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Allow Supers to Dock

Author
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-10-14 18:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Once Phoebe hits, the lore/mechanic justification that was in place to prevent capitals/supers from taking gates will be void.

This is now the time to allow supers to dock. I'm not going into a long winded post about why this is a good idea, but here are a few points:


  • Super pilots are effectively trapped in their space coffin
  • Supers see significantly less combat than subcapitals. When they are deployed, they rarely explode.
  • Forcing supers to park in POS really doesn't lead to much more combat, outside of the rare instance of a bumped titan
  • Jump fatigue makes it so supers can't bounce between stations to regen capacitor


Having so much EHP would lead to supers being able to undock and play station games, then lose aggression and redock without real risk of dying. In order to prevent this from being abused, docking rights should come with a 10-15 minute timer specifically prohibiting docking for supers, only caused by pvp aggression. If supers aggress on the undock, they would be unable to dock for 10-15 minutes.

Give us more options to engage in PVP rather than locking characters in ships that are stuck in space.

Edit: This has been brought up before, but this is considering new information from the upcoming Phoebe patch, so it is not simply a repeat thread.

Edit2: Please reference this idea for how to further balance the ability to dock supers via a sov structure that can be offlined by a hostile force, similar to jump bridges.
viverxia
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2014-10-14 18:07:32 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

Having so much EHP would lead to supers being able to undock and play station games, then lose aggression and redock without real risk of dying. In order to prevent this from being abused, docking rights should come with a 10-15 minute timer specifically prohibiting docking for supers, only caused by pvp aggression. If supers aggress on the undock, they would be unable to dock for 10-15 minutes.


To be honest, i see Carriers do this anyway, even without the stupid EHP that their super brethren have, then it's a more general issue that something that has to be focused to supers specifically.

Either way, +1
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-10-14 18:45:24 UTC
An alternate way to solve the undock games would be to only allow supercaps to dock at conquerable 0.0 stations. Note this is not the same thing as a player-built outpost -- conquerable stations are the three stations that are seeded in every conquerable 0.0 region. For example, Deklein's conqs are VFK, 3JN9, and CZD. Currently, these stations are completely useless, having been long-obsoleted by Crius. Giving them the ability to moor supercaps would make them hugely relevant again.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
Viral Society
#4 - 2014-10-14 18:49:33 UTC
Querns wrote:
An alternate way to solve the undock games would be to only allow supercaps to dock at conquerable 0.0 stations. Note this is not the same thing as a player-built outpost -- conquerable stations are the three stations that are seeded in every conquerable 0.0 region. For example, Deklein's conqs are VFK, 3JN9, and CZD. Currently, these stations are completely useless, having been long-obsoleted by Crius. Giving them the ability to moor supercaps would make them hugely relevant again.


I like that idea, and I think it's a good compromise. It also makes those stations conflict drivers, since it gives your enemies a known location to attack, and gives the holding entity a serious incentive to defend them. +1 for this idea.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2014-10-14 18:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Supercaps can already be stored inside CSMA's (sorry, the are now called XLarge Ship Maintenance Arrays). The requirements for anchoring these structures were reduced years ago, so you don't even need Sov to anchor one anymore.

Why are XLSMA's not sufficient for your purpose?

Is it because you don't want to be the next ALOD article?
Is it because you can't figure out how to secure an SMA from corp thieves?
Is it because it takes practice to find a swap to the titan location that doesn't result in a titan bumping off the POS structures?
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-10-14 18:53:50 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why are XLSMA's not sufficient for your purpose?


A better question would be: Why is there already a badly implemented workaround when every other type of ship can dock?

The reason for the above is that you'd need an alt corp specifically to store your super because of POS roles being garbage.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2014-10-14 18:59:56 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why are XLSMA's not sufficient for your purpose?


A better question would be: Why is there already a badly implemented workaround when every other type of ship can dock?

The reason for the above is that you'd need an alt corp specifically to store your super because of POS roles being garbage.


I personally think granting Supers the almost risk-free storage facilities that are Outposts and NPC stations will simply allow players to stockpile supers too easily. I'd much rather CCP improved POS roles instead, which will positively benefit a larger part of EvE's playerbase.

