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Phoebe jump changes undermined by warp speed bonuses

Author
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#1 - 2014-10-09 10:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Someone made a great post on the Eve subreddit about why the jump changes will not have quite the expected effect of stopping rapid deployment of capitals. Unlike most complaints about this which focus on hypothetical things like caches and such, this one focuses on a much more tangible factor: warp speed bonuses from modules and implants. I suggest you read that post before mine.

Based on the devblog detailing the jump changes, they were balanced like this:

Quote:
We are going to allow capital ships to use gates in lowsec/nullsec, and we are aiming to make gate-to-gate travel take less time than jump travel over distances of more than ~20 LY. We've run simulations for capital ships travelling between arbitrary pairs of systems, and settled on the target movement speed of no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY. This should allow us to bring about the main change we want to see – less sustained use of jump travel – while still preserving its value for short bursts of movement.

I was curious whether this paragraph was written with warp speed mods and most importantly implants (Ascendancy) in mind. I'm now quite convinced that CCP has not considered warp speed mods and Ascendancy implants when balancing these changes, and here's why:


  • A distance of 20LY will take at least four Jump Drive jumps under the Phoebe system to travel. This means, that under the current numbers, it would take 2 hours and 47 minutes to jump (back-to-back, which is the fastest way of traversing it).
  • Some quick experimenting on Dotlan suggests that 20LY is roughly 20 gate jumps of travel, depending on the exact route of course.
  • Traveling 20 jumps in a capital with a 1.5AU/s warp speed and a 30-second align time will take about 30-60 minutes or so, depending a little on how long the warps between gates happen to be. In some regions with very long warps (coughvenalcough) it may take even longer than 60 minutes.
  • Thus, the breakpoint for when gate travel is faster with this logic is indeed roughly 20LY or four Jump Drive jumps, which concurs with the "gate-to-gate travel take less time than jump travel over distances of more than ~20 LY" and "no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY" portions of the paragraph above.
  • A three-jump route of 15LY would take about 32 minutes to do, which is about the same time as the same distance through gates would take


These points seem to confirm that the logic CCP used for balancing the numbers was indeed capitals warping at their base 1.5AU/s warp speed.

However, capitals don't always warp at 1.5AU/s, with some mods, rigs and implants they can easily warp 3-4 times as fast as that. Many people already use warp speed rigs, mods, and implants on their titans and supercaps. In fact, the price of Ascendancy implants has mostly been on a steady climb over the past 6 months, which probably means that people are buying more of them. Occam's razor time: are people buying the most expensive & gimmickest pirate implant set in the game to use on already fast subcapitals, or are they buying it for their (super)cap toons to make their capitals move faster than subcapitals?

Now, is this really an issue? I mean, what's the big deal if a 5.5-billion (or 0.6bn if you use the mid-grade ones, which "only" make your supercap warp 4.1AU/s as opposed to the 4.9AU/s of high-grades) pirate implant set lets capitals warp fast?

Answer: yes, it is a big goddamn issue. Let's estimate at what point gate travel becomes faster than jumping for the 4.89AU/s Hel with a 20-second align time (you can get a faster align time easily by fitting more istabs, peaking it out at about 15, but it doesn't make a big difference here).


  • Let's ballpark the average distance between gates to be 50AU, and the average distance in LY a gate jumps you at 1LY. These both vary quite a bit region to region, but that's fairly irrelevant for this estimation.
  • A 50AU warp takes roughly 30 seconds for this Hel to complete. Add to that the align time a bit shy of 20 seconds, and time spent in jump tunnels, and we'll have a travel speed of something like 50-60 seconds/jump. At 60 seconds/jump, conveniently get a roughly 1min/LY travel speed through gates, thrice as fast as the minimum speed CCP balanced this around.
  • With the previous assumptions, a Jump Drive would take two jumps to travel the same distance, and two jumps take about five minutes to do, having a travel speed of about 0.5min/LY. A third jump would take 32 minutes to do, giving it a travel speed of roughly 2min/LY, which means that for all but the shortest of distances gate travel with implants would be vastly faster than jump drive travel, and thus vastly faster than what seems to be intended.


