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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#7801 - 2014-10-08 17:46:29 UTC
So i can now confirm these changes have been blown out of proportion
Currently they are live on SISI ( ranges have not yet been nerfed, JF's are under TODO lockdown for the moment )
Working to drastically increase fatigue but on a 2 hour+ timer i had a drive cooldown of 12 minutes, which is about how long it would take me to move a cyno or get up and take a bio break or grab another beer.

I actually think now having seen and tested these myself that these will be more than live-able for null and low sec everywhere and dont require any additional tweaks i can think of. And given that my tests are with a carrier and not a JF the 90% fatigue reduction will make jump freighters easy street

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7802 - 2014-10-08 17:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Christopher Mabata wrote:
So i can now confirm these changes have been blown out of proportion
Currently they are live on SISI ( ranges have not yet been nerfed, JF's are under TODO lockdown for the moment )
Working to drastically increase fatigue but on a 2 hour+ timer i had a drive cooldown of 12 minutes, which is about how long it would take me to move a cyno or get up and take a bio break or grab another beer.

I actually think now having seen and tested these myself that these will be more than live-able for null and low sec everywhere and dont require any additional tweaks i can think of. And given that my tests are with a carrier and not a JF the 90% fatigue reduction will make jump freighters easy street

Good to hear.

Thanks for testing null and low sec everywhere

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7803 - 2014-10-08 17:54:11 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Distance from origin is just the straight-line distance in light years. Origin is set when you make a jump with 0 fatigue and can be reset when you are back to 0 fatigue (it could also be available to reset after a period of time of several hours regardless of fatigue, which is also interesting). A and B are just constants to tweak for balance. A sets how far from your origin you can go before fatigue really starts ramping up quickly; that distance is 1/A light years. B is just a tuning knob, especially handy for tweaking the effect on short range travel. Individual ships could get bonuses to one or the other, as well. All the other mechanics about fatigue work identically. A = 0.05 and B = .3 generate interesting results, for sure.

The effect of this is that short range travel, such as within your own region, isn't punished as though it's exactly like long distance travel. It's important to note that that isn't the same as "not punished at all" but rather that it imposes interesting choice on that movement. The industry player might ask himself whether he wants to take a gate to the expensive factory next door (three minute round trip, for example) or the bridge to the factory in the next constellation, which is cheaper but has a six minute round trip. The pilot PvPing and defending his home from roamers might decide whether taking that third bridge in two hours is worth the ten minute wait, worth not being able to get back around in that time. As proposed by the blog, neither player can make more than a few jumps before effectively losing the ability for the entire play session. Heck, even the force seeking to cross a long distance in EVE can decide whether they want to get there faster or avoid obstacles but impair their mobility upon arrival, or take it slow but have more full mobility. And in an invasion, both the invaders and defenders would have the benefit of their cyno movement being local and so somewhat less restricted, allowing for a nice balance between the current paradigm where the target region plus three regions surrounding it are the battlefield, and the paradigm of this blog. where lack of mobility restricts the battlefield to just one or two systems.

It also nicely addresses some complaints of the thread. Blackops battleships don't get rendered completely ineffectual, because most of their movement takes place within a limited distance from a staging location. Jump Freighters would get hit far less hard, because half of their movement would be back towards their origin.

The fatigue mechanic in general has plenty of promise and is an elegant solution to what most acknowledge as a problem in EVE, but crushing nullsec quality of life in the process isn't necessary - the method above addresses that.



Example of a CSM member actually doing something. Very impressed.



Cool idea but not very intuitive to understand for someone not mathematically inclined. Seems like you'd need a way to predict what your fatigue is going to be / fatigue planner with this formula. Heck I'd need a spreadsheet to calculate it lol

I do like the idea of jumping back to your "base" not accumulating the fatigue or even reducing it but I think it could be done in more intuitive terms.

Maybe very directly so, ie, the system where you spent the most time within the past 24 or 48 hrs becomes your "fatigue origin" and fatigue is calculated as a fixed function of distance to base.

So two things.

"You get less fatigue if your destination is under (distance) from your origin. You get more faster if your destination is above that."

It's that easy. Nothing unintuitive about it.

