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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#8041 - 2014-10-09 16:15:59 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
I can understand why CCP has started to, for lack of a better term, "dumb down" their game.

Eve is probably the single most complex game made to date. People have built websites and blogs (other than the Wiki) to help with things like building a dickstar, or just simply setting up your tower the best way possible, or showing the research time needed for a BPO to get to a certain level, or living in a WH. Just in this thread I've even see that someone doesn't understand how a POCO gantry and the 32 assorted pieces to upgrade it can fit into an Iteron. This game is quite frankly something for folks that want to invest not just time, but brain power.

What I can't understand are the posts that welcome this change.

It's not the dumbing down they like (because it adds more stuff in terms of the fatigue timer)'

It's because they've been promised the promised land of deklein and can't wait to end our 0.0 dream.



Industry, specifically BPO research, has been dumbed down to make a perfectly research BPO easier to calculate, which in turn has dried up some of the "out of game resoruces" that I used quite frequently. The change came, and they shut down. This means content both in and out of game has been comprimized all for the sake of change.

Change simply for the sake of change is bad.



As for CCP ending the 0.0 dream you're spot on .... sadly this is going to include all regions on the outer edge of the map.

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#8042 - 2014-10-09 16:18:34 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:

Industry, specifically BPO research, has been dumbed down to make a perfectly research BPO easier to calculate, which in turn has dried up some of the "out of game resoruces" that I used quite frequently. The change came, and they shut down. This means content both in and out of game has been comprimized all for the sake of change.

Change simply for the sake of change is bad.

lmbo

were you the guy who had an me1975 drone bpo or something
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#8043 - 2014-10-09 16:21:20 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Amanda Orion wrote:
Gwailar wrote:


Have you ever parked an Iteron next to a POCO? Have you ever considered that it makes no sense that an object that large should fit so easily inside the cargo hold of the small ship next to it?


Have you ever wondered how a hot air balloon fits into a small trailer?

^^



You realize how ballons are a bit different from a structure that can take shots from dreadnoughts for quite some time before breaking? :P


How about a tent then.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#8044 - 2014-10-09 16:22:30 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:

Industry, specifically BPO research, has been dumbed down to make a perfectly research BPO easier to calculate, which in turn has dried up some of the "out of game resoruces" that I used quite frequently. The change came, and they shut down. This means content both in and out of game has been comprimized all for the sake of change.

Change simply for the sake of change is bad.

lmbo

were you the guy who had an me1975 drone bpo or something



I wish! Maybe if it were a T2 BPO ......

Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#8045 - 2014-10-09 16:37:44 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:


Eve is probably the single most complex game made to date. People have built websites and blogs (other than the Wiki) to help with things like building a dickstar, or just simply setting up your tower the best way possible, or showing the research time needed for a BPO to get to a certain level, or living in a WH. Just in this thread I've even see that someone doesn't understand how a POCO gantry and the 32 assorted pieces to upgrade it can fit into an Iteron. This game is quite frankly something for folks that want to invest not just time, but brain power.


It's been said before, but I think it bears repeating. Eve bears more resemblance to a long term hobby (like model railroading or rc airplane piloting) than it does to a game - at least in terms of investment in time and money to become actually good at it. In that reagrd, CCP taking control and trying to breathe some new life into Eve is a good thing, imo, even if it significantly impacts certain groups of players and the way they operate.

I've done nullsec logistics. I was the logistics director for a null sec sov holding alliance in a former incarnation. These changes are going to, to be blunt about it, suck balls on that front. The succesful nullsec player will adapt. Those who fail to adapt will be none to gently escorted from their space, either by those that do adapt, or by newcomers who are willing to find ways to solve these problems in new ways.

In my opinion, this is a good thing for the overall health of the game.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#8046 - 2014-10-09 16:58:17 UTC
Why are JF's only receiving a 50% reduction to fatigue on the test server???
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#8047 - 2014-10-09 17:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Veskrashen wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
You seem to be making some incorrect assumptions that i'm somehow unhappy with these changes while i'm simply pointing out the facts so that CCP can take it into account while hopefully making an informed decision without undesired consequences.

