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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Ukiah Oregan
Lithomancers
#961 - 2014-10-11 06:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ukiah Oregan
JC Anderson wrote:
As a side note... Look on the bright side people.

INFINITE SKILL QUEUES!


to support all the Timers you have to wait for
alizter01
RockStar mining company
#962 - 2014-10-11 06:56:44 UTC
dam my rorq has no resale value :(
Ukiah Oregan
Lithomancers
#963 - 2014-10-11 07:20:02 UTC
A No Timer Interactive Game Mechanic Idea:

Hull Decay Factor

Each hull would have a decay factor

Each time that Hull jumps the decay value increases

--insert fancy mathematical calculation for rate of decay versus LY traveled divided by Hull class decay ratio

--insert fancy mathematical calculation for determining FATAL decay value for each Hull class

When decay value reaches Fatal limit ship crashes and burns - literally

--generate killmail that would explain the pilots negligence to maintain his/her ship properly because its internal sub system failed allowing environmental radiation to cause an overload of the core breaching the core safeties and triggering an catastrophic failure of the core. this was contributed to the stress and over use of the ship..

Hull Decay Factor would be a non repairable, persistent value

If Hull is sold,contracted, traded or borrowed the Hull Decay Factor remains and will continue to increase as warranted

This would allow the Pilot to decide how, where and when to use his/her ship

--The decay factor could also contribute to an overall reduction to structure and hull hit points also decreasing the value of the ship over time prior to total melt down

Theoretical Outcomes:

All jump capable hull will have to be replaced based on their decay value over all (unless they are never jumped)

This may result in an increase in ALL jump capable hull production

This may result in a "used" Jump capable hull market - with varying cost based on the hull decay ratio

Players get to continue to decide how to play when and how they want to play

causes a long term ISK sink for owning and operating a Jump capable hull

May increases the cost of frequently far flung "Force projection" over time

-- force project could still happen but with a consequence - it allows the players to make that decision instead of CCP

Environment

Space is hostile - does it really make sense for a specific hull that was produced 10 years ago to be able to continue to function as if it was brand new today ?

I've gotten tired of spreading hate......wanted to pitch an idea instead.......

JUST SAY NO TO TIMERS!

No More Timers Please
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#964 - 2014-10-11 07:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
I can deal with no timers.... but when CCP Giligan sees this he might find genius in it.....


Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers. Just say NO!!! to timers.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#965 - 2014-10-11 07:45:09 UTC
Just say NO!!! to timers.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#966 - 2014-10-11 07:45:55 UTC
Just say NO!!! to timers.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#967 - 2014-10-11 07:46:09 UTC
Ukiah Oregan wrote:
A No Timer Interactive Game Mechanic Idea:

Hull Decay Factor

Each hull would have a decay factor


This would allow the Pilot to decide how, where and when to use his/her ship



You will not even slow the biggest nullsec blocks down with anything that can be solved by throwing money at it.

This idea is actually a lot worse than Greyscale's already spectacularly bad one.

^^
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#968 - 2014-10-11 07:49:47 UTC
Amanda Orion wrote:
Ukiah Oregan wrote:
A No Timer Interactive Game Mechanic Idea:

Hull Decay Factor

Each hull would have a decay factor


This would allow the Pilot to decide how, where and when to use his/her ship



You will not even slow the biggest nullsec blocks down with anything that can be solved by throwing money at it.

This idea is actually a lot worse than Greyscale's already spectacularly bad one.

^^




Yeah, but what if he LIKES it? >_>

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#969 - 2014-10-11 07:52:16 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

Perhaps both?

As far as the exploit that is going to happen in reguards to abusing the 90-95% reduction in Jump Fatigue - everyone is making plans to do it. Ship fits are being finalized, routes, the works. So it really is not a matter of if players will abuse it, but more of a matter of how long after Phoebe hits will CCP decide to fix the loophole. So hopefully Phoebe 1.1 will include this and CCP will not wait too long to do the update.

I don't like the loophole, but if CCP insists on shipping Phoebe with it, there is not much else one can do but wait till they patch it out later. Other than that, it looks like a hopeful expansion to maybe cause some breakup of the super coalitions. It really feels like a coin toss to be honest.

The other features coming with the expansion are real nice. Lots of good stuff that everyone will enjoy, no matter what flag they are flying. There is still tons and tons of room for improvement all over the game, but as long as CCP keeps at it the game can be turned around and become highly enjoyable for current and (hopefully) future players.

