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Cloak + Microwarpdrive Trick. Is it an exploit? Should it be?

Author
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#21 - 2014-10-24 18:12:37 UTC
The MWD + Cloak technique is just an extension of basic game mechanics. When you cloak, all non-targeted modules you have active de-activate at the end of their current cycle. This is true of hardeners, Damage Controls, and an abundance of other modules in addition to MWDs. This fact, coupled with the fact that you enter warp when you reach 75% of your current max speed, means that ships fit with a Cloak and a MWD can enter warp quickly and safely, yet not with 100% certainty, with a bit of practice.

In order to eliminate this technique, CCP would need to change the underlying mechanics of how ships warp, or the underlying mechanics of how ships cloak. Or both. This seems like an awful lot of work to change something that CCP has gone out of their way to keep the way it is on at least one occasion.

This is emergent gameplay. It's what happens in a sandbox. Learn the counters or find different targets; it should not change.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Cattegirn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-10-24 22:20:49 UTC
It still sucks. You shouldn't need state of the art tackling skills and equipment to catch every joe with a t1 mwd/cloak on his indy.
Claud Tiberius
#23 - 2014-10-25 05:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Claud Tiberius
Cloak and MWD only takes you so far, generally 2-5km. After that the transport speed usually drops down to around 90m/s.

Its very easy to find the transport if you have the numbers, equipment, position and patience.


Many times I have avoided gate camps while cloaked, with the campers chasing me only meters away :p

Cattegirn wrote:
It still sucks. You shouldn't need state of the art tackling skills and equipment to catch every joe with a t1 mwd/cloak on his indy.


Ironically I use state of the art modules to escape gate camps. As does every other smart hauler.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#24 - 2014-10-26 23:16:18 UTC
Yea it should exist and no it's not an exploit.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
#25 - 2014-10-27 02:56:06 UTC
You already have a mechanic that works very effectively against this "trick" in lowsec.

Smart bombing the out gates, but you find it easier coming to the forum to whine.

#nosympathy
Deryn Angrard
Lightning Squad
#26 - 2014-10-27 17:13:21 UTC
Do something else than sitting on gate in insta-lock ship if you have trouble with cloak+MWD, that thing is counter to your camp, adapt or lose kills.

easy way is an inty to decloak the hauler, then your insta-lockers can easily grab it thanks to MWD sig bloom.
Dimitryy
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#27 - 2014-10-29 00:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dimitryy
>People in low and nullsec

Hey there, leave nullsec out of this, lictors are a thing, and anchorables. Even in lowsec, this is rarely that much of an issue. On a well set gatecamp I probably catch mwd/cloak haulers 75% of the time, in the rare events that people actually try it.

If your gatecamps are having trouble with t1 haulers, consider positioning a few frigates around the gate at the decloak range, more or less opposite each other. This way when something jumps in, it's rarely more than like 5000m from a decloak. You can even get covops haulers like this sometimes.

Another way to get t1 haulers is to deploy drones in position to decloak people. I've heard some people say this is an exploit, but as long as it's not enough to lag people, I don't think CCP considers it one. If you're worried about it, you can use active drones to decloak, such as sentries off an ishtar, which is definitely not an exploit.

A very good setup is ishtars with drones deployed at jump in range, with the ships off the gate, RSBing an instalocker and with a few dudes in frigs in decloak position. 5-6 guys can pretty much gank any single ship that comes through the gate, although it's not that great for actually fighting anything.

Just keep in mind that you're literally talking about tech 1 haulers, believe me they're more afraid of you than you are of them.

-Dimi
Cattegirn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-10-30 00:00:22 UTC
Cattegirn wrote:
It still sucks. You shouldn't need state of the art tackling skills and equipment to catch every joe with a t1 mwd/cloak on his indy.


Quote:
Ironically I use state of the art modules to escape gate camps. As does every other smart hauler.


Oh look, there are other players out there that aren't as smart as you. :)
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#29 - 2014-11-02 01:23:06 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
leave lowsec and go to null where you can bubble the gate and no cloak + warp tricks


This is actually one of the best ways to get out of a bubble as well. You better be quick though, or the interceptors will decloak you. Which makes for good game play.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#30 - 2014-11-02 23:56:53 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Red Teufel wrote:
leave lowsec and go to null where you can bubble the gate and no cloak + warp tricks


This is actually one of the best ways to get out of a bubble as well. You better be quick though, or the interceptors will decloak you. Which makes for good game play.