It's entirely possible that making it difficult to get things out to Cobalt Edge / Outer Passage from empire is not, in fact, an undesired consequence from CCP's standpoint. It's also entirely possible that since the 5LY max jump range was a conscious decision on the part of CCP specifically to limit interregional jump travel, that forcing folks to use regional gates with their capitals if they want to avoid long jump chains was entirely intentional.

Granted, you might not have been complaining about the changes from a personal perspective, and if that's the case then so be it. But there are a lot of folks in this thread who have been citing the difficulty of getting stuff from empire to the ass end of dronelands specifically because of the time impact to their massive solo industrial efforts out there.


Drone regions are special because there's a stationless gap in Great Wildlands that prevents near-station 5LY jump navigation completely. Such nerf to jump range will single out drone regions.. for better or worse. No other regions exhibit the same characteristic as far as I know. Even Stain/Paragon Soul are connected to empire through a chain of station jumps, making drone regions distinctly different from the rest of 0.0.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/58Z-IH:Odebeinn

Compare that to say

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/ZDYA-G:Odebeinn

You can see that there are stations along the navigation path.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8048 - 2014-10-09 17:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
mynnna wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Distance from origin is just the straight-line distance in light years. Origin is set when you make a jump with 0 fatigue and can be reset when you are back to 0 fatigue (it could also be available to reset after a period of time of several hours regardless of fatigue, which is also interesting). A and B are just constants to tweak for balance. A sets how far from your origin you can go before fatigue really starts ramping up quickly; that distance is 1/A light years. B is just a tuning knob, especially handy for tweaking the effect on short range travel. Individual ships could get bonuses to one or the other, as well. All the other mechanics about fatigue work identically. A = 0.05 and B = .3 generate interesting results, for sure.

The effect of this is that short range travel, such as within your own region, isn't punished as though it's exactly like long distance travel. It's important to note that that isn't the same as "not punished at all" but rather that it imposes interesting choice on that movement. The industry player might ask himself whether he wants to take a gate to the expensive factory next door (three minute round trip, for example) or the bridge to the factory in the next constellation, which is cheaper but has a six minute round trip. The pilot PvPing and defending his home from roamers might decide whether taking that third bridge in two hours is worth the ten minute wait, worth not being able to get back around in that time. As proposed by the blog, neither player can make more than a few jumps before effectively losing the ability for the entire play session. Heck, even the force seeking to cross a long distance in EVE can decide whether they want to get there faster or avoid obstacles but impair their mobility upon arrival, or take it slow but have more full mobility. And in an invasion, both the invaders and defenders would have the benefit of their cyno movement being local and so somewhat less restricted, allowing for a nice balance between the current paradigm where the target region plus three regions surrounding it are the battlefield, and the paradigm of this blog. where lack of mobility restricts the battlefield to just one or two systems.

It also nicely addresses some complaints of the thread. Blackops battleships don't get rendered completely ineffectual, because most of their movement takes place within a limited distance from a staging location. Jump Freighters would get hit far less hard, because half of their movement would be back towards their origin.

The fatigue mechanic in general has plenty of promise and is an elegant solution to what most acknowledge as a problem in EVE, but crushing nullsec quality of life in the process isn't necessary - the method above addresses that.



Example of a CSM member actually doing something. Very impressed.



Cool idea but not very intuitive to understand for someone not mathematically inclined. Seems like you'd need a way to predict what your fatigue is going to be / fatigue planner with this formula. Heck I'd need a spreadsheet to calculate it lol

I do like the idea of jumping back to your "base" not accumulating the fatigue or even reducing it but I think it could be done in more intuitive terms.

Maybe very directly so, ie, the system where you spent the most time within the past 24 or 48 hrs becomes your "fatigue origin" and fatigue is calculated as a fixed function of distance to base.

So two things.

"You get less fatigue if your destination is under (distance) from your origin. You get more faster if your destination is above that."

It's that easy. Nothing unintuitive about it.

The other thing is that it hardly matters, because the game will already show you your current fatigue and timer and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Basicslly, "the math is too complicated" is not a problem, and should never be, a reason to not go with a superior implementation. It's if the results of that math can't be explained using small words and/or those results are not clearly shown ingame that there is a problem.



