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The fix to logi
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#21 - 2014-10-15 20:50:50 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
What if you buffed the counters to logi instead. Add rigs to increase the range of energy neutralizers, for example.
afkalt wrote:
Anyone considered increasing cycle time (and rep amount) to allow target switching to be more effective?

Meh, already keep reppers on separate cycle timers to compensate, and I would prefer that fleets be less about alpha-ing ships off field, not more.

That and of course... shield reps at the start.

Though shield tanking already has enough suffering due to bombs, obviously this is not an issue in lowsec, where magic stops bombs from working (but soon, not doomsdays)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#22 - 2014-10-15 20:52:05 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
What if you buffed the counters to logi instead. Add rigs to increase the range of energy neutralizers, for



Tricky one - naturally the trade off would be neut amount for neut range but that can be worked around by just bringing more neut fit ships. It wouldn't harm though to have 1-2 more ships with neut range bonuses to give more tactical options for dealing with logis.
Biron Soringard
Absurdity of Abstractions
#23 - 2014-10-15 23:54:15 UTC
This would cause many problems with game balance. For one, the Shield Vs. Armor balance would go out the window. AHAC fleets would get a significant nerf, and nano shield gangs would become even more overpowered. Imagine Shield MWD Vagas or Ishtars with Scimi support with your change. High dps, high reps, high speed, ...

Plus, Shield BS with Triage would be nearly unassailable by anything other than a bigger Shield BS+Triage gang or tracking dreads.

Stacking penalty wouldn't really be ideal either. Incursions, POS repping fleets, highsec neutral logi games, supercarriers, and so on would all need rebalancing. Such a "cheap and easy" fix like adding stacking penalties would no longer be an easy fix when you consider how many other things would need to be changed. If that's going to happen, then there may as well be a more in-depth and well thought out change.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#24 - 2014-10-16 00:10:53 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Both stacking penalty and hard capping rep amount are horridly clunky "fixes" though it completely ignores any situational scaling outside of a specific context and can only really be applied ideally to a specific situation and doesn't fit very well outside of that.


Explain your thoughts on situation scaling?


Your sticking a 1 size fits all solution that the whole of eve would have to live with regardless of whether there was a problem with logistics involved in what they are doing or not.

Logistics Fatigue.


Keep crying.

Killing slowcats.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-10-16 00:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
I think the stacking penalty would address this issue nicely Smile

Oh and on the shield vs armour issue, perhaps the cycle time of armour reps could be decreased (normalising all other stats like power use, amount repaired etc) so you don't have to wait as long for the result. Just a thought.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#26 - 2014-10-16 07:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Just give reps stacking penalties, much as many active mods have. No need to add anything special or extra that needs to be calculated regarding size or surface area.




Yeah but if after the 5th remote rep on a ship every additional doesn't do anything, you might aswell remove Logi completely, or have to enhance them significantly in their rep amount, giving you the possibility to run double Oneiros into Victory in every small gang.


Edit:


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3879301#post3879301

post #1 and #3
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#27 - 2014-10-16 07:56:08 UTC
So we are giving DPS stacking penalties also? After all there is only so much space on the target ship for them to shoot also.
If you want to give Reps stacking penalties DPS has to take it also. Which may admittedly be a way to break the blob up. But would be incredibly hard to balance in such a way you can't make certain ships unkillable vs certain damage types.
Sig size & fall off, meh, not opposed to it. Though Large Reps are actually cruiser sized modules remember. Not BS sized modules.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#28 - 2014-10-16 07:58:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So we are giving DPS stacking penalties also? After all there is only so much space on the target ship for them to shoot also.
If you want to give Reps stacking penalties DPS has to take it also. Which may admittedly be a way to break the blob up. But would be incredibly hard to balance in such a way you can't make certain ships unkillable vs certain damage types.
Sig size & fall off, meh, not opposed to it. Though Large Reps are actually cruiser sized modules remember. Not BS sized modules.


Nope, they are BS-Sized. T2 Logi just have a bonus towards them.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#29 - 2014-10-16 08:59:44 UTC
What is the actual problem this suggestion tries to solve?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#30 - 2014-10-16 09:09:29 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So we are giving DPS stacking penalties also? After all there is only so much space on the target ship for them to shoot also.
If you want to give Reps stacking penalties DPS has to take it also. Which may admittedly be a way to break the blob up. But would be incredibly hard to balance in such a way you can't make certain ships unkillable vs certain damage types.
Sig size & fall off, meh, not opposed to it. Though Large Reps are actually cruiser sized modules remember. Not BS sized modules.


Nope, they are BS-Sized. T2 Logi just have a bonus towards them.

If they were truely BS sized, it would be impossible to get a full rack of them onto a t1 cruiser. It is possible (but hard and annoying) to do so with the t1 cruisers.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#31 - 2014-10-16 09:22:11 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So we are giving DPS stacking penalties also? After all there is only so much space on the target ship for them to shoot also.
If you want to give Reps stacking penalties DPS has to take it also. Which may admittedly be a way to break the blob up. But would be incredibly hard to balance in such a way you can't make certain ships unkillable vs certain damage types.
Sig size & fall off, meh, not opposed to it. Though Large Reps are actually cruiser sized modules remember. Not BS sized modules.


Nope, they are BS-Sized. T2 Logi just have a bonus towards them.

If they were truely BS sized, it would be impossible to get a full rack of them onto a t1 cruiser. It is possible (but hard and annoying) to do so with the t1 cruisers.


