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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#381 - 2014-10-09 22:45:07 UTC
xttz wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?

Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?


Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply?


Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#382 - 2014-10-09 22:45:15 UTC
xttz wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?

Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?


Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply?

Hence why moons would have been inevitably been rebalanced afterwards as was mentioned in the original thread. Now we are going to have to wait though.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#383 - 2014-10-09 22:45:52 UTC
Camios wrote:
Querns wrote:
Camios wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.




I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships.

I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction.


How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor?


Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time.

Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#384 - 2014-10-09 22:47:47 UTC
xttz wrote:
xttz wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?

Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?


Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply?


Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available.

Moon minerals are the only issue. The rest can either be adapted too, or are in low enough quantity that mass hauling won't be required. If you only have Amarr ice, then just use amarr starbases. Would actually add a nice flavour to different regions of the game.
Odelll
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#385 - 2014-10-09 22:48:39 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Odelll wrote:
I was really looking forward to a new dawn in EvE, yet already CCP is folding.

The changes as they were meant the region of space directly effects what your able to build / field, finally we had a glimpse of space having meaning and may I even dream, an eve world without jita being the continuous feedback loop. As is, this concession will make most of these changes business as usual for most of Null.

TLDR; Stop listening to logistics tycoons, stay the coarse, remove empire trading from the nullsec equation all together and let us truely live in space!

I'm disappointed that you increased the JF range to 10AU
even more disappointed your giving Blops 8AU range + 50% reduction (T3+refit = new meta)

Please go back to shaking up the game, no more easy mode concessions!

Heh heh heh.....

Ah, amazing response. "remove empire trading"


Why does 0.0 HAVE to loop 99% of trade via 1 hi-sec hub? why do they have to enter hi-sec at all? you carve out an empire of your very own but still need to use the infrastructure of the very system your supposed to be the opposition of.

While it remains easier, cheaper and safer to travel/produce in hi-sec. Null will never be able to spread its wings.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#386 - 2014-10-09 22:48:58 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
xttz wrote:
xttz wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?

Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?


Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply?


Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available.

Moon minerals are the only issue. The rest can either be adapted too, or are in low enough quantity that mass hauling won't be required. If you only have Amarr ice, then just use amarr starbases. Would actually add a nice flavour to different regions of the game.


Ahahaha thank you for this I wasn't quite sure if you were trolling or not but now I'm sure.
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#387 - 2014-10-09 22:50:02 UTC
Querns wrote:
Camios wrote:
Querns wrote:
Camios wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.




I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships.

I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction.


How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor?


Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time.

Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does.


guys my afktar :(
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#388 - 2014-10-09 22:50:32 UTC
I still wonder if Greyscale got forced to make this JF change by someone higher up in CCP. It really doesnt fit with the rest of his vision at all and does substantially reduce the impact of the changes taken as a whole. In some of his replies he sounds pretty remorseful at having to compromise on this.
Saint Hecate
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2014-10-09 22:51:18 UTC
I have to say that im pretty sad about the jump freighter changes. I was really hoping the difficulty of importing would increase the demand of self supplied market hubs. I ran a jump freighter service for my last corp for about a year. It really made me understand the trouble easy importing can cause on someone who wants to build and having a meaningful impact on the market.

I think with the 5LY range it would of made importing hard enough that industrial corps/alliances would be welcome in nullsec again. Its really not very fun being out in the depths of nullsec and still having to compete with everyone in highsec for market share. The presence of Jita pretty much locked the price of everything down where it made it more feasible to import large quantities of items and sell them on the market instead of building the darn things! xD.

The capital jump changes have opened the market in a nice way for those that like building them. Its much harder and time consuming to move one from lowsec so i definitely appreciate that boost to local capital markets!

Im a small time builder, run a 5 man mining fleet so im not some huge monopoly alliance fueling machine like some people haha but I think even the little guys opinion can be helpful!

Im hoping eventually once all the phases of the changes fall into place we can enjoy locally grown economies out in nullsec that arent as heavily affected by highsec as they are now. It makes me sad that pretty much all of your value in nullsec is determined by how long and how many ships you can field on the battlefield as an individual pilot. Would love to see Building industrialist be the back bone of alliances again :).

Thanks for your time Greyscale and hope youll read my post! :).
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2014-10-09 22:52:56 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
a) it's not immediately obvious that this will be particularly viable in practice, and b) if it is, we'll just nerf it.

And you call it a sandbox?


