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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Gwailar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2014-10-09 19:11:20 UTC
The smart money will be leveraging every ounce of mobility before these and subsequent changes to build strong bases of industry in null.

With these modifications, the deathblow to JF fleets from Jita has been delayed.

But the word is out: the future of null supply lines starts in null.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#142 - 2014-10-09 19:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
ADarwinAward Winner wrote:
9 LY lets jump freighters cover most of the regional gaps. Don't go all the way to 10.


Stain would get cut off unfairly. As well as drone regions just on the brink.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
Viral Society
#143 - 2014-10-09 19:14:25 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
ADarwinAward Winner wrote:
9 LY lets jump freighters cover most of the regional gaps. Don't go all the way to 10.


Stain would get cut off unfairly. As well as drone regions just on the brink.


Fair
Eve

You may choose exactly one.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#144 - 2014-10-09 19:15:12 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mixed feelings on this.

* I am really happy that non-combatant hauling ships are getting the 90% fatigue reduction -- that is something I had been pushing for and I'm happy you guys saw the light on that. Maybe extend this to mining ships, too?
* Pretty sad to see JFs getting 10LY range. Their 5LY range allowed for some meaningful ability to disrupt incoming logistics. 10LY eliminates a lot of possibilities here.
* Rorquals not getting the 10LY treatment is a little weird. Care to elaborate on why only JFs get the extra range?


I agree with this. Bumping jump freighters to 10 enables a heck of a lot of room for selling your garbage to Jita, but I get the issue of multiple cyno alts and stuff.

Yaay!!!!

Vista Roid
Original Sinners
Elysians
#145 - 2014-10-09 19:15:25 UTC
I think most of that makes sense however I think the fatigue needs to be capped. I think if ppl get the crazy fatigue number they are going to bail or un sub the toon. on top of that its not practical that in space you could change out an engine or something faster to allow jumping. Even capping fatigue at like 24 hrs images sense. If not I think there are going to be issues with charter transfers and sales.
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2014-10-09 19:16:50 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:

Also have you considered increasing the ship maintenance bays of ships like Titans and SCs so that they fit more of a "logistical" role? I think if a titan could have a 20-50million m^3 ship maintenance bay it could start tweaking the role of the ship and make it more en vogue. It would allow an alliance to have a strategic asset in the Titan, have a subcap escort fleet to position the titan (or titans) deep into enemy space, and be able to base out of it instead of forcing every attacking foe to live in NPC null. So in this brave new world with 50million m^3 SMAs, an alliance that would have moved 250 carriers twice - jumping from NPC station to NPC station completely risk free - could instead move 10 Titans + an escort fleet of 200. Through gates. Loaded with billions of isk worth of ships. Think of how glorious that could be! Please I need this.


This would work very well alongside a rethink of Clone Vat Bays (which are one of the longest-running pointless modules in the game). If you could 'export' jumpclones into in-game items and load them onto ships, Titans could be a real fleet logistics base.
Etrei Kordisin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2014-10-09 19:18:29 UTC
It's nice to know that CCP trusts the playerbase to not use the massive loophole that these changes open up, too. Nullsec players are absolutely above the idea of swapping to T1 industrials in order to utilise a starbase bridge network to jump halfway across eve in hardly any time.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#148 - 2014-10-09 19:21:28 UTC
Lets see how these new changes settle out. They can always adjust things if these don't do enough.


By the way, many organizations are not incentified to build in deep 0.0 because it is still easier to haul from Jita.
The, making it harder to haul from Jita part of the original plan could have been the first part to making null sec more self sufficient.

As long as it is easier to get things from Jita than build it themselves, they will. Its only human nature.

Torneach Structor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#149 - 2014-10-09 19:21:33 UTC
Tri Vetra wrote:
I guess there won't be any "freighter convoys" after all.

I think we can expect CCP to look at the JF ranges again after they make nullsec industry less inconvenient.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#150 - 2014-10-09 19:21:54 UTC
I'm much happier with where this leaves logistics. All of the feedback and chats, and coms have been fantastic.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

JEFFRAIDER
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2014-10-09 19:22:10 UTC
Etrei Kordisin wrote:
It's nice to know that CCP trusts the playerbase to not use the massive loophole that these changes open up, too. Nullsec players are absolutely above the idea of swapping to T1 industrials in order to utilise a starbase bridge network to jump halfway across eve in hardly any time.