So by your definition, a 100MN Afterburner, and partially MWD, are cruiser sized modules.
Kkthxbye
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#32 - 2014-10-16 09:35:52 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So we are giving DPS stacking penalties also? After all there is only so much space on the target ship for them to shoot also.
If you want to give Reps stacking penalties DPS has to take it also. Which may admittedly be a way to break the blob up. But would be incredibly hard to balance in such a way you can't make certain ships unkillable vs certain damage types.
Sig size & fall off, meh, not opposed to it. Though Large Reps are actually cruiser sized modules remember. Not BS sized modules.


Nope, they are BS-Sized. T2 Logi just have a bonus towards them.

If they were truely BS sized, it would be impossible to get a full rack of them onto a t1 cruiser. It is possible (but hard and annoying) to do so with the t1 cruisers.


So by your definition, a 100MN Afterburner, and partially MWD, are cruiser sized modules.
Kkthxbye

I'm sorry, can they be fit like that? yes? are they effective like that? then they are whatever size of ship they can be effectively fit to.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2014-10-16 09:59:41 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So we are giving DPS stacking penalties also? After all there is only so much space on the target ship for them to shoot also.
If you want to give Reps stacking penalties DPS has to take it also. Which may admittedly be a way to break the blob up. But would be incredibly hard to balance in such a way you can't make certain ships unkillable vs certain damage types.
Sig size & fall off, meh, not opposed to it. Though Large Reps are actually cruiser sized modules remember. Not BS sized modules.


Nope, they are BS-Sized. T2 Logi just have a bonus towards them.

If they were truely BS sized, it would be impossible to get a full rack of them onto a t1 cruiser. It is possible (but hard and annoying) to do so with the t1 cruisers.


So by your definition, a 100MN Afterburner, and partially MWD, are cruiser sized modules.
Kkthxbye

I'm sorry, can they be fit like that? yes? are they effective like that? then they are whatever size of ship they can be effectively fit to.


Go ahead and link your T1 logi cruiser fits with full rack of large RR

no EFT fantasy fits pls
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-10-16 12:17:02 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:

Go ahead and link your T1 logi cruiser fits with full rack of large RR

no EFT fantasy fits pls



You don't, Normal fittings on the oneiros and scimitar use 90% of the time 2 large 2 med or 3 large and 1 med.
Its only the guardian and basillsk that you would normally find a full rack of 4 large reps... but they have the disadvantage of needing cap chains which as soon as you can start killing logis starts a chain reaction of fail as they all start flapping trying to sort the chains again.

People see Large reps and go OP OP OP, But the main benefit from fitting the large reps is rep range, you can almost get the same rep power and also be super cap stable while your at it by using dead-space med reps. or even just medium reps depending on what your trying to rep.

I don't see a problem with logis, They are quite hard to fly super efficient compared to flying a dps ship in a fleet, they can be blapped,ecm'ed damped,neuted,flown out of range, get stuck in bubbles easy, are slow compared to most other ships.
Solj RichPopolous
F I G H T C L U B
H A R D L I N E R S
#35 - 2014-10-16 13:13:32 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Solj RichPopolous wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Both stacking penalty and hard capping rep amount are horridly clunky "fixes" though it completely ignores any situational scaling outside of a specific context and can only really be applied ideally to a specific situation and doesn't fit very well outside of that.


Explain your thoughts on situation scaling?


Your sticking a 1 size fits all solution that the whole of eve would have to live with regardless of whether there was a problem with logistics involved in what they are doing or not.

Logistics Fatigue.


I love it lol
Solj RichPopolous
F I G H T C L U B
H A R D L I N E R S
#36 - 2014-10-16 13:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Solj RichPopolous
King Fu Hostile wrote:
What is the actual problem this suggestion tries to solve?



Looking to solve the logi invincibility issue with this game. I think logi should extend the life of a ship in a situation but shouldn't make it outright invincible at least not in small gang engagements.

Logi is overwhelmingly OP in small gangs. It's like 5 man roaming gang runs into 3 man gang with 3 logi. Fight never happens because theres no way they'd ever be able to break the logi. But if these changes were implemented the 5 man gang could outsmart or outmaneuver the 3 man gang for long enough to take out their logi.

But I would forego all the changes I even proposed to have logi have half the sensor strength that it does. I think that'd be a perfect fix on its own.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-10-16 14:11:19 UTC
Tappits wrote:
You don't, Normal fittings on the oneiros and scimitar use 90% of the time 2 large 2 med or 3 large and 1 med

Huh? Oneiroses run, cap stable, with four large. Why would you use a medium?
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#38 - 2014-10-16 14:28:36 UTC
Komi Toran wrote:
Tappits wrote:
You don't, Normal fittings on the oneiros and scimitar use 90% of the time 2 large 2 med or 3 large and 1 med

Huh? Oneiroses run, cap stable, with four large. Why would you use a medium?



If you want to do some hilarious fittings, like dualprop 1600mm stuff and the like, you gotta downgrade highslots.
Or pimp them. A-Type Bling Bling, shiny killmail
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#39 - 2014-10-16 14:34:09 UTC
-1

Other ideas.

Server/clients already track who is targeting who. Player A is targeting player B then player A and B cannot be targeted by a logistics ship, or a ship using logistics drones.

If you already have logistics targeted on you the instant you try to target another players ship your logi pilot loses target lock and cannot re-aquire.

Might be difficult to work out from CCP's end but this would remove the logi scourge from PvP without making it useless to the rest of the game where it is used and needed like Incursions and some small group low skilled WH players.
Ju0ZaS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-10-17 08:52:34 UTC
Nerf logi and brick idiots die. Kitting and grid positioning will be king. Will make this game more interesting. :)

Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp?
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