was similar. 322 for arties vs 308 for rails.*
2. Alpha favored arties. 1528 for arties vs 920 for rails.
3. Tracking favored arties. 0.033 for arties vs 0.026 for rails.
4. ROF favored rails. 4.7 sec for arties vs 3.0 for rails.
5. Cap usage favored Arties. 0 for arties vs 7 Cap/s for rails.
6. Damage selection favored arties. Obviously.

Looking at the two, it seems that arties are coming out the overall winner here. Arties had better alpha, and were able to better apply damage due to higher tracking and damage-type selection. The only aspect that rails didn't clearly win was ROF, and that's par for the course with arties and rails so it should be expected.

Having said that, I do agree with the OP that the amount that arties are better than rails on a Rupture could maybe be greater given that they are receiving two damage bonuses from the hull. I'd be willing to say that either the hull bonuses or the weapons need a slight buff, but nothing substantial.

Ultimately, I think the problem is that CCP is trying to keep the alpha of arties in check due to hisec suicide ganking. This means that in order to actually buff arties relative to rails or lasers, they'd have to do so in a way that keeps the alpha the same as it is now. Given that alpha is one of the main strengths of arties, this seems almost counter-productive.

Thoughts?

* Reload time is not included in this as I'm doing my work on EvE Droid instead of EFT. It should be similar after reload times are taken into account which is why I'm not declaring a clear winner here.

Then I'd use rails on a rail bonused hull because the bonus would pull it miles ahead. I'd then also be able to use arty on a projectile bonused hull as effectively as it ought to be


720's would very likely even it properly (complete with appropriate pros and cons), but the damned things are not fittable outside of BCs.


Note - I'm specifically asking for a rail nerf or an arty buff - just for CCP to take a look at this. Fitting is probably the best option. I seem to recall a lot of hulls took big PG nerfs in the past because they had lots for "arty" but people used ACs and abused the remaining grid. If the hull PG is now acceptable - maybe it is time to drop arty fittings back.

Perhaps 650s could get a small buff and a smaller arty introduced - iirc there are only 2 medium arty weapons but 3 of all other turrets. Maybe having just two doesnt allow a proper spread.

Or maybe medium rails need a look - or maybe both.

Just think it's worth calling out

Rails don't provide more alpha than arties.

Oh I'm aware of the relative arty strengths, but does it seem reasonable that on a bonused arty is still outpaced by unbonused rails?

I'm not comparing bonused weapon to bonused weapon here. My comparison is like an AC thorax doing more DPS than a blaster thorax...

I don't know what you guys are doing with your long range weapons, but whenever i decide to fit for range i have kiting in mind as well as staying out of my target's DPS range, so tracking kinda falls out of the equation. It's still there, sure, but only if there's significant differences (10% aint significant here) it's a stat to look for.

Next up, 'selectable damage types':

Well, you know, there's basically the best overall choice: Thermal.
Since you often don't know in advance whether you're going to face armor or shield ships, you don't fly with explo or em loaded. As it could mean you'd have to change ammo before the fight starts, and especially if you get caught by surprise (happens, sometimes. Barely, but it happens.) and have to shoot with non-optimal ammo you are almost screwed already.

Thermal is a good choice of Damage against anything that isn't Caldari Tech 2 or Minmatar Armor Tech 2 (Is there anything? Don't think so.)

Oh would you look at that, high portions of Hybrid dps is Thermal!


If you really think the selectable damage types of projectiles are worth the consideration to use them rather than lasers or hybrids, then you probably suck. Going Explosive vs Armor or Em vs Shields is a gamble. One Hardener or Rig, and you already shoot the wrong damagetype. This might be true for Kinetic or Thermal, too, however these stats are usually in the 'okayish' range so people don't capitalize on them. (Protip: Abuse this!)




So, what we have left is... High Alpha and No Cap vs High Dps, medium Alpha.

Most of the time you won't shoot stuff you can Alpha off the field that easily (unless you go Tornado's, Fleet Stuff or Teabag Thrashers), so having reliable high dps wins.
Capuse is cool, sure, but mostly on hulls that require tons of Cap.
For example, on he Dreadnought level, i would go for a Naglfar. Cause capless Guns is awesome here.

So far, imo, Rails > Arties.

And now, for the grand finale, the Hulls.
To fit 250mm Rails on a Cruiser or BC you will have to make some fitting sacrifices. However, they are never going to be as severe as the sacrifices you have to make to get 720s going.

And if you now look at Damage Bonused Minmatar Hulls that, when fit with arty, have similar or worse DPS than the VERY SAME SHIPS fit with HYBRIDS, a Weaponsystem that was never intended to be used on them, then there clearly something is wrong.


Medium Projectiles are the Rifter of Guns.
Kinda good back then, everything else got buffed. Okay, okay, that was kinda... balanced, still, like every weapon now had advantages and disadvantages rather than 'Scorch or Barrage or GO HOME!'

But then the Ships got balanced, leaving the whole Minmatar Lineup in a horrible shape.



There has to be a change made to Projectiles.
Personally, i'm not proposing damage buffs.
I'm proposing versatility, like, unique overheat bonuses. Tracking, Range, whatever looks interesting!




Oh yeah, what happened to the minnies btw? It's like Gallente and Amarr are now faster. WIth stronger weapons.
Minnie changed from easy to Hardcore Game on Hardcore Mode.

You're all forgetting about the Beam Stabber! it has less range can only do 1 damage type at range and that's EM! and does less dps than either of the other two AND less alpha