Yeah this is a good point, what about dat?!
Tikitina
Doomheim
#152 - 2014-10-09 19:22:47 UTC
Etrei Kordisin wrote:
It's nice to know that CCP trusts the playerbase to not use the massive loophole that these changes open up, too. Nullsec players are absolutely above the idea of swapping to T1 industrials in order to utilise a starbase bridge network to jump halfway across eve in hardly any time.



That should not be allowed. CCP should change this before it goes live.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#153 - 2014-10-09 19:24:10 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
I don't really like the thought of Titan-bridged freighters working the same way after Phoebe as they do today. Transit logistics forms the industrial backbone of Nullsec Alliances and supercap production, and profoundly protects moongoo income streams (though the ability to defend quite so many moons is open to question).

Freighters, IMO, need to be left out of the equation to make this a meaningful nerf to coalition enablers. Supercaps look like they'll still be crazy powerful when all of this goes through, albeit easier to interdict along the way.

It seems like a terrible idea to keep giving modern Nullsec alliances the tools they need to import and export material in limitless quantity in the name of "smoothing out how terrible it is to do logistics." Logistics will never, ever, not be terrible. Players need their capacity to do bulk import and export of material reduced; it directly enables the larger coalitions to sustain nearly endless losses, which directly feeds into the n+1 gameplay that drives their formation. Please don't defang the Jump Drive Nerfs this badly, Greyscale! Keep Freighter Jump Fatigue high!


Quoting first post:

Quote:
The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.


Veskrashen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Also, to everyone who was wondering whether or not I listened, I read 4000 freaking posts by myself. Whether or not I agreed with the concerns was an open question, but I hope it was obvious from my posting that I was paying attention!

*Some* of us are stronk enough neckbeards to do all 403 pages. And we don't even get paid for it! Shocked

Solid changes, and while I would have preferred not to special-case JFs, I understand if was likely too much of a shock to nullsec logistics at this point. Good to see that you're looking at revisiting the issue as you continue to address nullsec industry.

Question: Do the jump portal bonuses for covert cynos and the inustrial bonus for blockade runners stack? In other words, does bridging a Blockade Runner via a BLOPS BS generate 5% of the usual fatigue, rather than 10%? Might create some very interesting ninja logistics options.


We're leaning towards "yes" because it's more in line with how multipliers usually work in EVE, and because we don't believe it'll be worth the hassle to have a BO chain set up just to move the pretty small volumes you can get into BRs slightly more efficiently. Trivial to switch to non-stacking if we want, though.

PotatoOverdose wrote:
Cool. Might also want to check this thread on reddit regarding super carrier projection with ascendancies and hyperspatial accelerators post-phoebe. Keep in mind that those super fits don't give up *too* much ehp given that you can swap the low slots back to combat fit fairly easily.


Ah, balls, I had a bullet written up for this and lost it along the way. Adding this to the OP:

Quote:
We're also not overly concerned yet about HG Ascendency capital fleets, since such capital movement would be very vulnerable to disruption and because it relies on very rare items. If this becomes a widespread usage pattern we will likely take action, and we'll be keeping a close eye on everything surrounding capital movement after Phoebe.


(We suspect that gate bubbles will prove to be a larger problem than drag bubbles.)

Pandaest Bee wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mixed feelings on this.

* Pretty sad to see JFs getting 10LY range. Their 5LY range allowed for some meaningful ability to disrupt incoming logistics. 10LY eliminates a lot of possibilities here.


- Yes, but that logistics is already in too fragile a place to be able to reliably survive that disruption


You mean to tell me you didn't just massively buff survivability of freighters and jump freighters? Feel free to revoke those changes if you've forgotten about them.


I don't mean the fragility of the ships, I mean the fragility of the sanity of the people flying them.

Fonac wrote:
\O/ yay updates.

First of all, thank you for taking your time to read and reply with feedback, that was very very cool.

1. I still feel the black ops need a smaller fatigue, i realise that they may be used a transportation ship instead of combat, but they have a very high skill requirement, and only a handfull of people can use them.
I've often had to jump several jumps, in order to get to my target, i know i could use gates, and i know that the whole "i'll just jump everywhere fast" mantra has to be nerfed, but still, i'll need to get back aswell. and this will now take hours! (still) Mobility means alot with these kinds of ships.. and even more so, if you use them for pve(which i've done extensively)

2. I actually kinda liked the low range of JF's this ment that 0.0 mining and all the industry that followed, would be viable and needed again. And that those who eventually ventured out and jumped stuff to an outpost, could really make some big isk.
Another little note, is that the fatigue is kinda useless here, since you'll mostly do one jump a day max.
The only real nerf i see here, is for black frog, that does this daily and muliple times a day...