I still like that someone is actually posting *maths* to save the rest of us from this barbaric OP change.

I mean if you go to the top of Lonetrek (low sec) and want to jump to Tribute... yeah you can do it after these changes, but there's something seriously messed up when you can only hit 40-50% of the systems in a single jump, while having Jump Cal V (especially compared to the current maxed out jump range for a carrier now).

I've given up trying to worry about this change, as we all know it's coming - hopefully smarter people than I could ever hope to be, can help actually get it watered down - because *words* don't seem to work at all. Get a scaled LY distance nerf instead of a universal cap (like a 9 LY/7 LY/6-5 LY thing), etc. 'cause I've just resolved to go ahead and join a larger entity to make sure I can still actually use Capitals in some manner or another.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#8049 - 2014-10-09 17:03:56 UTC
I do have hopes that with the potential for much more regular, smaller engagements, we see a new resurgence of things such as battleship fleets.

And as the occupants of certain space will need to get used to fighting in smaller numbers, I'm hoping we start seeing fights where ships become much more classy, better hulls and better fit to maximize potential. Maybe even blingy.
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#8050 - 2014-10-09 17:22:40 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
I do have hopes that with the potential for much more regular, smaller engagements, we see a new resurgence of things such as battleship fleets.

And as the occupants of certain space will need to get used to fighting in smaller numbers, I'm hoping we start seeing fights where ships become much more classy, better hulls and better fit to maximize potential. Maybe even blingy.

I doubt it, small scale is dead :/
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8051 - 2014-10-09 17:22:47 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Drone regions are special because there's a stationless gap in Great Wildlands that prevents near-station 5LY jump navigation completely. Such nerf to jump range will single out drone regions.. for better or worse. No other regions exhibit the same characteristic as far as I know. Even Stain/Paragon Soul are connected to empire through a chain of station jumps, making drone regions distinctly different from the rest of 0.0.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/58Z-IH:Odebeinn

Compare that to say

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/ZDYA-G:Odebeinn

You can see that there are stations along the navigation path.

Yup, I definitely can, and I totally agree that dronelands are a unique situation. I also maintain that there is no reason to make things easier for the vast majority of EVE to address this issue. Particularly since the drone regions have always been an oddball.

Also, I'm not sure that CCP should be catering to station-station 5LY jump chains, especially if their goal is to help push large scale logistics away from total safety and into areas that invite potential interdiction. That would drive conflict / content and increase risk - something that is sorely lacking in day to day deep null life at the moment.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#8052 - 2014-10-09 17:23:18 UTC
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:


Eve is probably the single most complex game made to date. People have built websites and blogs (other than the Wiki) to help with things like building a dickstar, or just simply setting up your tower the best way possible, or showing the research time needed for a BPO to get to a certain level, or living in a WH. Just in this thread I've even see that someone doesn't understand how a POCO gantry and the 32 assorted pieces to upgrade it can fit into an Iteron. This game is quite frankly something for folks that want to invest not just time, but brain power.


It's been said before, but I think it bears repeating. Eve bears more resemblance to a long term hobby (like model railroading or rc airplane piloting) than it does to a game - at least in terms of investment in time and money to become actually good at it. In that reagrd, CCP taking control and trying to breathe some new life into Eve is a good thing, imo, even if it significantly impacts certain groups of players and the way they operate.

I've done nullsec logistics. I was the logistics director for a null sec sov holding alliance in a former incarnation. These changes are going to, to be blunt about it, suck balls on that front. The succesful nullsec player will adapt. Those who fail to adapt will be none to gently escorted from their space, either by those that do adapt, or by newcomers who are willing to find ways to solve these problems in new ways.

In my opinion, this is a good thing for the overall health of the game.


No... It's a spreadsheet pretending to be a game.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#8053 - 2014-10-09 17:39:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Veskrashen wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Drone regions are special because there's a stationless gap in Great Wildlands that prevents near-station 5LY jump navigation completely. Such nerf to jump range will single out drone regions.. for better or worse. No other regions exhibit the same characteristic as far as I know. Even Stain/Paragon Soul are connected to empire through a chain of station jumps, making drone regions distinctly different from the rest of 0.0.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/58Z-IH:Odebeinn

Compare that to say

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/ZDYA-G:Odebeinn

You can see that there are stations along the navigation path.