The main culprit here is the Ascendancy implant set combined with a Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II rig, which together more than double your warp speed (heavens forbid you use multiple rigs). This is especially impactful on caps, because they are normally very slow, make expensive implants and mods (HG Ascendancies are 5.5bn, warp speed lows cost like 250m each) justified, and also can refit off of each other even mid-warp and will benefit from warp speed mods even if they're fit mid warp, which lets them avoid gimping their lowslots.

For a solution I suggest simply disabling the effect of Ascendancies on capitals. This alone will almost halve their gate travel speed. It will still be commonplace for anyone moving capitals to refit into warp speed lows, though, which is basically "free" 0.9AU/s warpspeed with no gimped fits, which is "only" a 60% increase in travel speed.

TL;DR: Ascendancies will be (even more than now) OP on caps after Phoebe, please nerf.
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#2 - 2014-10-09 10:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
The OP is out of characters, so bear with my double posting.

Some may (and will) argue that these changes are alright, because taking gates is inherently riskier than jumping. Which is true.

However, I feel that the spirit of these jump changes in Phoebe is to basically end whimsically moving large capital forces any significant distance completely by making it significantly more effort, and a practical impossibility in a realistic timeframe. The reasons for wanting to do this are obvious: big capital blobs are fun for no one and the servers can barely handle them, so it's better if they become exceedingly rare, and the best way of making them rare is to make them such a pain to deploy that no one will want to do it.

As the Reddit post demonstrates, even after the changes it's possible to travel a distance of 50 jumps in about half an hour. 50 jumps in half an hour is not a very long time, and while there are a lot of factors this ignores (Tidi and traffic control caused by large fleets jumping, bouncing when fleetwarping to gates, etc), it's still a low enough time that it's damn certain people will do it if it will be possible.

Considering there's nothing that can contest a sizeable supercap fleet short of another supercap fleet, moving them this way wouldn't be particularly risky either. Gatecamps can be smartbombed to get out of the bubbles, and thanks to the warp speed a fleet like that would travel similarly to a fleet of cruisers. We see people move fleets of cruisers long distances all the time, so it's not really even a question whether someone would actually move capitals like this or not.

EDIT: Also, I think this might be in the wrong section, so if one of you ISD fellows or someone could move it to the appropriate section (I guess F&I), that'd be great.
Zoltar Nosisk
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-10-09 11:41:34 UTC
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#4 - 2014-10-09 11:58:21 UTC
Zoltar Nosisk wrote:
http://www.agony-unleashed.com/wiki/images/e/e1/Pvpbasic-bubble2.jpg

Bubbles can be smartbombed, or in the case of anchored bubbles killed with guns or fighters. The exception to this are dictor bubbles right on top of the gate, but slowboating 5km out of the bubble will take even the slowest of supers less than a minute assuming they have an MWD.

In the case of drag/stop bubbles, having someone burn ahead to scout for them and then pinging the supers properly would avoid that. Warping to a ping isn't *that* big of a deal, since you warp so fast and the extra 15-20 secs spent aligning in the ping won't delay you that much.

Regardless, it is true that bubbles will delay taking gates somewhat, however that hardly changes the fact that gate travel at this pace seems completely unaccounted for judging by the dev blog, and needs to be looked at.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#5 - 2014-10-09 12:38:12 UTC
Ok, ok. You say that you can make a capital warp faster. But what do you sacrifice for that mobility?

Lets take the ever so popular Archon and look through all the components that allow its faster move speed.

Warp accelerators - yeah, you can refit those. You should refit those as soon as you approach your destination.

Ascendancy set - You get that to fly your carrier and you don't have your Slave set, which is a good portion of your buffer. Les so important for shield carriers, but who uses those anyway.

Warp speed rigs - again, you are sacrificing your tank for warp seed. And this time, there isn't an option to refit without spending a good amount of ISK every time you do that (good enough to fatigue even the richest if they do what you suggest).

On the topic of bubbles - OK, i didn't knew how those work precisely until a week ago. The thing you see on the screenshot is called a drag bubble. As long as a bubble intersects your warp trajectory and is on the grid your landing, it will suck you out form your expected landing spot. Leaving several drag bubbles like this one, means you'll have to burn 50-60 km to the gate. In a carrier. Or your opponent might be smart enough to catch your travel-fit fleet in transit and trash them.

What i see actually happening is capital ships being built up in strategical locations and cap pilots either jumping clones or flying in interceptors to them. Think of it - a carrier isn't all that expensive. Not in the eyes of large empires. Even supers are affordable.