Now, about that local chat window... P
Ukiah Oregan
Lithomancers
#970 - 2014-10-11 07:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ukiah Oregan
Amanda Orion wrote:


This idea is actually a lot worse than Greyscale's already spectacularly bad one.

^^



didn't say it was perfect

and admit as it is written isn't perfect by no means

it's more of a kernal of thought

such as

Decay increases when used repeatably to the point where if u traveled from Wicked Creek to Deklein your ship might not be able to make the return trip due to the decay factor

or every hour a hull is in space a hull decays .... etc.... no timer but s consequence for playing none the less - the player decides to play - CCP doesn't decide you can't play

unlike timers which punish game play

this wouldn't deny game play but still some time of consequence for the play

i think that's what is at the heart of my idea:

How do you not punish the player while allowing the player to continue doing what he/she wants while at the same time creating a consequence that the player will have to contend with at some point - but not immediately and not by sitting in a station spinning ship cause a TIMER says you can't play?
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#971 - 2014-10-11 07:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
You are deciding you can't play. They ain't stopping you from flying your ship, they even gave you more flexibility. Mechanics change, and this is for the better of pretty much everything. Hopefully the backdoors are removed.

Yaay!!!!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#972 - 2014-10-11 08:09:17 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Just say NO!!! to timers.


Timers are an interesting mechanic. They always seem to suck to no end when a group is on the offensive and they hit the timer brick wall and have to wrap up the fleet and reform at a later date. For defenders they are a blessing. Offering them time to form a defensive fleet, call in help, anything to try and repel the attackers. Well, unless of course you forgot to stront the tower? Ugh

Love them or hate them timers are needed. Just imagine your group just assembled this fancy new tower in a system to call home. You group doesn't have crazy good numbers in all time zones and you all slowly call it a night. As you all log back into the game the next day, you notice your POS is now in reinforce mode. Because of the timer now you have a chance to form some form a defense for when they come back. Basically a chance to fight for the moon.

Now imagine if there was no timer.

Your buddies and you would log back in and find the POS completely destroyed and most likely staring down the angry barrels of an enemy POS weapon system. All without even having a chance to defend your precious POS. Imagine if it was a station? You go to work with a decent amount of assets in a player built station, flip some burgers all day, come home and now the station belongs to someone else and all your internet spaceship stuff is trapped inside.

Why bother living and investing in a system, moon, POS, whatever if it can be snatched away from you in silly time zone wars without even having a chance to have some input into the game to keep it?

Players need to feel it is worth the risk of losing these things. This is done via rewards for investing in living out in null or holding a moon or what have you. No reward is worth the risk of losing everything because you decided to sleep, work, go to school, step out to the bar, go to Fanfest or basically have a normal life. Everyone would just dwell in NPC stations and never venture into the deep dark depths of the unknown*.

So while what we know as a timer might be changed, the principal will most likely be intact. A way to offer the defender a chance to actually defend without get an IV of Redbull and slip into some zombie, insomnia mode losing more weight than Christian Bale in the 'Machinist'.

Or, perhaps there is another reason for the timers, but this was always the one that made the most sense to me. I hope this drawn out version helps. If not, I'm sure there is legions of people typing furiously away to loudly tell me I am wrong in every possible way. Big smile
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#973 - 2014-10-11 08:10:54 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:

Is there any idea when you'll allow Carriers into Highsec?

Can it be done by Phoebe?


CCP Greyscale wrote:

No, it's technically trivial, the main work is in working through all the likely consequences and resolving any problems, and that'll take time.

I've actually written up a short essay on this topic for when you're ready to go public with the idea (after seeing how all this other stuff lands first no doubt). Cool

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Ukiah Oregan
Lithomancers
#974 - 2014-10-11 08:11:55 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
You are deciding you can't play.


It depends on the perspective of what one thinks of "play"

Like playing chess:

you make a move
then you wait (time limit) for the other player to move (time moved is scored)
then you make your move

Are you playing Chess 100% of the time?

or are you waiting for an external entity to make a decision before you can move again ?

Time Based Strategy games come to mind
Morrigan Arthie
Underdogs Corp
#975 - 2014-10-11 08:55:34 UTC
Null is dead because of stupid tidi. You take out a 50 man gang and spend 2 minutes at every gate, meanwhile any potential target or urgent fleet op gets away, now thats unbalanced.
Fix this and i will come back and pay for eve.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#976 - 2014-10-11 08:57:05 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.