Yup, I definitely can, and I totally agree that dronelands are a unique situation. I also maintain that there is no reason to make things easier for the vast majority of EVE to address this issue. Particularly since the drone regions have always been an oddball.

Also, I'm not sure that CCP should be catering to station-station 5LY jump chains, especially if their goal is to help push large scale logistics away from total safety and into areas that invite potential interdiction. That would drive conflict / content and increase risk - something that is sorely lacking in day to day deep null life at the moment.


Right, but just from symmetry considerations perhaps they should either separate Pure Blind/Tribute/Geminate/Cloud Ring from the empire by something like Ginnungagap (or close Gnnungagap/add some stations to Great Wildlands) to avoid a situation where in some regions it's super easy to do nullsec logistics and it others it's super difficult. Worst case for say Deklein or even Outer Ring is maybe 5 jumps through stations. That's drastically different in terms of logistics effort from 20 jumps and a path that requires 2 stationless jumps. I'm not saying all regions should be symmetrical in logistics either, just something to think about.

Having said that I do think it's kind of cool and different to have a few regions with super hard logistics. I probably wouldn't live there myself because of !/$ is too low. Not sure who would. Who do you think would live there? Industrialists? PVPers? Carebears? I'm just having a bit of a hard time envisioning someone living that far away from empire.

Incidentally, because of this, I think this change favors goons heavily and makes me wonder if it was pitched to CCP by someone pursuing personal agenda.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#8054 - 2014-10-09 17:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:

I for one applaud CCP for such aggressive out-of-the-box changes. The movement of massive fleets across the entire galaxy in moments has led to the blue donut we know and hate. This is more a throwback to the old days, when there wasn't an easy button to press that led to your cap fleet immediately smashing ontop of your enemies face. Nullsec Alliances might actually have to *shock* think about how to defend their space.

i copied and pasted this quote to jabber and called it "what_highsec_publlords_actually_believe.txt"

just thought you'd like to know


Always amuses me to see people making assumptions. My opinions come from the depths of wormhole space!

And not that i need to defend my position, but I was living in nullsec back before your character even existed. Significant lack of easy-mode buttons back in those days.

I've gone ahead and added your tears to my bucket. Cool

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#8055 - 2014-10-09 17:55:06 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
If you guys dont mind me asking, what are the advantages of using a rorqual over a jf for hauling?


unless you're only hauling ORE/ICE/Industrial ships?

none


o/
Celly Smunt


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8056 - 2014-10-09 18:00:12 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Right, but just from symmetry considerations perhaps they should either separate Pure Blind/Tribute/Geminate/Cloud Ring from the empire by something like Ginnungagap (or close Gnnungagap/add some stations to Great Wildlands) to avoid a situation where in some regions it's super easy to do nullsec logistics and it others it's super difficult. Worst case for say Deklein or even Outer Ring is maybe 5 jumps through stations. That's drastically different in terms of logistics effort from 20 jumps and a path that requires 2 stationless jumps. I'm not saying all regions should be symmetrical in logistics either, just something to think about.

Having said that I do think it's kind of cool and different to have a few regions with super hard logistics. I probably wouldn't live there myself because of !/$ is too low. Not sure who would. Who do you think would live there? Industrialists? PVPers? Carebears? I'm just having a bit of a hard time envisioning someone living that far away from empire.

Incidentally, because of this, I think this change favors goons heavily and makes me wonder if it was pitched to CCP by someone pursuing personal agenda.

First, CCP has never really shown any interest in making various areas of space equally livable. I'm also not much of a Gewn Illuminati theorist, and I doubt this is a Gewn Plot to hobble PL/N3 and BOT. Thus, I'd probably oppose any artificial gulf to make Gewn logistics arbitrarily more difficult just because of droneland topography.