If you manage to get out of a bubble like this they really didn't deserve the kill.

There are enough ways to counter this in low sec, but... effort.
If you want to shoot fish in a barrel, go get a barrel with fish instead of playing EVE.
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#31 - 2014-11-05 20:05:05 UTC
Well, this 'trick' is even easier to do now than it used to be...used to be that you had to click the MWD before/immediately after the cloak...

Currently, since they re-did the cloaking animation you actually have until the cloak animation is 100% complete (can be upwards of 6 seconds) to activate any modules. Though you are also fully visible for that same period of time as well.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#32 - 2014-11-06 09:23:04 UTC
nope. No exploit, legit tactic. If you want to chase such people, lowsec is wrong place for you, you should move into null where you can deploy bubbles.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-11-06 18:50:02 UTC
Riozuil wrote:
Players in low and nullsec space will certainly understand the frustration that comes along with having a gank all lined up only to have it ruined by a hauler having a Tech 1 Cloak and a microwarpdrive. I haven't seen any posts regarding this issue other than multiple forum posts encouraging players to use it. As the ganking party, it is one of the most aggrivating events that can occur when you have an instalocking ship, specifically designed to catch ships on a gate, and you have to simply watch your should be victim flying away.

The question I ask is this. Is this combination considered to be an exploit of game mechanics? If so is there a plan to modify game mechanics to remedy it? Or is this quasi-legal method being allowed in the interest of furthering the industrial needs of New Eden?

My opinion on the matter is this, and do feel free to disagree or rip me a new one, but if you have the ability to avoid targeting by another ship, and can instantly warp away after your cloak comes down you should be using a Covert Ops cloak. While the main ability of a Covert ops cloak compared to the rest is the ability to warp WHILE cloaked, only black ops battleships are capable of attaining the speed required to warp while cloaked without a covert ops cloak. That being said, any prop mods should shut off at the time the cloak is activated, not be allowed to run their full cycle while the cloak is on. If you can't activate an afterburner or microwarp drive while cloaked, even with a covert ops cloak, then how does the module continue to function after a cloaking device is activated? This combination has been a mainstay of EVE players for many years due to the clever manipulation of game mechanics, yet I feel those mechanics may need to be revisited.

Food for thought, and the start of what I hope will be a productive discussion folks


I'm not so sure it's an exploit, but I thank you for bringing it up because I do think it should change. I say this as an industrialist. While I do PvP and have PvP toons most of my hours online are used to tend to my industrial activities and I am much more often the mouse than the cat. Regardless, I do believe the MWDCloak trick is inappropriate. There should be a clear progression of skill and piloting for the industrialist. At the beginning with no skills or ships, the industrialist should be in T1 ships and be working in high sec. When he does venture into low sec in order to learn PI or whatever, his travel options should be severely limited, with his game plan being simply to avoid going through camps. This should motivate him to train for BR and DST. Industrialists should not consider heavy operations in low or null until they can fly these ships and fit them and use them tactically.

I am an avid user of DSTs. I find that 99.9% of random PvPers and even most campers in low sec are unprepared to tackle a DST, particularly when fitted with warp core stabs to bring the overall warp core strength to 3-5. DSTs are more effective than people give them credit for, but most don't know this because they just don't use DSTs. I recently talked with some friends about my use of the DST and an indy friend responded that in the situations where I was using a DST he just used a T1. Further, when we were advising a friend of ours on how to fit his new DST, my first friend did not advise him to fit a MMJD or extra warp stabs, but rather advised him to fit an MWD and cloak, just as a T1 would be fitted. Apparently the DST's survival mechanisms are not as effective as the MWDCloak trick that any ship can use.

I think the MWDCloak trick takes the fun out of being the mouse in the game of cat and mouse. I also think it runs contrary to the intended advantages that should be offered by DSTs and BRs.

Whether it should be classified as an exploit is iffy, but the MWDCloak trick is definitely unbalanced and frustrates PvPers and frankly even penalizes industrialists, who should be required to devote themselves to good piloting just like any other Eve player.

I'm against suicide ganking. I am for faster concord. I am for reasonable war dec. I do not object to high sec being a happy happy care bear land. My attitudes are normally squarely in line with typical industrialist thinking. But on this issue I side completely with the PvPers. Once you leave high sec, industrialist or not, cat or mouse, you need to be able to pilot. You need to train the right ships and use the right techniques. The MWDCloak trick runs completely contrary to all that.
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