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-10-15 18:16:23 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why are XLSMA's not sufficient for your purpose?


A better question would be: Why is there already a badly implemented workaround when every other type of ship can dock?

The reason for the above is that you'd need an alt corp specifically to store your super because of POS roles being garbage.


I personally think granting Supers the almost risk-free storage facilities that are Outposts and NPC stations will simply allow players to stockpile supers too easily. I'd much rather CCP improved POS roles instead, which will positively benefit a larger part of EvE's playerbase.



It's been noted by CCP that POS code is beyond repair at this point without a complete overhaul- which won't happen any time soon.

The change with supers is turning a 0 into a 1, adding a suitable aggression dock timer, and ensuring that the ship model doesn't break in station view.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2014-10-15 18:59:46 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Why are XLSMA's not sufficient for your purpose?


A better question would be: Why is there already a badly implemented workaround when every other type of ship can dock?

The reason for the above is that you'd need an alt corp specifically to store your super because of POS roles being garbage.


I personally think granting Supers the almost risk-free storage facilities that are Outposts and NPC stations will simply allow players to stockpile supers too easily. I'd much rather CCP improved POS roles instead, which will positively benefit a larger part of EvE's playerbase.



We already have huge stockpiles of the things. The special status of these ships ended several years ago when we started to deploy fleets of them.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#10 - 2014-10-15 19:10:34 UTC
I support a dry dock option for supers. I'm not looking at this as any future content for myself, simply as an avenue for other players of EVE.

Allow Super Cap players a single Super to be in dry dock at one time. When you put your Super in Dry Dock it must stay there for a minimum of 72 hours and a 6 month timer is set off as to when you can do it again.

They could even add it to sheet like the remap points. Only one dry dock point is ever available at a time, it renews every 6 months, it is used upon dry dock. As ship in Dry dock shows in contract assets, not local assets and must be deployed/ delivers to activate.

They are a player liability at this point in EVE. Nobody is going to keep a Super Cap account active full time unless they are plexed on the back of their alliance.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-10-15 19:41:58 UTC
I always thought that the reason super caps couldn't dock was because of their size. For instance, a titan is as long as most stations are wide. Maybe allow them to couple (as opposed to docking) with the station. That way the ship is connected to the station and the pilot has access to station services, but the ship itself is attached to the outer hull of the station. The ship could still be attacked by other players, but it would count as an aggression towards the station as well as the pilot because attacking a ship that is coupled with the station could damage the station and places the inhabitants of the station at an obvious risk. That way even if the ship coupled with the station is a legal target, the attacking pilots will have to wait for the ship to uncouple unless they want to be attacked by station guns.

Then again, I don't really know anything about super caps, so my idea might sound completely ********. It was just an idea that I pulled out of my ass as an alternative to trying to shove a ship that is half the size of a station into a station.

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-10-15 19:45:48 UTC
The whole "the ship is bigger than the station" argument is not valid, or else how would jita 4-4 CNAP exist?
Wolf Incaelum
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-10-15 19:56:05 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
The whole "the ship is bigger than the station" argument is not valid, or else how would jita 4-4 CNAP exist?


I don't know what CNAP is. Lol. I just always thought that the reason super caps couldn't dock at a station was literally because they are too big. Althought, since you mention Jita 4-4, I suppose the argument WOULD be invalid because of the number players allowed to dock at the station. I'm sure the total size of all the ships docked at any given moment is probably pretty close to the size of a super cap, if not more.

ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#14 - 2014-10-15 20:00:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Wolf Incaelum wrote:
I always thought that the reason super caps couldn't dock was because of their size. For instance, a titan is as long as most stations are wide. Maybe allow them to couple (as opposed to docking) with the station. That way the ship is connected to the station and the pilot has access to station services, but the ship itself is attached to the outer hull of the station. The ship could still be attacked by other players, but it would count as an aggression towards the station as well as the pilot because attacking a ship that is coupled with the station could damage the station and places the inhabitants of the station at an obvious risk. That way even if the ship coupled with the station is a legal target, the attacking pilots will have to wait for the ship to uncouple unless they want to be attacked by station guns.

Then again, I don't really know anything about super caps, so my idea might sound completely ********. It was just an idea that I pulled out of my ass as an alternative to trying to shove a ship that is half the size of a station into a station.