The cited calculation uses a hypothetical "clean" situation with no obstructions of any sort and full dedication towards a certain goal... Yes, i guess you can drag race in a truck. And people do it. But is that ruck still able to perform its main purpose? I wouldn't worry about the potentials of freight trucks speeding on the highway, when their drivers can just take the plane all the way over the country and drive their second truck stationed over there.

Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#6 - 2014-10-09 13:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Vesan Terakol wrote:
Ok, ok. You say that you can make a capital warp faster. But what do you sacrifice for that mobility?

The primary focus here is supercaps (and titans), as they benefit the most from this. There's a few reasons for this:

  • They are already expensive, justifying expensive pods. They're also space coffins, so switching implants is not an issue.
  • Few implant sets are of any real use on them. I'd daresay Slaves and Ascendancies are the only viable sets (Crystals don't work, Snakes are almost useless on them, Talismans might as well not exist have an extremely niche use not applicable here). As the Reddit post points out, not having to make the choice between Slaves and Ascendancies puts shield supers at a slight advantage here.
  • They're among the loosest-to-fit ships in the game, already having fairly good base stats, which means that giving up a rig slot isn't that big of a deal.


Obviously, this would also work for carriers (lots of people have, since the announcement of these changes, been planning >6AU/s carriers), although whether you can get every carrier pilot in the fleet to fit properly for warp speed is another question, although for most of the current powerblocs likely not a question of budget.

With these points in mind, you're not really giving up all that much: one rigslot and a different set of implants are less valuable than the possibility of projecting power better and being in a system before your opponent. Keep in mind we're talking about a game where the outcome of large battles is often determined by who can get their full force on grid first, before the servers crap themselves.

Vesan Terakol wrote:
On the topic of bubbles - OK, i didn't knew how those work precisely until a week ago. The thing you see on the screenshot is called a drag bubble. [..] Or your opponent might be smart enough to catch your travel-fit fleet in transit and trash them.

About drag bubbles, as I said, just scout for them and use perches. Not too big a deal.
About "catching" a travel-fit supercap fleet, that's not how supers work. If your travel fit fleet gets "caught" (and the only thing that can catch it is an equal or a larger supercap force -- I'm sure we're all familiar with the apex force thing), you just refit to combat and duke it out.

The bottom line is, if it's possible to move (super)caps across vast distances reasonably quickly through gates like this, someone will inevitably do it sooner or later. I think leaving these warp speed bonuses as they are is a disaster waiting to happen, akin to the "Who the hell would have that many cyno alts anyway?" line of thinking someone definitely had to have when they designed the original jump drives.
TheMercenaryKing
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-10-09 13:17:34 UTC
I thought those warp speed low slots can only go on freighter?

Either way, CCP will change the exact details of the jump changes. If the implemented what they proposed exactly, people would break it intentionally so CCP would have to reiterate it again.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2014-10-09 13:19:43 UTC
[Moros, Monkfish]

Damage Control II
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
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True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Centum C-Type Energized Explosive Membrane

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
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Domination Warp Disruptor
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed Script
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I

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Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Dread Guristas Iron Charge XL
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Capital Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Capital Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster II
Capital Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster II

I'm going to have fun in baltec fleets.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2014-10-09 13:30:33 UTC
Just a question since I am not a cap ship pilot. How long would it take to make a 20ly jump with the system currently in place?

Just a thought, maybe it is not the overall time required to move a fleet 20ly that CCP wants to change, maybe it is how that fleet actually arrives at the destination that they want to change.
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#10 - 2014-10-09 13:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Donnachadh wrote:
Just a question since I am not a cap ship pilot. How long would it take to make a 20ly jump with the system currently in place?

Two jumps if you have JDC 5 in a supercarrier, or three in a titan. With cynos already in place, that's a minute or three.

Donnachadh wrote:
Just a thought, maybe it is not the overall time required to move a fleet 20ly that CCP wants to change, maybe it is how that fleet actually arrives at the destination that they want to change.

From the dev blog it seems that they want to change both of those things. They specify two things that tip me off about them not having properly considered the implications of high warp speed on supers:

  • Gate-to-gate travel should be faster at distances that would take four jump drive jumps or more (15-20LY).
  • Capital ships should move at least 0.333LY/min over extended distances. From the placement of their breakpoint at 15-20LY, we can determine that the actual target travel speed they seemed to consider is about 1LY/min.

