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[Phoebe] Stealth Bombers

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Xenocy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#801 - 2014-10-29 00:02:58 UTC
Quote:
We can't weather such a sharp subscriber loss right now and we can't afford to dedicate time to actually fix things the way we should, so here are some token changes instead.



Hit the nail on the head with that one.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#802 - 2014-10-29 00:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Delt0r Garsk
Mrs Comfortable wrote:
Bombers remain OP, nothing to see here.

That 15 players can basically remove BS from fleet fights is lame.

Might as well bring tracking titans back its that level of lame.

Bring some support ships with your BS. How dam hard is it to field a few AFs or destroyers or whatever. They really are glass cannons. You practically instaspolode. Oh and how exactly would the cloak thing change torp strategy? Bombing runs on something like a real fight is hard.

If it so easy. Show me ..I will check your killboard at the end of the week.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Masterkiller Mechanics
State War Academy
Caldari State
#803 - 2014-10-29 00:06:22 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Mrs Comfortable wrote:
Bombers remain OP, nothing to see here.

That 15 players can basically remove BS from fleet fights is lame.

Might as well bring tracking titans back its that level of lame.

Bring some support ships with your BS. How dam hard is it to field a few AFs or destroyers or whatever. They really are glass cannons. You practically instaspolode. Oh and how exactly would the cloak thing change torp strategy? Bombing runs on something like a real fight is hard.

If it so easy. Show me ..I will check your killboard at the end of the week.


You have never seen 100+ Dominix die instantly when you land on a gate have you....
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#804 - 2014-10-29 00:07:15 UTC
JoveBishop wrote:
What a lame move.
******* crybabies win.

How are you not a crybaby? Because you can't have immunity to bombers? May need some support? Boo hoo.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#805 - 2014-10-29 00:11:56 UTC
Masterkiller Mechanics wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Mrs Comfortable wrote:
Bombers remain OP, nothing to see here.

That 15 players can basically remove BS from fleet fights is lame.

Might as well bring tracking titans back its that level of lame.

Bring some support ships with your BS. How dam hard is it to field a few AFs or destroyers or whatever. They really are glass cannons. You practically instaspolode. Oh and how exactly would the cloak thing change torp strategy? Bombing runs on something like a real fight is hard.

If it so easy. Show me ..I will check your killboard at the end of the week.


You have never seen 100+ Dominix die instantly when you land on a gate have you....

Try local and Intel channels, getting that many lost means your doing it wrong. Would like to see some proof.

So No i haven't' because getting that lucky with a bombing runs is very hard. We did get like 20 BS once. But again. You have to be lucky.

By the logic that you shouldn't lose that much on a gate. You also want smart bombs banned... and bubbles and any tactic that doesn't make you feel safe everywhere.

If its so OP, stay in LS and HS. We won't miss you.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#806 - 2014-10-29 00:14:24 UTC
You could say Fozzie just bombed this thread HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Circumstantial Evidence
#807 - 2014-10-29 00:14:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Both the new bomb and new interdiction probe will be made available exclusively in the Syndicate LP store.
for ease of transport (bombs are big) Please make these items available (also?) in the form of BPC's
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#808 - 2014-10-29 00:16:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Here are our latest updates to the plan.

Firstly and most significantly, the change to decloaking mechanics has been put on hold indefinitely. We are going to take some more time to work on the best way to have ships interact with cloakies and it's very possible that our eventual changes will be significantly different than what we talked about earlier. For now, cloaked ships will not decloak each other.

We're also going to be removing some of the earlier increase in signature radius and shifting it to a penalty on the bomb launcher itself. The T1 bomb launcher will add +10m signature radius and the T2 will add 12m.

We're increasing the capacity of the T2 bomb launcher to 300m3.



Very nice to see that you are applying most of the sig radius penalty to bomb launchers themselves. This change was unnecessarily punishing torp bombers, that were in a an alright place before.

The t2 bomb launcher capacity increase I think gives far more merit to the skilltrain than the reactivation delay, especially when you have to warp out, get re-setup, and warp back in, so that's really nice too.

Considering the way that you want the decloaking mechanic to work, without punishing all cloakies, is it not possible to also tie the decloaking other cloakies effect onto the bomb launcher? Or too complicated?



MukkBarovian wrote:
Could we discuss the balance of warp speeds on bc and bs? If shield BS aren't exactly welcome on big fleets it would be nice if we could roam with them. I'm not saying they need to go cruiser speed, but faster than right now would be nice.


I don't think that's really a 'stealth bombers changes discussion' thread topic =P
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#809 - 2014-10-29 00:17:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Here are our latest updates to the plan.

Firstly and most significantly, the change to decloaking mechanics has been put on hold indefinitely. We are going to take some more time to work on the best way to have ships interact with cloakies and it's very possible that our eventual changes will be significantly different than what we talked about earlier. For now, cloaked ships will not decloak each other.

We're also going to be removing some of the earlier increase in signature radius and shifting it to a penalty on the bomb launcher itself. The T1 bomb launcher will add +10m signature radius and the T2 will add 12m.