The other thing is that it hardly matters, because the game will already show you your current fatigue and timer and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Basicslly, "the math is too complicated" is not a problem, and should never be, a reason to not go with a superior implementation. It's if the results of that math can't be explained using small words and/or those results are not clearly shown ingame that there is a problem.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Darkopus
Perkone
Caldari State
#7804 - 2014-10-08 18:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkopus
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Kiwinoob wrote:
Seems to be a lot of negativity about making it harder to teleport everything people want from Jita out into null.

It's true I haven't spent a long time in 0.0 but I'm pretty sure while I was there I saw an asteroid. If only we could get CCP to provide some sort of device for extracting minerals from those asteroids (perhaps some kind of modified rocket launcher). If they also gave us a way to metamorphosize (yes - it is a real word) minerals into other things then someone could con an indy player out into null to build a giant bucket for all the tears.

And no. The time you spent reading this is mine now and you cant have it back.


It's not just harder, it's 24x harder in the worst case. That's what we're pissed about - the cackling-insane level of the nerf, not that there is a nerf.


Eve is a harsh place. HTFU or GTFO. That's what you nullbears always saying to the rest of the community. Now take your medicine like men rather than crying g like pussies
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7805 - 2014-10-08 18:11:09 UTC
Yeah...

Buff highsec again, make them really feel at home there.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7806 - 2014-10-08 18:12:19 UTC
mynnna wrote:
and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Has that been mentioned anywhere? Just need to be sure is all...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gwailar
Doomheim
#7807 - 2014-10-08 18:17:33 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
mynnna wrote:
and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Has that been mentioned anywhere? Just need to be sure is all...


Yes. It has been. Post #1061.


CCP Greyscale wrote:

Two step wrote:

Has any concern been given to show players what their cooldown/fatigue would be *before* they jump? Perhaps a tooltip on the timer showing the max possible cooldown after a 5LY jump?

We intend to both tell you in the tooltip what your post-jump cooldown will be, and also hopefully in the context menu etc when you actually execute the jump. Because the cooldown is based on your pre-increase fatigue, it's not variable based on distance traveled. (I think this is true, I've been in this thread for three hours and my brain is hurting a little.)

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#7808 - 2014-10-08 18:18:38 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
mynnna wrote:
and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Has that been mentioned anywhere? Just need to be sure is all...



should be part of an in-game capital navigation tool, like an integrated jump planner thing. and yeah, I know we have one already, but it's terrible.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#7809 - 2014-10-08 18:28:57 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
So i can now confirm these changes have been blown out of proportion
Currently they are live on SISI ( ranges have not yet been nerfed, JF's are under TODO lockdown for the moment )
Working to drastically increase fatigue but on a 2 hour+ timer i had a drive cooldown of 12 minutes, which is about how long it would take me to move a cyno or get up and take a bio break or grab another beer.

I actually think now having seen and tested these myself that these will be more than live-able for null and low sec everywhere and dont require any additional tweaks i can think of. And given that my tests are with a carrier and not a JF the 90% fatigue reduction will make jump freighters easy street


The range reduction is a far bigger issue than the cooldown timer. If capitals were keeping their current jump ranges (and currently we have no reason to believe they will) this thread wouldn't have anywhere near this many pages.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#7810 - 2014-10-08 18:34:04 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
SanDooD wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Could someone point out the 'little guy' that is currently in deep null that these changes are going to bone over? Being part of a coalition automatically disqualifies an alliance of 'little guy' status by the way.

Anyone?


Corporation(s) renting space from you or us (Period Basis comes to mind in our case). They are screwed. What's gonna happen is we'll probably see demand for renter space closer to low sec. Those poor guys in "deep" null are SOL. They will become even more dependent on their landlords now.

At least that's what I think, I may be completely off target though.

Renters are part of a coalition currently.

What is the size of the smallest entity you are currently renting space to?
Is your coalition going to offer them at fuel cost jump freighter services after these changes go live, and their logistics pilot quits?

Retar Aveymone wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

They spend their time griefing new players in high sec because they can easily get there in a couple minutes and if anyone so much as breaks wind in their territory - they hop on the cyno train right back to it to curb stomp them out of existence with sheer numbers and firepower from all corners of the galaxy.

The new content will come with this change.

i, too, regret these changes that will deprive me of my already-trained highsec ganking alt and prevent the training of new highsec ganking alts

man you are pretty insightful marlona i never would have noticed that aspect of the change without your well-thought out explanations that are not at all the product of a deranged paranoid mind

Another intent of the changes. Time to turn them into Cyno/jump alts.

Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7811 - 2014-10-08 18:53:22 UTC
Sadly this change is made before CCP fix the gate travel and system change handling.

So now :

100 caps warping to a gate @ 0km : break invul : AWESOME BUMP
100 caps at gate range : jump : TiDi fest
100 caps breaking invul/cloack @10/15km from gate : massive BUMP again...


so question :
1 - capship gate jump range still 2500m ?
2- capship spawn point still 15km from gate ?
3- ETA on session change fixes ? Because "You've been cleared to jump within xxx seconds" and "traffic control" is not acceptable in a game relying on GATE to travel more than jumpdrive.

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7812 - 2014-10-08 18:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Pic'n dor wrote:
Sadly this change is made before CCP fix the gate travel and system change handling.

So now :

100 caps warping to a gate @ 0km : break invul : AWESOME BUMP
100 caps at gate range : jump : TiDi fest
100 caps breaking invul/cloack @10/15km from gate : massive BUMP again...


so question :
1 - capship gate jump range still 2500m ?
2- capship spawn point still 15km from gate ?
3- ETA on session change fixes ? Because "You've been cleared to jump within xxx seconds" and "traffic control" is not acceptable in a game relying on GATE to travel more than jumpdrive.

theyre working on it last i heard

E: also that jump wait isnt specific to gates it happens on jump drives and portals too when the load is heavy enough
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#7813 - 2014-10-08 18:56:29 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Distance from origin is just the straight-line distance in light years. Origin is set when you make a jump with 0 fatigue and can be reset when you are back to 0 fatigue (it could also be available to reset after a period of time of several hours regardless of fatigue, which is also interesting). A and B are just constants to tweak for balance. A sets how far from your origin you can go before fatigue really starts ramping up quickly; that distance is 1/A light years. B is just a tuning knob, especially handy for tweaking the effect on short range travel. Individual ships could get bonuses to one or the other, as well. All the other mechanics about fatigue work identically. A = 0.05 and B = .3 generate interesting results, for sure.

The effect of this is that short range travel, such as within your own region, isn't punished as though it's exactly like long distance travel. It's important to note that that isn't the same as "not punished at all" but rather that it imposes interesting choice on that movement. The industry player might ask himself whether he wants to take a gate to the expensive factory next door (three minute round trip, for example) or the bridge to the factory in the next constellation, which is cheaper but has a six minute round trip. The pilot PvPing and defending his home from roamers might decide whether taking that third bridge in two hours is worth the ten minute wait, worth not being able to get back around in that time. As proposed by the blog, neither player can make more than a few jumps before effectively losing the ability for the entire play session. Heck, even the force seeking to cross a long distance in EVE can decide whether they want to get there faster or avoid obstacles but impair their mobility upon arrival, or take it slow but have more full mobility. And in an invasion, both the invaders and defenders would have the benefit of their cyno movement being local and so somewhat less restricted, allowing for a nice balance between the current paradigm where the target region plus three regions surrounding it are the battlefield, and the paradigm of this blog. where lack of mobility restricts the battlefield to just one or two systems.

It also nicely addresses some complaints of the thread. Blackops battleships don't get rendered completely ineffectual, because most of their movement takes place within a limited distance from a staging location. Jump Freighters would get hit far less hard, because half of their movement would be back towards their origin.

The fatigue mechanic in general has plenty of promise and is an elegant solution to what most acknowledge as a problem in EVE, but crushing nullsec quality of life in the process isn't necessary - the method above addresses that.



Example of a CSM member actually doing something. Very impressed.



Cool idea but not very intuitive to understand for someone not mathematically inclined. Seems like you'd need a way to predict what your fatigue is going to be / fatigue planner with this formula. Heck I'd need a spreadsheet to calculate it lol

I do like the idea of jumping back to your "base" not accumulating the fatigue or even reducing it but I think it could be done in more intuitive terms.

Maybe very directly so, ie, the system where you spent the most time within the past 24 or 48 hrs becomes your "fatigue origin" and fatigue is calculated as a fixed function of distance to base.

So two things.

"You get less fatigue if your destination is under (distance) from your origin. You get more faster if your destination is above that."