I'm getting the uneasy feeling that Greyscale is not as proficient as I would have hoped when it comes to macro systems design, which would maintaining and up keeping a sandbox would necessitate. Rather, he seems to be only keen on looking at the issues in micro scale. He is trying to make a change a series of changes at micro level to tackle certain issues, which is not a good method of sandbox design. This is why, so far, Greyscale hasn't managed to focus on the source of the issues we all have been complaining about. Since he is seemingly unwilling to scrutinize the macro design, he has, so far, as the head of the null working group, only have been able to visit symptoms that he can perceive at a micro level.

The right way to do it would be to make adjustments at macro level and leave the rest to the players, in the true sandbox sense. Let's not forget that EVE is able to stand on a foundation of a relatively stable amount of subscriptions currently solely because it is a sandbox MMO, not a theme park. If you take a moment and notice how Greyscale is feeling comfortable calling shots and making decisions on how players should play EVE, I'm sure you'll be as worried as I am right now.

In contrast, Unifex always struck me as a thinking man. He was extremely proficient at visiting game design at a macro level. His absence is clearly being felt here.

We don't need somebody dictating a certain vision of how life should be in particular regions of New Eden. We don't need somebody making calls on which regions should be able to trade between themselves. Sadly, Greyscale comes off to me as exactly that man.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#391 - 2014-10-09 22:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Lallante wrote:
I still wonder if Greyscale got forced to make this JF change by someone higher up in CCP. It really doesnt fit with the rest of his vision at all and does substantially reduce the impact of the changes taken as a whole. In some of his replies he sounds pretty remorseful at having to compromise on this.


Aint that hard to figure out how this works - > listen to http://themittani.com/news/401k-june-alliance-update -> check the military head and the comments about GMs -> where is that person now and which alliance/coalition -> note change in reaction between original proposal and this now -> result

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#392 - 2014-10-09 22:55:46 UTC
xttz wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
xttz wrote:
xttz wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

So, being able to effortlessly jump all the materials you need from high sec into null sec has nothing to do with the fact that local null sec production never took off?

Do you actually believe what you write, or just propaganda?


Why would the existence of jump freighters have anything to do with the fact that a significant number of absolutely crucial items are simply not locally available in any specific region, and a plethora of others are incredibly inefficient to supply?


Although I suppose the total absence of regional ice products, moon minerals and NPC-seeded infrastructure hub upgrades is just propaganda, and your next post will prove that these things are actually readily available.

Moon minerals are the only issue. The rest can either be adapted too, or are in low enough quantity that mass hauling won't be required. If you only have Amarr ice, then just use amarr starbases. Would actually add a nice flavour to different regions of the game.


Ahahaha thank you for this I wasn't quite sure if you were trolling or not but now I'm sure.

Why do you think I am trolling? I can only see moon minerals as being the big issue. The only other thing I can think of is fuel for capital ships, which again you would still be able to get the ice for specific to the region. Anything else I am missing?
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#393 - 2014-10-09 22:55:50 UTC
Saint Hecate wrote:
Would love to see Building industrialist be the back bone of alliances again :).


Like ASCN or Big Blue? That ended well!
Psyatt
#394 - 2014-10-09 22:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Psyatt
The new numbers are much better. I have no doubts that further tweaks will follow through either patches or in the next update.



The Time of The Rorqnaught is upon us. If it is done right, then the "revisiting" that CCP has mentioned will be towards more combat and less whatever the heck it is supposed to do now. Give it the ability to team up into a triad of spider tanked Rorqs and field a decent wing of both miners and combat ships.

It was supposed to be some sort of deep-space mothership, so let's make it one. Rip through some belts, then reload the ships and be gone into jump. One Rorq with mining links and the other(s) with combat command links. Indi AND combat ship bays. Concurrent users to 20.

More fitting variety. Teams of Rorqs reach a synergy with the escorts and miners, as well as increased security for those expensive hulls.

The revisted Rorq... Not quite a Carrier.

Back on topic...


Will be fun to see just how quickly the creative ones find a way to make these changes work. Moving ships INSIDE JFs to be re-assembled, fitted, and then given to pilots... yeah, that will be an easy process.

The early gate battles are going to be bloody.

Shield-tanked, low-mass Wspace-traversing fleets may increase. Why risk the Titan bridge way the hell and gone from home when with 6 wspace transits the fleet is at the target? Rokhs become useful(as something besides Disco ships).

