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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-10-09 18:20:11 UTC
I don't really like the thought of Titan-bridged freighters working the same way after Phoebe as they do today. Transit logistics forms the industrial backbone of Nullsec Alliances and supercap production, and profoundly protects moongoo income streams (though the ability to defend quite so many moons is open to question).

Freighters, IMO, need to be left out of the equation to make this a meaningful nerf to coalition enablers. Supercaps look like they'll still be crazy powerful when all of this goes through, albeit easier to interdict along the way.

It seems like a terrible idea to keep giving modern Nullsec alliances the tools they need to import and export material in limitless quantity in the name of "smoothing out how terrible it is to do logistics." Logistics will never, ever, not be terrible. Players need their capacity to do bulk import and export of material reduced; it directly enables the larger coalitions to sustain nearly endless losses, which directly feeds into the n+1 gameplay that drives their formation. Please don't defang the Jump Drive Nerfs this badly, Greyscale! Keep Freighter Jump Fatigue high!
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#42 - 2014-10-09 18:21:21 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

[list]
  • Jump freighter max range will be bumped up to 10LY, and they will keep the 90% fatigue-distance reduction. This represents a slight range reduction compared to TQ, so some cynos will need to be repositioned, but otherwise leaves them largely alone. Note that, because ranges multiply together for fatigue purposes, one 10LY jump is *substantially* less fatiguing (multiply by 11) than two 5LY jumps (multiply by 36). Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90%


    • +1, i think it's a much safer less drastic choice at least for now.
    Yroc Jannseen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #43 - 2014-10-09 18:21:27 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Mr Omniblivion wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90%


    Is there a reason that Rorquals don't get the same 10LY range as JFs? Rorquals are used just as much for logistics as JFs, especially because their actual intended use isn't really...useful.


    We didn't think it was sensible to let it keep its drone bonus and have a 10LY range, and at the end of the day the bonus won out. The ship needs a large rework anyway, and we'll revisit all this when that happens :)


    If losing the drone bonus means getting a range bonus, I think most rorqual pilots would be happy with that. Nobody puts them in belts anyways.
    XavierVE
    No Corporation for Old Spacemen
    #44 - 2014-10-09 18:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: XavierVE
    It has been 1.5 years since I've been even relatively happy with an expansion or anything you guys have done.

    Nice, nice work on this! Great to see CCP being responsive to valid concerns from smaller entities regarding our jump freighter logistics. These tweaks to the original announcement could not be better. Phoebe is perfect now, just perfect. All hail Greyscale!
    TheMercenaryKing
    Collapsed Out
    Pandemic Legion
    #45 - 2014-10-09 18:21:34 UTC
    That's nice and all, but I would really like to see the rorqual get equal treatment to the JF until it is rebalanced. Right now it's roles is heavily limited, some people used them as cheaper jump freighters.
    IcyMidnight
    Nobody in Local
    Deepwater Hooligans
    #46 - 2014-10-09 18:21:46 UTC
    <3 <3 <3
    Mr Omniblivion
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #47 - 2014-10-09 18:21:49 UTC
    Evelgrivion wrote:
    I don't really like the thought of Titan-bridged freighters


    The problem is getting the titans to where you need them to bridge the freighters. Titans themselves still have the full jump fatigue, so they are still at full risk when doing a freighter chain.
    Milton Middleson
    Rifterlings
    #48 - 2014-10-09 18:22:17 UTC
    Quote:
    All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.


    This makes it extremely likely that you will see these ships used as bridge taxis in order to move people and material around as quickly as before. I think you should seriously reconsider this.
    Verskon Qaual
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #49 - 2014-10-09 18:22:33 UTC
    SOE public relations cycle complete.

    Makes null sec life bearable postpatch but still doesn't even attempt to fix the underlying problems with sov, coalitions, or null sec conflict.
    CCP Greyscale
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #50 - 2014-10-09 18:22:45 UTC
    Faren Shalni wrote:
    Can you reduce the training time on JDC as now it is no longer worth the 40 days needed to get it 5.

    Also is the max jump range still 5 ly as on sisi the titan range with JDC 4 is 7ly


    As I mentioned earlier, we'll be revisiting the skills once things settle down.

    SiSi doesn't have these numbers, I only submitted them just before I made this thread!
    Panther X
    Destructive Influence
    Northern Coalition.
    #51 - 2014-10-09 18:22:57 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Wrik Hoover wrote:
    ok

    cool



    Thank you for updating us and listening to the Blob Mob.