Because warp speed bonused supers move significantly faster than 1LY/min (they go 2-3LY/min, or even faster if you totally gimp them), it's IMO not completely unreasonable to assume that ignoring this is an oversight.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2014-10-09 13:46:28 UTC
OP suggests using rigs to travel quickly... Sure, sir.
Warpspeed mods are limited to 3 a ship.
Suggesting ascendancy implants, will totally be done, amirite?
Mentioning the remaining warpspeed once those two got taken out of equation, capitals are **** slow again. Even 20j at 2.5AU/s with a double inertia setup will still take significant time.

Else, please show us the huge pile of cap pilots that refit rigs or uses hg ascendencies. Also admirable how you're trying to convince people that cynoing onto the grid is slower than entering via gate...
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#12 - 2014-10-09 14:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Lloyd Roses wrote:
OP suggests using rigs to travel quickly... Sure, sir.
Warpspeed mods are limited to 3 a ship.
Suggesting ascendancy implants, will totally be done, amirite?
Mentioning the remaining warpspeed once those two got taken out of equation, capitals are **** slow again. Even 20j at 2.5AU/s with a double inertia setup will still take significant time.

I suggest using one rig -- a tradeoff, but not a particularly harsh one as far as supercaps are concerned.

Warpspeed lowslots are limited to 3 per ship, yes, which gives you 0.9AU/s worth of warpspeed. I even mention this in the OP.

Ascendancy implants have already been done and will be done even more if the patch goes live without nerfing them. Capitals are not implant-dependant, although Slaves are good on armor caps. If not for Ascendancies or Slaves, what else would you use? Genos?

Lloyd Roses wrote:
Else, please show us the huge pile of cap pilots that refit rigs or uses hg ascendencies.


People will not constantly refit their rigs. They won't have to -- one rig is well enough, two if you must move at maximum velocity (but really, one is enough). Just look at the Baltec Moros linked earlier.

As for people who will use Ascendancies, well... 6AU/s carriers have been a hot topic lately, and the only way to get those is with Ascendancies. Again, what else would you use, especially on shield caps? (And before you post, no, shield caps are not inherently bad, and that's beside the point of this discussion anyway)

Lloyd Roses wrote:
Also admirable how you're trying to convince people that cynoing onto the grid is slower than entering via gate...

I've never claimed that -- what I have said is that past a certain distance gate travel becomes faster than jump travel (or rather, jump travel becomes slower than gate travel), and warp speed bonuses skew this fact. Obviously the smartest solution when moving to a fight would be to save your jumps to the end of the trip so you can cyno into the fight, but that is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-10-09 14:16:16 UTC
If you're using the caps for a raiding party, you shouldnt need the EHP you lose for the speed trade. Also, you'll probably outrun just about anything which presents a material threat.

However, that is STILL a gamble and more importantly a neat little tactical choice as if you get caught with your pants down by a non-travel fit cap fleet, you're going to pop like bubble wrap.


Bring it on I say Smile
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#14 - 2014-10-09 14:35:20 UTC
In the end, all this will do is change how capital power projection is applied, not reduce it's application.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#15 - 2014-10-09 14:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
afkalt wrote:
However, that is STILL a gamble and more importantly a neat little tactical choice as if you get caught with your pants down by a non-travel fit cap fleet, you're going to pop like bubble wrap.

This is true, and would be the driving factor in making this dangerous/unfeasible if CCPs long-term vision of fragmented nullsec was instantly fulfilled.

However, what worries me is that for now nullsec is still stagnant. As long as the two or three big blocs exist, with mechanics like this they can almost completely safely and reasonably quickly move their fleets inside of their borders, which would at least not help when it comes to reducing nullsec stagnation.

As an example of what I mean is, let's assume that Phoebe is live. There are some ruffians running about in Delve, and Papa Goon needs to yet again bring the hammer down from Deklein on the other side of the cluster to show them. Since this is Phoebe and they can no longer just cynochain there, they need to take some gates in their travelfit capitals which move faster than cruisers. They can do this without ever leaving friendly sov and staying well over an arms length away from anyone who could really threaten them.