Dispersion of super-cap pilots. Predators always achieve a natural balance of hunting territory. Why get tired humping all those jumps when you can just live near the action? New corps that are aligned with old alliances, with pockets all over to spread the wealth, pilot alts, and supers.

Some pilots may even transition to newer entities to assist them in securing holdings. Nothing makes for pew-pew like being the new kids on the block.

Being a big fish in a small pond may begin to have meaning when the batphone cannot ring. Three or four Titans and a supporting fleet may mean something.

Going to be fun to observe...

Already hilarious that pilots would unsub then resu
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#395 - 2014-10-09 22:58:38 UTC
JEFFRAIDER wrote:
Querns wrote:

Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does.


guys my afktar :(

I meant gate to gate. :V

Ishtars that get caught ratting and die to interceptors are idiotlords and deserve their fate

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#396 - 2014-10-09 23:01:16 UTC
Querns wrote:
Camios wrote:
Querns wrote:
Camios wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,


  • All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.




I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships.

I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction.


How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor?


Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time.

Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does.


If what you say is correct, basically the nerf can totally be negated by using ship caches.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#397 - 2014-10-09 23:04:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Alp Khan wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
a) it's not immediately obvious that this will be particularly viable in practice, and b) if it is, we'll just nerf it.

And you call it a sandbox?


I'm getting the uneasy feeling that Greyscale is not as proficient as I would have hoped when it comes to macro systems design, which would maintaining and up keeping a sandbox would necessitate. Rather, he seems to be only keen on looking at the issues in micro scale. He is trying to make a change a series of changes at micro level to tackle certain issues, which is not a good method of sandbox design. This is why, so far, Greyscale hasn't managed to focus on the source of the issues we all have been complaining about. Since he is seemingly unwilling to scrutinize the macro design, he has, so far, as the head of the null working group, only have been able to visit symptoms that he can perceive at a micro level.

The right way to do it would be to make adjustments at macro level and leave the rest to the players, in the true sandbox sense. Let's not forget that EVE is able to stand on a foundation of a relatively stable amount of subscriptions currently solely because it is a sandbox MMO, not a theme park. If you take a moment and notice how Greyscale is feeling comfortable calling shots and making decisions on how players should play EVE, I'm sure you'll be as worried as I am right now.

In contrast, Unifex always struck me as a thinking man. He was extremely proficient at visiting game design at a macro level. His absence is clearly being felt here.

We don't need somebody dictating a certain vision of how life should be in particular regions of New Eden. We don't need somebody making calls on which regions should be able to trade between themselves. Sadly, Greyscale comes off to me as exactly that man.

Not at all. Every sandbox needs to have rules. Being not able to teleport instantly around the galaxy doesn't mean that the game isn't still a sandbox.

Greyscales vision is probably ahead of its time, and I'm sure many people just don't see the bigger picture. Ironically given your statement, it is people like yourself when focusing on your own individual situations who are looking at this on the micro level, when Greyscale is trying to implement changes to enable greater gameplay for the entirety of the game.

It is in everyone's interest to see the game flourish, and to be honest, Goonswarm will benefit as they will most likely adapt to any changes the most efficiently and still come out on top, but on top of a vastly improved game. Hopefully in the future he will get to implement his idea as he sees fit.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#398 - 2014-10-09 23:04:16 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Why do you think I am trolling? I can only see moon minerals as being the big issue. The only other thing I can think of is fuel for capital ships, which again you would still be able to get the ice for specific to the region. Anything else I am missing?

Planetary Command Centers, Infrastructure Hub upgrades, outpost upgrades, and (hardly worth mentioning) skillbooks.

Booster gas is also extremely regional and multiple types from disparate regions are needed to craft Improved and Strong boosters.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#399 - 2014-10-09 23:04:39 UTC
Capqu wrote:
dunno why you incur a fatigue on blops at all tbh, all it does is make you idle in your client for 30 mins afk cloaked in your targets' system while fatigue runs down. just a waste of time, it's not like you're vulnerable while you're cloaked there

everything else seems gr8, im glad our logistics players wont be committing sudoku

You're thinking of seppuku bro. A lot of us commit sudoku daily every morning and manage to make it through the day unscathed.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#400 - 2014-10-09 23:05:57 UTC
Camios wrote:
If what you say is correct, basically the nerf can totally be negated by using ship caches.

And it just got a lot easier now that Jump Freighters have nearly their entire range back!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.