Second, in my opinion any analysis of routes / logistical burdens that ignores the existence of and use of stargates by capitals - to include JFs - is fundamentally flawed. While it is entirely likely that folks who are solo JFing around will never ever in a bazillion years take their JF through a gate or on a route where they are exposed to any risk whatsoever, I do not believe that it is a good idea to balance around that as a valid use case. By all means, those folks should be able to plot an appropriate route around in perfect safety, and make whatever diplomatic arrangements necessary to secure that route so they can travel in safety. I just don't think that CCP should accomodate that as the standard, when they can cut 75% of the jumps out of their route by taking a single stargate.

It will be interesting to see how the occupants of various areas shifts as these and other changes come online. It used to be that drone regions were home to small alliances who understood they were accepting more logistical difficulties for the chance to be away from the bigger blocks. The same is kinda true today, where they're occupied by renters who aren't big block sov war participants. IMO the ease of JF logistics has overly homogenized space, and the nerfing of jump travel is shifting the landscape in ways that are uncomfortable for folks who never knew the "Good Old Days". There will be a period of adjustment and the folks in Outer Passage / Cobalt Edge at this time next year are probably going to be a hardier bunch than are there today.

That's a good thing, I think.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8057 - 2014-10-09 18:05:54 UTC
Greetings, citizens of longest-feedback-thread-of-all-time,

Please be finding a new thread with the first round of major adjustments to the plan here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=378426&find=unread

There will be a follow-up blog in the next few weeks as plans settle down and finalize themselves. In the meantime, please peruse the above thread and offer opinions.

Thanks,
-Greyscale
KayleInara
Perkone
Caldari State
#8058 - 2014-10-09 18:07:08 UTC
Dream Five wrote:

Incidentally, because of this, I think this change favors goons heavily and makes me wonder if it was pitched to CCP by someone pursuing personal agenda.


Wait, I'm confused now. Back in pages 350-399, the arguments were that this change was an awesome move by CCP, and that all the proposals to change it were goon plots to undermine this awesome change, especially that evil suggestion by the vile Mynna that was obviously just to create a loophole that goons could exploit (apparently it would only work for goons for some unknown reason).

Now on page 403'ish the original change that the goons were plotting to undermine was actually a devious plot pitched by goons to CCP in the first place?

I think this thread needs a lot more tinfoil.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#8059 - 2014-10-09 18:24:35 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


I still like that someone is actually posting *maths* to save the rest of us from this barbaric OP change.

I mean if you go to the top of Lonetrek (low sec) and want to jump to Tribute... yeah you can do it after these changes, but there's something seriously messed up when you can only hit 40-50% of the systems in a single jump, while having Jump Cal V (especially compared to the current maxed out jump range for a carrier now).

I've given up trying to worry about this change, as we all know it's coming - hopefully smarter people than I could ever hope to be, can help actually get it watered down - because *words* don't seem to work at all. Get a scaled LY distance nerf instead of a universal cap (like a 9 LY/7 LY/6-5 LY thing), etc. 'cause I've just resolved to go ahead and join a larger entity to make sure I can still actually use Capitals in some manner or another.


That bolded part is what some people don't understand. Things CCP do to try to 'encourage smaller groups' almost always end up in encouraging larger groups because anything a small group can do, a large group can do better.

So much about these changes threaten to have the exact opposite effect of what CCP intends, making null sec (and other non-null sec aspects of EVE) worse than it was before. Turning Capital ships into "Regional Defense Platforms" of limited mobility is a DEFENSIVE buff from hell for established groups, in the same way that letting capitals takes gates is horrible because it means capital ship escorts for move ops. What 'small group' is going to be able to break through capital remote reps (even if nerfed some kind of way) to threaten a convoy . That's another defensive buff in a world (New Eden) that needs OFFENSIVE buffs.

Problem is that too many people that people dissenting are trying to maintain a (crappy for all) status quo and are 'scared of change' when the reality is that some of us don't think that these changes are going to do anything but make something that's already bad into something that is even worse for everyone... just like Dominion did.

Like you I know that it's going to happen anyway, at this point all i can do is watch the forums for a few months and hope i don't catch an epic cramp what with my hand hovering over the big red "we tried to tell you" button that will eventually get pressed.
CCP Falcon
#8060 - 2014-10-09 18:27:46 UTC
Here's a thread with updated information based on community feedback!

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3