Otherwise everything look good. I look forward to the changes.(ALOT)


Black Ops fatigue is a value we're happy to tune, within a reasonable range. Make a case for a number and we'll listen :)

Yup, so did we, but we...
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#154 - 2014-10-09 19:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Etrei Kordisin wrote:
It's nice to know that CCP trusts the playerbase to not use the massive loophole that these changes open up, too. Nullsec players are absolutely above the idea of swapping to T1 industrials in order to utilise a starbase bridge network to jump halfway across eve in hardly any time.


I don't agree with the Subcap industrial ship change. I will say this.

Instead of doing them all, do one. Blockade Runners already have the capabilities of cloaking and using black ops bridges, so the deep space transport should have the ability of using jump bridge networks with less fatigue.

Yaay!!!!

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#155 - 2014-10-09 19:25:42 UTC
Etrei Kordisin wrote:
It's nice to know that CCP trusts the playerbase to not use the massive loophole that these changes open up, too. Nullsec players are absolutely above the idea of swapping to T1 industrials in order to utilise a starbase bridge network to jump halfway across eve in hardly any time.


It's not a question of trust, it's a question of a) it's not immediately obvious that this will be particularly viable in practice, and b) if it is, we'll just nerf it. The goals of this change are pretty clear, and we're keen to follow up and ensure that we hit them over time.
Gwailar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2014-10-09 19:25:46 UTC
Etrei Kordisin wrote:
It's nice to know that CCP trusts the playerbase to not use the massive loophole that these changes open up, too. Nullsec players are absolutely above the idea of swapping to T1 industrials in order to utilise a starbase bridge network to jump halfway across eve in hardly any time.


Yet another example of why fatigue needs to generate at a constant rate but be applied differently on a per ship basis.

See previous discussion late in original thread. This and other posts.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#157 - 2014-10-09 19:26:26 UTC
Elise Randolph wrote:


Did you like my joke?


Also have you considered increasing the ship maintenance bays of ships like Titans and SCs so that they fit more of a "logistical" role? I think if a titan could have a 20-50million m^3 ship maintenance bay it could start tweaking the role of the ship and make it more en vogue. It would allow an alliance to have a strategic asset in the Titan, have a subcap escort fleet to position the titan (or titans) deep into enemy space, and be able to base out of it instead of forcing every attacking foe to live in NPC null. So in this brave new world with 50million m^3 SMAs, an alliance that would have moved 250 carriers twice - jumping from NPC station to NPC station completely risk free - could instead move 10 Titans + an escort fleet of 200. Through gates. Loaded with billions of isk worth of ships. Think of how glorious that could be! Please I need this.



And don't forget to augment Titan clone vat bays too! Players in clones from these mega warships should get a +5 to all stats and a 50% damage increase.

Yeah Bayyybeee!!!!!

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2014-10-09 19:27:46 UTC
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Obunagawe
#159 - 2014-10-09 19:28:06 UTC
Since Titans and Supercarriers can now use gates it seems only fair to allow them to dock at stations.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#160 - 2014-10-09 19:29:12 UTC
Techno Model wrote:
Etrei Kordisin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Maybe these changes will accomplish something to break up the stagnation of null. With this watered down version it is hard to tell.


Pretty much.

I'm pretty disheartened to see the original idea "nerfed" in such a way. Logistics shouldn't be easy, the fact that no alliances in wars actually run out of ships goes to show very simply that logistics are far too easy.

Attrition should be a thing. Being reduced to flying smaller/weaker ships due to lack of supplies should be a thing.

Please, don't un-nerf bridges for anything, and don't give JFs 10LY. One of the things that made this awesome was the fact that moving things around would actually cause an element of risk; taking it back to 10LY eliminates that.


It will protect PL's renter empire while allowing "elite pvp" to continue dropping black ops onto drakes. PLoebe update is pretty much confirmed now.


True story, once a week a PL member is randomly chosen to jump into our vault full of ISK and swim around in our renter money just like Scrooge McDuck does.