We're increasing the capacity of the T2 bomb launcher to 300m3.

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.

Both the new bomb and new interdiction probe will be made available exclusively in the Syndicate LP store.

The new interdiction probe will be delayed slightly as we've run into some graphical issues with it that we'll need more time to properly fix.

We've sourced a lot of these changes from this thread, thanks to everyone who has been providing feedback.

I'm not really sure how to proceed giving feedback here. Could I ask a simple question, instead?

Does CCP see the vast gulf between the viability of shield-tanked fleet doctrines and armor-tanked fleet doctrines, a gulf which is overwhelmingly due to the damage application of bombs, as a problem?

The ISBoxer and cloaking nonsense are irrelevant to this question, and I'm not looking for any justification for the answer one way or the other. A Yes or No answer will suffice. I promise not to assign arbitrary, unfounded, bespoke justification to your response. I would just like to know.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#810 - 2014-10-29 00:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Manfred Sideous wrote:
@CCPFozzie


wow way to cave man way to cave. How about do this for now then make the interaction changes. We were so looking forward to fly something other than sig tankers. But this kills it.


You have ruined my day and made me sad OopsCryOopsCry



with all your relevant experience in running bomber fleets right manfred? the only experience you have of bomber fleets is on the wrong side of them so i can understand a blanket dumb as f**k approach with zero finesse and interesting nuances would suite you to the ground.

There are better ways to bring bombers a little way back from being able to bomb all the things and make shield BS fleets become something other than blatently suicidal in a fight. Some have suggested adding some of the missile explosion velocity vs ship speed into the bomb damage equation, i think thats trending towards a better solution and imho adding that, balancing some armor BS and shield BS sig sizes alongside bombs explosion radius would be sufficient.

i also think that the not so recent change to bs sized mwd cap usage is also something that might become useful eventually!

CCP Fozzie wrote:

We're increasing the capacity of the T2 bomb launcher to 300m3.


thats a nice change but not exactly something that would make me want to ask people to train a 2 week+ lvl5 skill for. Especially when said launcher is the only loaded weapon system wthout any t2 ammunition.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.


i thought the original explosion radius was 1m? which would mean this is a 4999m increase. knit-picking i know but i do like the change. Could the new Focused Void bomb be a t2 ammo choice for the t2 bomb launcher? it would be a big draw for serious bombers to invest sp into bomb deployment 5 (and maybe a subsequent specialisation skill??)
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#811 - 2014-10-29 00:18:29 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Masterkiller Mechanics wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Mrs Comfortable wrote:
Bombers remain OP, nothing to see here.

That 15 players can basically remove BS from fleet fights is lame.

Might as well bring tracking titans back its that level of lame.

Bring some support ships with your BS. How dam hard is it to field a few AFs or destroyers or whatever. They really are glass cannons. You practically instaspolode. Oh and how exactly would the cloak thing change torp strategy? Bombing runs on something like a real fight is hard.

If it so easy. Show me ..I will check your killboard at the end of the week.


You have never seen 100+ Dominix die instantly when you land on a gate have you....

Try local and Intel channels, getting that many lost means your doing it wrong. Would like to see some proof.

So No i haven't' because getting that lucky with a bombing runs is very hard. We did get like 20 BS once. But again. You have to be lucky.

By the logic that you shouldn't lose that much on a gate. You also want smart bombs banned... and bubbles and any tactic that doesn't make you feel safe everywhere.

If its so OP, stay in LS and HS. We won't miss you.


Stay in highsec alone, you mean. Rumor has it Masterkiller Mechanics lost his 100 dominix fleet to the guy with 11 rokhs in lowsec.
Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#812 - 2014-10-29 00:20:30 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Here are our latest updates to the plan.

Firstly and most significantly, the change to decloaking mechanics has been put on hold indefinitely. We are going to take some more time to work on the best way to have ships interact with cloakies and it's very possible that our eventual changes will be significantly different than what we talked about earlier. For now, cloaked ships will not decloak each other.

We're also going to be removing some of the earlier increase in signature radius and shifting it to a penalty on the bomb launcher itself. The T1 bomb launcher will add +10m signature radius and the T2 will add 12m.

We're increasing the capacity of the T2 bomb launcher to 300m3.

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.

Both the new bomb and new interdiction probe will be made available exclusively in the Syndicate LP store.

The new interdiction probe will be delayed slightly as we've run into some graphical issues with it that we'll need more time to properly fix.

We've sourced a lot of these changes from this thread, thanks to everyone who has been providing feedback.

I'm not really sure how to proceed giving feedback here. Could I ask a simple question, instead?

Does CCP see the vast gulf between the viability of shield-tanked fleet doctrines and armor-tanked fleet doctrines, a gulf which is overwhelmingly due to the damage application of bombs, as a problem?

The ISBoxer and cloaking nonsense are irrelevant to this question, and I'm not looking for any justification for the answer one way or the other. A Yes or No answer will suffice. I promise not to assign arbitrary, unfounded, bespoke justification to your response. I would just like to know.


i sure hope they do querns, but i hope you agree the decloak change wouldn't affect how bombers apply to either shield or armour and thus was not the needed change

a change bombers desperately need is their damage equalized vs shield/armor. before that happens any power level nerfs or other changes are pretty meaningless

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#813 - 2014-10-29 00:20:49 UTC
The problem is the meta has already shifted to everyone flying the same ship in large fights. But hey, if you guys want to see 4 fleets of the same ship ok whatevs.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#814 - 2014-10-29 00:21:58 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
uncher is the only loaded weapon system wthout any t2 ammunition.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.


i thought the original explosion radius was 1m? which would mean this is a 4999m increase. knit-picking i know but i do like the change. Could the new Focused Void bomb be a t2 ammo choice for the t2 bomb launcher? it would be a big draw for serious bombers to invest sp into bomb deployment 5 (and maybe a subsequent specialisation skill??)



AOE radius is still 1m. Explosion radius 4000m --> 5000m, meaning that it will apply very little cap drain on something like a subcap IF it hits, and significantly reduced cap drain on something like a capital ship.
Brad314
Perkone
Caldari State
#815 - 2014-10-29 00:22:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Here are our latest updates to the plan.

Firstly and most significantly, the change to decloaking mechanics has been put on hold indefinitely. We are going to take some more time to work on the best way to have ships interact with cloakies and it's very possible that our eventual changes will be significantly different than what we talked about earlier. For now, cloaked ships will not decloak each other.

We're also going to be removing some of the earlier increase in signature radius and shifting it to a penalty on the bomb launcher itself. The T1 bomb launcher will add +10m signature radius and the T2 will add 12m.

We're increasing the capacity of the T2 bomb launcher to 300m3.

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.

Both the new bomb and new interdiction probe will be made available exclusively in the Syndicate LP store.

The new interdiction probe will be delayed slightly as we've run into some graphical issues with it that we'll need more time to properly fix.

We've sourced a lot of these changes from this thread, thanks to everyone who has been providing feedback.




So Why? Why take it back?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#816 - 2014-10-29 00:24:30 UTC
Capqu wrote:
i sure hope they do querns, but i hope you agree the decloak change wouldn't affect how bombers apply to either shield or armour and thus was not the needed change

a change bombers desperately need is their damage equalized vs shield/armor. before that happens any power level nerfs or other changes are pretty meaningless

Yeah, I don't really give a crap about the cloak changes. It's just quality of life stuff. The only meaningful change the decloaking thing would have had on a competent bomber group would have been the one, maybe two seconds of extra warning a fleet would get as bombers decloak each other in warp. Maybe. I'm not even sure that is a thing that would happen or not.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#817 - 2014-10-29 00:29:24 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
uncher is the only loaded weapon system wthout any t2 ammunition.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.


i thought the original explosion radius was 1m? which would mean this is a 4999m increase. knit-picking i know but i do like the change. Could the new Focused Void bomb be a t2 ammo choice for the t2 bomb launcher? it would be a big draw for serious bombers to invest sp into bomb deployment 5 (and maybe a subsequent specialisation skill??)



AOE radius is still 1m. Explosion radius 4000m --> 5000m, meaning that it will apply very little cap drain on something like a subcap IF it hits, and significantly reduced cap drain on something like a capital ship.


ahh good point well made, and the increase i would still agree with as its a capital class weapon and should scale well to not be OP against subs (if you could even hit one with it)

still think that 1m aoe is somewhat ridiculous in a game where 1km is a tiny distance.
Sof0s
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#818 - 2014-10-29 00:33:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Here are our latest updates to the plan.

Firstly and most significantly, the change to decloaking mechanics has been put on hold indefinitely. We are going to take some more time to work on the best way to have ships interact with cloakies and it's very possible that our eventual changes will be significantly different than what we talked about earlier. For now, cloaked ships will not decloak each other.

We're also going to be removing some of the earlier increase in signature radius and shifting it to a penalty on the bomb launcher itself. The T1 bomb launcher will add +10m signature radius and the T2 will add 12m.

We're increasing the capacity of the T2 bomb launcher to 300m3.

The Focused Void Bomb will have an explosion radius of 5000m, 1000m more than originally proposed.

Both the new bomb and new interdiction probe will be made available exclusively in the Syndicate LP store.

The new interdiction probe will be delayed slightly as we've run into some graphical issues with it that we'll need more time to properly fix.

We've sourced a lot of these changes from this thread, thanks to everyone who has been providing feedback.



The bold part is wrong why do you penalize the tech2 item more than the tech1, most bombers dont care about the reload time but will care about the signature penalty .
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#819 - 2014-10-29 00:33:38 UTC
Bombers need to be changed up so that more doctrines are available.

Carefully not decloaking your fleetmates was not the way to do it.

It was a half baked band aid fix that would have been annoying.

Not today spaghetti.
Oddsodz
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#820 - 2014-10-29 00:43:11 UTC
Thank you for not going back to the old decloak range bug.