Nullsec outposts don't have station guns, and it is trivial to tank even deathstar POS's with any sizeable force. Essentially, the "docked supercap"would be a death sentence the moment a hostile noticed the super.

Inside a XLSMA is the optimal solution for "docking" supers. They are still at risk there, as a POS can be destroyed. However, they are protected by the POS FF (as long as the POS is fueled), they require a upkeep charge (you have to fuel the POS), and the assets can still escape an assault on the POS (they can access the SMA while the tower is in RF, and then may log out inside the POS FF (or cyno out if it isn't bubbled).

The only reason it isn't more common practice is because it is hard to make POS assets "safe". Just ask any WH resident. Directors, the CEO, and anyone with the right/wrong access may take the supercap out of the SMA, not to mention anywone with Config Strarbase Equipment may offline the POS making the XLSMA an easy-to-destroy target. Finally, anyone with fuel roles may simply remove the tower's fuel, so it goes offline and exposes the XLSMA to direct fire.

In contrast, there is very little downsides to storing your super inside a station, especially an NPC station. It's essentially 100% safe there: No one can steal it. No one can destroy it. You don't have to worry about upkeep. You can instant travel to it (via jump clones) whenever you want to use it. In station, you could also contract it (for safe sales), trade it, and even insure it. Of course every supercap pilot likes these benefits, especially because they sacrifice NOTHING to gain them.

If CCP wants to continue making owning and operating a supercap difficult and dangerous, then the only compromise is to utilize XLSMA's and update Corporate roles to enhance security on these POS's.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-10-15 20:11:23 UTC
Or they can allow supers to dock so that strategically storing your ships actually matter with the jump changes? If you can get the jump on a station with supers docked, you could completely remove them from whatever objective you're trying to accomplish.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#16 - 2014-10-15 20:22:32 UTC
Nope. For all the reasons Gizznitt mentions.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-10-15 20:39:30 UTC
When is the last time a super has been killed in a pos CSAA that wasn't being built, or killed in a pos other than being exploit bumped? Especially once the jump changes hit and you can't immediately send a super fleet across the map to kill one?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#18 - 2014-10-15 21:02:56 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
When is the last time a super has been killed in a pos CSAA that wasn't being built, or killed in a pos other than being exploit bumped? Especially once the jump changes hit and you can't immediately send a super fleet across the map to kill one?


First off, the ONLY way a super can be killed in a CSAA is while it is being built. After the CSAA finishes, it is delivered to a CSMA (aka XLSMA).

Two supers were caught in an XL SMA around 3 weeks ago.


Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-10-15 21:13:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
When is the last time a super has been killed in a pos CSAA that wasn't being built, or killed in a pos other than being exploit bumped? Especially once the jump changes hit and you can't immediately send a super fleet across the map to kill one?


First off, the ONLY way a super can be killed in a CSAA is while it is being built. After the CSAA finishes, it is delivered to a CSMA (aka XLSMA).

Two supers were caught in an XL SMA around 3 weeks ago.





Referring to an offline tower that had stuff killed in it is hardly justification for keeping supers in a POS. Elite pvp right there Roll
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#20 - 2014-10-15 21:28:26 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
When is the last time a super has been killed in a pos CSAA that wasn't being built, or killed in a pos other than being exploit bumped? Especially once the jump changes hit and you can't immediately send a super fleet across the map to kill one?


First off, the ONLY way a super can be killed in a CSAA is while it is being built. After the CSAA finishes, it is delivered to a CSMA (aka XLSMA).

Two supers were caught in an XL SMA around 3 weeks ago.





Referring to an offline tower that had stuff killed in it is hardly justification for keeping supers in a POS. Elite pvp right there Roll


You asked when the last time a super was killed in a POS CSMA. Obviously a super inside a POS storage facility isn't engaged in PvP. Maybe you should frame your question better, and explicitly state what information you are looking for.

How about you explain how docking supers in a station will result in more PvP?
How about you explain why super's should gain the enormous list of benefits (direct transport to your stored super by Jump Clones, Insurance, Contracts and Station Trades, 100% safety, etc) that come wiht storing a super in a station, as opposed to a POS.


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