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[Phoebe] Stealth Bombers

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Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#341 - 2014-10-16 19:44:32 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Nys Cron wrote:

This is exactly what I meant earlier. For a larger entity like SSC having dedicated smartbombers or multiple carriers might be feasible but for smaller entities it isn't. They will simply lose one more option to have a chance against larger numbers.

For us on the other hand it could mean that we a guaranteed to win all fights against smaller entites relying on capitals because we can just bring a couple bombers (ideally multiboxed by a single person) and guarantee neuting out their carrier without risking expensive Bhaalgorns and such.


Indeed neuting out a capital should require fielding a bhaal or neut legions or whatever, being able to cap nuke them with bombers and hold em capped with 1-2 incidental neuts is just cheap and nasty.

I can see the intended application against apex forces, etc. but the knock on effect is potentially quite tragic.


A base Archon has 65k cap and a 2.9k sig radius . Just that alone requires 7 bombers to cap out. At base cap assuming that the sig radius/explosion radius ratio for neut application is what I think it is. Even if it was doing full cap drain that's still 5 bombers unless I'm missing something that's not an inconsequential number of pilots to devote to the task...
Tral Karith
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2014-10-16 19:46:16 UTC
So lets all quit bringing 90 bombers to big fleet fights and fight like real men with guns and missiles

Maybe even some Rokhs and Maelstroms
Lugh Crow-Slave
#343 - 2014-10-16 19:47:15 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Nys Cron wrote:

This is exactly what I meant earlier. For a larger entity like SSC having dedicated smartbombers or multiple carriers might be feasible but for smaller entities it isn't. They will simply lose one more option to have a chance against larger numbers.

For us on the other hand it could mean that we a guaranteed to win all fights against smaller entites relying on capitals because we can just bring a couple bombers (ideally multiboxed by a single person) and guarantee neuting out their carrier without risking expensive Bhaalgorns and such.


Indeed neuting out a capital should require fielding a bhaal or neut legions or whatever, being able to cap nuke them with bombers and hold em capped with 1-2 incidental neuts is just cheap and nasty.

I can see the intended application against apex forces, etc. but the knock on effect is potentially quite tragic.


A base Archon has 65k cap and a 2.9k sig radius . Just that alone requires 7 bombers to cap out. At base cap assuming that the sig radius/explosion radius ratio for neut application is what I think it is. Even if it was doing full cap drain that's still 5 bombers unless I'm missing something that's not an inconsequential number of pilots to devote to the task...



7 bombers is the size of a wave not to mention that archon is not at full cap it will be repping up its friends probably balancing around 35-45% cap when the bombs hit

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#344 - 2014-10-16 19:48:18 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
Yes, you guys might not be able to warp down to a target at 30km and remained cloaked, and then pre-align your ships before decloaking and bombing.

The horror.

Or actually welcome to how every bombing run worked before the cloak changes.


That is some great constructive feedback that will appease the players.

How about you stop making things worse and go get us an answer regarding cloaked ships showing to fleet mates?!

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#345 - 2014-10-16 19:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Nys Cron wrote:

This is exactly what I meant earlier. For a larger entity like SSC having dedicated smartbombers or multiple carriers might be feasible but for smaller entities it isn't. They will simply lose one more option to have a chance against larger numbers.

For us on the other hand it could mean that we a guaranteed to win all fights against smaller entites relying on capitals because we can just bring a couple bombers (ideally multiboxed by a single person) and guarantee neuting out their carrier without risking expensive Bhaalgorns and such.


Indeed neuting out a capital should require fielding a bhaal or neut legions or whatever, being able to cap nuke them with bombers and hold em capped with 1-2 incidental neuts is just cheap and nasty.

I can see the intended application against apex forces, etc. but the knock on effect is potentially quite tragic.


A base Archon has 65k cap and a 2.9k sig radius . Just that alone requires 7 bombers to cap out. At base cap assuming that the sig radius/explosion radius ratio for neut application is what I think it is. Even if it was doing full cap drain that's still 5 bombers unless I'm missing something that's not an inconsequential number of pilots to devote to the task...



7 bombers is the size of a wave not to mention that archon is not at full cap it will be repping up its friends probably balancing around 35-45% cap when the bombs hit


Right. Thanks. I don't have EFT in front of me to see what the total cap might be on a typical carrier pilot but the tone of the criticism was making it seem like a less than full wave of bombers was going to decimate a cap fielded by a smaller group. If you're dropping a carrier on a group that can *also* send a wave of 7 bombers at you, maybe you made a bad decision to begin with because if those pilots where in other ships, you'd probably be screwed too.
Herrin Asura
Covert Operations Agency
#346 - 2014-10-16 19:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Herrin Asura
progodlegend wrote:

Or actually welcome to how every bombing run worked before the cloak changes.


And EVERYONE was HAPPY that these times changed.

Why? Because Bombers sucked back then.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#347 - 2014-10-16 19:50:06 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Saisin wrote:


When doing a fleet warp, please keep the positions of all the members in the fleet relative to each others identical than what it was at the beginning of the warp, rather than making all of them warp randomly within a 2km bubble at the warp out point.



this would be amazing and not just for bombers use the person who initiated the fleet warp as a reference for where the "center" is when landing


Absolutely..
The person who initiated the warp fleet does land within a bubble 2km from the warp out point, like it does today, but all the other fleet members would land exactly in their original relative positions from the person who initiated the fleet warp.