Maybe because everybody knows without real changes to logistics this changes nothing at all, feels let down AGAIN and has just given up by now?
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#977 - 2014-10-11 08:59:23 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Just say NO!!! to timers.


Timers are an interesting mechanic. They always seem to suck to no end when a group is on the offensive and they hit the timer brick wall and have to wrap up the fleet and reform at a later date. For defenders they are a blessing. Offering them time to form a defensive fleet, call in help, anything to try and repel the attackers. Well, unless of course you forgot to stront the tower? Ugh

Love them or hate them timers are needed. Just imagine your group just assembled this fancy new tower in a system to call home. You group doesn't have crazy good numbers in all time zones and you all slowly call it a night. As you all log back into the game the next day, you notice your POS is now in reinforce mode. Because of the timer now you have a chance to form some form a defense for when they come back. Basically a chance to fight for the moon.

Now imagine if there was no timer.

Your buddies and you would log back in and find the POS completely destroyed and most likely staring down the angry barrels of an enemy POS weapon system. All without even having a chance to defend your precious POS. Imagine if it was a station? You go to work with a decent amount of assets in a player built station, flip some burgers all day, come home and now the station belongs to someone else and all your internet spaceship stuff is trapped inside.

Why bother living and investing in a system, moon, POS, whatever if it can be snatched away from you in silly time zone wars without even having a chance to have some input into the game to keep it?

Players need to feel it is worth the risk of losing these things. This is done via rewards for investing in living out in null or holding a moon or what have you. No reward is worth the risk of losing everything because you decided to sleep, work, go to school, step out to the bar, go to Fanfest or basically have a normal life. Everyone would just dwell in NPC stations and never venture into the deep dark depths of the unknown*.

So while what we know as a timer might be changed, the principal will most likely be intact. A way to offer the defender a chance to actually defend without get an IV of Redbull and slip into some zombie, insomnia mode losing more weight than Christian Bale in the 'Machinist'.

Or, perhaps there is another reason for the timers, but this was always the one that made the most sense to me. I hope this drawn out version helps. If not, I'm sure there is legions of people typing furiously away to loudly tell me I am wrong in every possible way. Big smile


True... but we were both being rather facetious... I'd say a SERIOUS no to these ship timers. Server lag has been reported from SISI and players getting clock ganked for using skills it takes a year to train is not only a funkiller it is basically dishonest. Several better ways have been suggested, but will not work if no one listens.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#978 - 2014-10-11 09:01:22 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.


Maybe because everybody knows without real changes to logistics this changes nothing at all, feels let down AGAIN and has just given up by now?


what would you define as real changes?

I mean 90% and double the jump range of almost everyone else. what more do you want?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#979 - 2014-10-11 09:13:44 UTC
Praal wrote:
There's more hindering null industry than just availability of resources.

Supplying null with pure local production faces the obstacle that if you produce enough of one item for it to be worth the effort, you do not have enough clients to use it. If you make small amounts of a variety of items your clients need, then you are faced with a huge amount of tedium. And if you make small amounts of a few items, it's not enough to sustain you as an industrialist.

And there's no easy solution to this because you can't artificially create bigger markets in null, nor can you reduce the tedium of making many different items without making materials/invention completely one dimensional.

My suggestion would be to stimulate null industry by making producing in null better in itself. Make costs lower in null and higher in hisec (better material reduction on null-only POS modules/station upgrades, etc). Make goo harder to move long distances (say it's unstable or something and can't be jumped around), but reshuffle moons (and recipes) so each zone is well suited to a certain group of items. Promote universe-wide logistics/trade of built stuff.

For example make Catch be suited to produce Lasers in the W part, cap mods in the S part, armor hardeners in the N and drones in the E part. But if we want Blasters we'd either produce them inefficiently or trade with manufacturers from S Fountain, N Perrigen or W Deklein.


Very good point and suggestion

The only thing i can see that would be a hindrance to that would be the "station may be inaccessible" aspect of it when people try to buy the products that are produced locally.

I mean the big groups can step up to the plate and make some "free trade zones" that are accessible to all without fear of destruction, but, if they do that more folks are going to holler about the blue doughnut even though that won't really be the case and if logistics allow for it, then just going to jita to sell their wares and buy what they need already accomplishes the same thing.

It is true that "there's no easy solution to this" and with that said, I have no doubt that the community will figure something out when left to their own devices.

o/
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#980 - 2014-10-11 09:28:54 UTC
alizter01 wrote:
dam my rorq has no resale value :(



I can trade it for a brand new bestower :)

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty