Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Trying to run a large scale mining operation can be quite a hassle when it comes to moving ore out of the belt(s). With the addition of being able to jettison EFCs and use them in space, people have been flocking around the idea of Freighter-supported mining operations via giant jet-cans. Freighter-supported mining ops have been a long-term goal of mine, and I'd like to see it more viable. I think this can be done with a few minor changes to the way Enormous Freight Containers (EFC) function.

As it stands now, they are insta-poppable, making them way too susceptible to being killed by rookie ships with civilian modules. It should take a few more moments to destroy it, I think. Strong enough to withstand random smartbombing, but not too tough that they can't be popped by a small focused group - similar to a suicide gank. I'm all for having a risk associated with using EFCs, but not so much that civilian modules/rookie ships pose any kind of threat.

In addition to having some kind of HP, they really need the ability to launch for corporation or launch for fleet. I can't think of any good reason to limit can access like that. EFCs should function similar to normal jet-cans - everyone can freely access the container but taking from it activates a suspect flag if you don't have access permission.

I don't think EFCs were implemented very well, and I'm not sure why they have effectively 1 HP. They need some amount of HP so someone who just started can't come pop your cans by farting in their general direction. Group access capability for assistance supporting fleet ops. Bonus if you can also tractor them in. Launch for corp + a few HP = Freighter-assisted mining operations.

Considering mining needs spicing up, and this is an easy fix (I imagine) this would be a nice start. Certainly cased a brief buzz in my corp until we learned, like many things in EVE, the permissions are completely screwed up to the point where using it in a group/team environment is pointless.

Again, I want risk associated with using the EFC, just not put at risk by civilian turrets. "Launch for Corp" would make them useful w/o needing a ship w/ a fleet hangar sitting on it. Don't even make scooping it up a crime - if you can ninja cans in a Freighter, you deserve them.

You're forgetting the 1.3 billion I paid for the Freighter to move these cans - not the smaller ones - and the Freighter I risk moving to pick up the cans. Both the Orca AND the DST's have significantly less cargo, and cannot help me support an op across multiple belts like dropping EFCs and picking them up will. Leaving a very large, but still very vulnerable can, which can only be picked up by a billion+ isk ship. A can that could be scooped up by someone else - not something you can do to a secure Orca/DST. The EFC lacks in that kind of security, once again opening you to can flippers. There's a large security hole that doesn't need fixing - read the last paragraph again. This will not make it a truly secure operation, it merely increases the size of the jet-can I normally mine into, and allows it to withstand civilian attacks. I have no qualms with someone ganking my can (or boat) in a Catalyst - that's part of the game. Someone in an Ibis, however, should not be a threat to my large cans.

I do not care if the cost increases - you're suggesting I'm against it.

There's no reason my EFC should be popped by civilian turrets. Please try harder than a single line of text next time and work on your reading comprehension. You missed a few points or were too lazy to put in the effort in talking about them, or both.

The point is to find a happy median between use and leaving you open to being attacked/disrupted. At no point do I want a secure can. With how slow a Freighter is, every time I went to pick up a can I'd be risking 1.3 billion ISK. You cannot claim using EFCs has no risk or cost, and is somehow more convenient than a Fleet Hangar that can't be stolen from.

This, in no way, settles the discussion or even begins to address the issue of the can accessibility. I think everyone should be able to access EFCs in space.

There should be more than one way to support a large-scale mining operation. Freighters should have some kind of role, considering they can move the most. EFCs are a great way to do that while maintaining risk. Your ore is susceptible to theft. Align hauler, grab and warp. Cloaky hauler can steal a lot. Using AN OPEN, UNSECURE, UNANCHORED CONTAINER with VERY LOW HP negates no risk. You are taking less risk with an Orca. Warp core stabs in the lows, use your web trick to gtfo at the first sign of trouble. Even better, skip the hauling altogether, invest no ISK in anything except a Small POS Tower, fuel, Orca to sit there and boost from said POS, and cheapo Retrievers for everyone. There's almost no risk and it's not a group activity at all!

Since you didn't elaborate on how to use the age-old webber trick in an actual sitauation here's one - warp your Freighter in and take my can. You can already do it, I propose that remains the same.

I suppose you guys don't mine too much as a big fleet because there's much a bigger degree of risk being taken over using a DST in this case. I can just as easily, for less ISK investment and so overall less risk use a DST (+5 warp core strength if I want it) which somehow is riskier and less convenient than leaving giant, open cans in a belt, ripe for stealing, and warping what boils down to defenseless capitals around, webs or not. Even with the webber trick and existence of Vigilants, people still manage to get their Freighters ganked on gates in high security, so not sure what your overall point was here. Pretty sure you could catch a Freighter if you were really set on it, especially with friends.

If anything, this creates opportunities to can-flip as a fleet. Fleet-sized cans = fleet-sized loot. If anyone would like to contribute more than a single sentence, please do. I'd enjoy some kind of actual dialogue, if it's not too much trouble, even if you disagree.

Feel your pain on this, in a previous corp I had to resolve the same problem of supporting multiple mining fleets in different belts/systems but I am not sure that a lager can is the answer. If they did go for the larger can option then withstanding a single smart bomb attack my be to too tough. I think basing the resistance to damage off of the current jet cans and adjusting for the greater mass may be a better option.

Thinking back on the fleets I used to set up I think the Miasmos may be a better option than the freighter.
Smaller, cheaper, aligns and warps faster and with lvl 5 skills can hold over 60,000 m3 of ore. Use these to feed the ore from belts to a station in each system and the have the freighter pick it up and move it on from there.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Miasmos

Put the cans off grid by a few hundred kilometers. No one will find them unless they probe, requires the miners and yourself to have the same BM with the occasional warp out. Not difficult, requires just a frigate with a MWD and proper planning + coordination between people.

Ignoring the "look how clever my comments are" crowd, I can't see why the EFC is so weak. The OP is correct in that it makes no sense for a rookie ship to be able to take down easily something that big. A container that size ought to have some thousands of HP at least.

I think i get what he is saying.

For example lets take a system with ....lets say 20 large belts.
different corps, a few npc corp peeps here and there....lets say maybe about 50-100 miners in a single constellation

The use of the EFC is because not enough ORca support exsists....but 3-4 Freighter pilots could warp around the constellation picking up the cans instead....seeding them into the belts as they pick some up.

SO im guessing this is the idea behind the OP....not a small fleet, not a single system operation....but maybe something more akin to alliance ops where the goal it so to strip every belt in several systems as fast as possible.....

Now imagine nullsec....if thes cans had really high HP...they would be a pain to kill...give time for a response force after the miners had evacuated....same thing for losec.

Im going to give a +1 just for the chance this guy may be thinking how to get multiple players involved in an enterprise that would be so extensive.

I would like to get something straight - I'm not asking how to run a fleet mining operation.

More importantly, this isn't the help section. I'm not confused as to how mining works - you don't need to tell me what already works and act like that even addresses my idea.

So, before we continue, does everyone understand that I'm not asking about alternatives? Does everyone understand this is not a thread asking how to use other stuff besides EFCs? I'm proposing this change to allow for more group dynamics - and I'm not just thinking of coddling miners.

As it stands right now, with the suggested methods - which are the most secure and efficient methods for the lowest investments compared to a single Freighter - I'd be much safe with an Orca or a DST. So let's not talk about how convenient this is to have a giant, open, accessible pallet of ore ripe for the taking when using a DST is a cheaper, safer alternative. We have a cheap and safe alternative to jet-can mining - using something with a Fleet Hangar. But what if you don't want safe? What if you don't want secure? What if you want what moves the most in the least amount of time?

This isn't about replacing the Orca. Orca works great for one thing - sitting in a POS and boosting. DST's move quicker, cost less, and are easier to skill for. I have no problem running my current operations. This works great for a single asteroid belt with a handful of miners. If I want to keep things at the cheapest, I leave the Orca in the small POS bubble, and haul with a Miasmos, and not even a DST. If you want to go cheaper, you just use Barges. We're not looking to go cheap, and there's no way to "go big" with mining. You just get 5 more guys, throw them in another belt and isolate them.

Why does the EFC have special permissions in the first place, though? What makes it special that I can't just say "Oh yeah, you can put that in that can"?

There's a great deal of risk involved way over that of using an Orca. Picture a belt with 2 EFC's sitting in it, multiple Hulks filling them up. How is that not an opportunity to do some griefing? If you make something convenient, but very, very risky, is that not striking some kind of balance? I thought this whole game's balance was based on risk vs. reward.

There's quite a lot of discussion on how to make mining more interesting. I think allowing more options to scale-up the size of your fleet is a good start. Giant jet-cans - only scoopable by a Freighter - can allow for that. Make your hauling team efficient as possible. It is not my goal to put a hauler in every single belt in a solar system, and no matter what, my miners have to jet-can ore at some point anyways. How does it change things when I buy a special giant can for the job?

At the very, very least, the can should be unlimited access for everyone, even if the HP doesn't change.

Yun Kuai - " jet can mining and EFC mining are the same thing if you're actively running a hauling team." Right. I want to run a hauling team. I already run a hauling team. I upgraded to the mack-daddy of hauling ships: a Freighter. Now, this Freighter has no use in the op. I'm well aware everyone can mine into jet-cans, and someone can pick up the ore. How is this any different when you scale it up? Suddenly, since my can is bigger, this is too easy? Since my hauler now costs 1.3 billion, this is too without risk and too convenient? Also, did you not think that the smaller the op, the longer the can sits in space? In order for the EFC use to be worth the risk, you'd need a lot of OreM3/minute to keep the cans from just sitting there for a while. There's no reason to try to support small-scale ops with a big open can that takes forever to fill. Fill a small can, scoop it - safer. If you're willing to take the risk, and leave yourself open to can-flippers and griefers, shouldn't you get some kind of benefit, especially when you up the ante and risk nearly 10x as much per can? EFC mining, like you clearly pointed out, is the same as jet-can mining, making it very unsafe. The trade-off for the convenience is leaving your entire fleet's worth of ore sitting there, ripe for the taking. This idea is literally no different than taking what is currently available in the game, and scaling it up. Jet-can mining goes big time.

TL;DR: The proposed changes are to A) make EFCs accessible to everyone all the time while in space and B) Give them just enough HP to withstand Civilian Weapon attacks. I have to buy/make them - you should have to buy/make something to kill it. None of this turns the game on it's head, and if anything, sets a standard for containers in space - it still makes no sense to have special permissions when they function exactly like giant, totally accessible jet-cans in nearly every other aspect, even if the HPs aren't altered.