The estimated time for completing this route: easily less than an hour even without implants (1 rig + 3 lows), about half an hour with implants. Can be further cut down by making some strategic jumps from one region gate to another. Not exactly the most exciting grunt experience out there, but it could still be considered a "home in time for dinner" type of op if you use implants, even if just mid-grade Ascendancies.

(Xgrr goonsX)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-10-09 14:54:12 UTC
Agreed, but if you're landing on properly fitted enemy caps, your numbers mean less than they once did. The trade remains in play, even retrofitting the mods as the clones are missing slaves.

Is it enough? Maybe not today. Certainly delays responses and if two groups start hitting different sides it's going to get wearying - plus this is just phase #1 of The Plan™ and probably the least drastic (which should be something to consider).

Eve has always been about the long game, I think this is ok...for now until the other parts are unveiled.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#17 - 2014-10-09 15:24:41 UTC
No, we don't need to start arbitrarily deciding which implants apply or no longer apply to capitals just because we don't like the creative mechanisms players have come up with for utilizing them. Anything larger than a cruiser already got nerfed with the adjusted warp speed mechanics (and not just the speed, but the acceleration and deceleration), so implants, Hyperspacial rigs and accelerators merely claw some of this back (and Hyperspacial rigs were recently stacking penalized).

Gate travel is not always going to be as direct as a jump, it's still going to use capacitor and all these scenarios assume ideal travel conditions, ie: no gate camps, never warping faster than the slowest ship in a fleet, etc. If you want to limit power projection through gate travel simply increase the capacitor cost (exponentially) for warp drive.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-10-09 15:27:02 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
ie: no gate camps


To be fair, the chances of a bigass slowcat fleet getting so much as a sniff of camp action, much less caught by one are slim to none.

Even the drunkest scout couldnt fail to spot a couple of hundred caps inbound Big smile
Burneddi
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#19 - 2014-10-09 15:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Burneddi
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
No, we don't need to start arbitrarily deciding which implants apply or no longer apply to capitals just because we don't like the creative mechanisms players have come up with for utilizing them.

It's no different from Crystals, really. It also doesn't matter whether it's creative or not (it really is not, though, it just happens to be more impactful after the jump changes when all capitals end up warping more), broken is broken.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anything larger than a cruiser already got nerfed with the adjusted warp speed mechanics (and not just the speed, but the acceleration and deceleration), so implants, Hyperspacial rigs and accelerators merely claw some of this back (and Hyperspacial rigs were recently stacking penalized).

The key here is that warp speed rigs are damn near worthless on anything that's not a capital, because other classes of ships depend too much on getting actually useful combat stats out of their rigs. The same goes for warp speed lows, the difference being that capitals can refit practically everywhere. The same goes for implants -- if you're going to spend lots of ISK on implants and fly a subcap there are much better things you can invest in, whereas for capitals (especially them shield capitals) there are very few implant sets that are in any manner useful in the first place.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Gate travel is not always going to be as direct as a jump, it's still going to use capacitor and all these scenarios assume ideal travel conditions, ie: no gate camps, never warping faster than the slowest ship in a fleet, etc. If you want to limit power projection through gate travel simply increase the capacitor cost (exponentially) for warp drive.

Supercaps can cap back up to jump cap in less than ten seconds, so the minuscule capacitor cost of warping is completely meaningless. As for increasing the capacitor cost of warping, I really shouldn't have to tell you why that's a horrible idea.

There are few gatecamps that can contest the fabled apex force. A gatecamp able to in any tangible manner delay capital forces of the size we currently have would no longer be just a gatecamp, but a capital blob of its own. Slow ships in fleet limiting warp speed is purely an organizational issue, and organizational issues have been time and time again proven by the Eve playerbase to be quite surmountable.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#20 - 2014-10-09 16:50:30 UTC
Burneddi wrote:

The key here is that warp speed rigs are damn near worthless on anything that's not a capital, because other classes of ships depend too much on getting actually useful combat stats out of their rigs. The same goes for warp speed lows, the difference being that capitals can refit practically everywhere. The same goes for implants -- if you're going to spend lots of ISK on implants and fly a subcap there are much better things you can invest in, whereas for capitals (especially them shield capitals) there are very few implant sets that are in any manner useful in the first place.


I would be amused to watch a capital fight, where one side has hyperspat rigs and ascendencies, while the other side has trimarks and slaves.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

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