I think it should be a new fleet warp option (Formation warp), rather than a replacement to the current fleet warp, as the current fleet warp as it is would still be useful to travel from gates to gates.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#348 - 2014-10-16 19:50:12 UTC
Cloaked ships de-cloaking other ships basically takes the fun out of bombers UNLESS you also make it possible to see cloaked ships in your fleet.
fox targaryen
Doomheim
#349 - 2014-10-16 19:52:02 UTC
>Cloaked ships will once again decloak each other if they come within 2km.

you have killed real bomber fleets and buffed ISBoxer with this change
Jean Leaner
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#350 - 2014-10-16 19:52:10 UTC
The number of logical fallacies being used to justify people disliking this change is hilarious.
Trey Kutoi
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#351 - 2014-10-16 19:53:16 UTC
since bombs have constant velocity, can we give bombers cruises (and missiles in general) and make them useful by assigning them mass, then giving them an acceleration value?That way they have the option of projecting damage to targets without instablapping all the little stuff in between.

Also I like the idea of unguided weapons, perhaps creating 'true' rockets rather than 'lower range higher dps light missiles' or whatever.

As a new player, perhaps I don't understand the nuances behind interweaved mechanics, but from the littleI've seen so far, something feels missing with delayed damage weapon systems
Lugh Crow-Slave
#352 - 2014-10-16 19:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Obil Que wrote:


Right. Thanks. I don't have EFT in front of me to see what the total cap might be on a typical carrier pilot but the tone of the criticism was making it seem like a less than full wave of bombers was going to decimate a cap fielded by a smaller group. If you're dropping a carrier on a group that can *also* send a wave of 7 bombers at you, maybe you made a bad decision to being with because if those pilots where in other ships, you'd probably be screwed too.


not really if you have a group of good pilots a single triage carrier can multiply your force to an extreme level but they would only need maybe 3-4 bombers and a curse to neut out an archon that is actively repping. just knocking an archon down below max recharge can kill it in triage.

now i'm not saying these bombs will destroy the chance of a small gang in every case i can see that and it may come to pass that they don't see wide use outside of ganking a ratting carrier or a supper fight however there is a chance that this could cripple small WH corps. On the flip side it can also make attacking a C1-C4 hole easier since you can now remove the home field cap advantage but that isn't quite as common


EDIT: once they are on SiSi i'll be able to test a bit more

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#353 - 2014-10-16 20:01:49 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
I think I speak for everyone when I say there should be some way to see the location of cloaked fleet members with the new changes.


This.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#354 - 2014-10-16 20:07:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These changes are intended to make it easier for fleets to counter bombers (whether the bombers are isboxed or not) and to make organization of characters valuable again for bombing. Organization of pilots is made easier in a lot of ways with isboxer, but that has always been true and isn't some new phenomenon coming from these changes.

Umm... bombing has been completely viable- why do you think there's next to no shield BS used in null anymore? Hell, none of this ends the stifling effect bombers have on fleet comps. And it just is a further boon to isboxing bombers.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#355 - 2014-10-16 20:25:20 UTC
Tral Karith wrote:
So lets all quit bringing 90 bombers to big fleet fights and fight like real men with guns and missiles

Maybe even some Rokhs and Maelstroms


Nah, that's crazy-talk..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#356 - 2014-10-16 20:29:33 UTC
List of good, balanced changes Fozzie has enacted:


watch me be a scurb and get owned
Evora Pirkibo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#357 - 2014-10-16 20:40:33 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
Yes, you guys might not be able to warp down to a target at 30km and remained cloaked, and then pre-align your ships before decloaking and bombing.

The horror.

Or actually welcome to how every bombing run worked before the cloak changes.


Or actually, welcome to admitting to not having the scope to realize the cloaking change affects more than bombers.

On a long enough timeline, the life expectancy of everyone drops to zero.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#358 - 2014-10-16 20:41:55 UTC
Evora Pirkibo wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Yes, you guys might not be able to warp down to a target at 30km and remained cloaked, and then pre-align your ships before decloaking and bombing.

The horror.

Or actually welcome to how every bombing run worked before the cloak changes.


Or actually, welcome to admitting to not having the scope to realize the cloaking change affects more than bombers.


What? no bombers are the only ships that even use cloaks..... =.=

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#359 - 2014-10-16 20:42:43 UTC
Tral Karith wrote:
So lets all quit bringing 90 bombers to big fleet fights and fight like real men with guns and missiles

Maybe even some Rokhs and Maelstroms



So lets all quit bringing 200 slowcats to big fleet fights and fight like real .MEN with guns and missiles


Fixed that for ya ;)
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#360 - 2014-10-16 20:46:37 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Tral Karith wrote:
So lets all quit bringing 90 bombers to big fleet fights and fight like real men with guns and missiles

Maybe even some Rokhs and Maelstroms



So lets all quit bringing 200 slowcats to big fleet fights and fight like real .MEN with guns and missiles


Fixed that for ya ;)


Oh, you mean sniping with tengus 220+km away and then QQ about how someone brought a Virtue prober and countered you effectively?