    A more reasoned approach to this you have given us. Hmmm?

    Cool

    My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...
    Kismeteer
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #52 - 2014-10-09 18:23:02 UTC
    In the past week, from October 2nd, rorquals have been involved in 10 kills on zkillboard.

    Obviously, the drone bonus is the reason everyone is flying these goddamn things.

    Seriously, does ANYONE there play eve?
    Veskrashen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #53 - 2014-10-09 18:23:25 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Also, to everyone who was wondering whether or not I listened, I read 4000 freaking posts by myself. Whether or not I agreed with the concerns was an open question, but I hope it was obvious from my posting that I was paying attention!

    *Some* of us are stronk enough neckbeards to do all 403 pages. And we don't even get paid for it! Shocked

    Solid changes, and while I would have preferred not to special-case JFs, I understand if was likely too much of a shock to nullsec logistics at this point. Good to see that you're looking at revisiting the issue as you continue to address nullsec industry.

    Question: Do the jump portal bonuses for covert cynos and the inustrial bonus for blockade runners stack? In other words, does bridging a Blockade Runner via a BLOPS BS generate 5% of the usual fatigue, rather than 10%? Might create some very interesting ninja logistics options.

    We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
    Chirality Tisteloin
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #54 - 2014-10-09 18:23:50 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    Also, to everyone who was wondering whether or not I listened, I read 4000 freaking posts by myself. Whether or not I agreed with the concerns was an open question, but I hope it was obvious from my posting that I was paying attention!


    It was realized and appreciated. I saw your "Mark for self" in the threadnaught and felt we were taken seriously (although you didn't like my logistic scaling P ). Thank you very much for these adjustments. Looking forward to how all this will unfold.

    See you at my blog: http://spindensity.wordpress.com/
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #55 - 2014-10-09 18:24:29 UTC
    dunno why you incur a fatigue on blops at all tbh, all it does is make you idle in your client for 30 mins afk cloaked in your targets' system while fatigue runs down. just a waste of time, it's not like you're vulnerable while you're cloaked there

    everything else seems gr8, im glad our logistics players wont be committing sudoku

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
    Basil Vulpine
    Blueprint Haus
    Blades of Grass
    #56 - 2014-10-09 18:24:57 UTC
    Can pods and shuttles get the fatigue reduction too?
    Veskrashen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #57 - 2014-10-09 18:26:09 UTC
    Yroc Jannseen wrote:
    If losing the drone bonus means getting a range bonus, I think most rorqual pilots would be happy with that. Nobody puts them in belts anyways.

    Folks might not be currently putting them in belts, but post-nerf they'd make great hotdroppers. 90% fatigue reduction, high EHP, 1k DPS and spider tank to boot.

    We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
    Steve Ronuken
    Fuzzwork Enterprises
    Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
    #58 - 2014-10-09 18:26:31 UTC
    Verskon Qaual wrote:
    SOE public relations cycle complete.

    Makes null sec life bearable postpatch but still doesn't even attempt to fix the underlying problems with sov, coalitions, or null sec conflict.



    You do know other changes are happening, right? This isn't the be all end all?

    Woo! CSM XI!

    Fuzzwork Enterprises

    Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
    Faren Shalni
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #59 - 2014-10-09 18:26:32 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Faren Shalni wrote:
    Can you reduce the training time on JDC as now it is no longer worth the 40 days needed to get it 5.

    Also is the max jump range still 5 ly as on sisi the titan range with JDC 4 is 7ly


    As I mentioned earlier, we'll be revisiting the skills once things settle down.

    SiSi doesn't have these numbers, I only submitted them just before I made this thread!


    ok thought as much just wanted to check


    I guess I wont be training JDC 5 anymore as its pointless in the current state these changes will do

    So Much Space
    Yroc Jannseen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2014-10-09 18:26:57 UTC
    Milton Middleson wrote:
    Quote:
    All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals.


    This makes it extremely likely that you will see these ships used as bridge taxis in order to move people and material around as quickly as before. I think you should seriously reconsider this.


    Not likely. Blockade runners are still pretty vulnerable to bubbles and cost near 200m now. If someone has a choice between taking jump bridges but potentially losing a 200m ship or taking an interceptor that costs a lot less and is bubble immune, they'll take the interceptor.