It's that easy. Nothing unintuitive about it.

The other thing is that it hardly matters, because the game will already show you your current fatigue and timer and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Basicslly, "the math is too complicated" is not a problem, and should never be, a reason to not go with a superior implementation. It's if the results of that math can't be explained using small words and/or those results are not clearly shown ingame that there is a problem.



If you can achieve the same goal with a simpler formula that's a strictly better solution.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#7814 - 2014-10-08 19:03:12 UTC
xttz wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
So i can now confirm these changes have been blown out of proportion
Currently they are live on SISI ( ranges have not yet been nerfed, JF's are under TODO lockdown for the moment )
Working to drastically increase fatigue but on a 2 hour+ timer i had a drive cooldown of 12 minutes, which is about how long it would take me to move a cyno or get up and take a bio break or grab another beer.

I actually think now having seen and tested these myself that these will be more than live-able for null and low sec everywhere and dont require any additional tweaks i can think of. And given that my tests are with a carrier and not a JF the 90% fatigue reduction will make jump freighters easy street


The range reduction is a far bigger issue than the cooldown timer. If capitals were keeping their current jump ranges (and currently we have no reason to believe they will) this thread wouldn't have anywhere near this many pages.


They might have throttled back on this.

Current locks for Archon are 6.5 AU and I'm sure that's the result of map barriers. Rev test showed full range in Info but the map bubble was also 6.5 AU.

Align times on Archon were what you would expect from a Carrier but it didn't seem any worse than slow boating a Providence through gates. If we end up with this system, I'd say the cyno alt alt will get replaced with the web alt, no bubble, low sec will be the optimal transportation method.
Lil Bea
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7815 - 2014-10-08 19:04:19 UTC
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Distance from origin is just the straight-line distance in light years. Origin is set when you make a jump with 0 fatigue and can be reset when you are back to 0 fatigue (it could also be available to reset after a period of time of several hours regardless of fatigue, which is also interesting). A and B are just constants to tweak for balance. A sets how far from your origin you can go before fatigue really starts ramping up quickly; that distance is 1/A light years. B is just a tuning knob, especially handy for tweaking the effect on short range travel. Individual ships could get bonuses to one or the other, as well. All the other mechanics about fatigue work identically. A = 0.05 and B = .3 generate interesting results, for sure.

The effect of this is that short range travel, such as within your own region, isn't punished as though it's exactly like long distance travel. It's important to note that that isn't the same as "not punished at all" but rather that it imposes interesting choice on that movement. The industry player might ask himself whether he wants to take a gate to the expensive factory next door (three minute round trip, for example) or the bridge to the factory in the next constellation, which is cheaper but has a six minute round trip. The pilot PvPing and defending his home from roamers might decide whether taking that third bridge in two hours is worth the ten minute wait, worth not being able to get back around in that time. As proposed by the blog, neither player can make more than a few jumps before effectively losing the ability for the entire play session. Heck, even the force seeking to cross a long distance in EVE can decide whether they want to get there faster or avoid obstacles but impair their mobility upon arrival, or take it slow but have more full mobility. And in an invasion, both the invaders and defenders would have the benefit of their cyno movement being local and so somewhat less restricted, allowing for a nice balance between the current paradigm where the target region plus three regions surrounding it are the battlefield, and the paradigm of this blog. where lack of mobility restricts the battlefield to just one or two systems.

It also nicely addresses some complaints of the thread. Blackops battleships don't get rendered completely ineffectual, because most of their movement takes place within a limited distance from a staging location. Jump Freighters would get hit far less hard, because half of their movement would be back towards their origin.

The fatigue mechanic in general has plenty of promise and is an elegant solution to what most acknowledge as a problem in EVE, but crushing nullsec quality of life in the process isn't necessary - the method above addresses that.


This needs more likes. I tried to come up with something like this myself in a post I made earlier but this is plain better. Please support this.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#7816 - 2014-10-08 19:07:09 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Grookshank wrote:
As I wrote above, it will be a horror moving subcap fleets *in your own sov* around.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5070585#post5070585

CCP: You want us to live all in one system?


We want you to think about exactly which system you live in.


CCP Greyscale wrote:

MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
Tenguboi wrote:

2- You touch Capitals but you dont have the intestines to mess with the CFC jumpbridge network so you dont nerf CFC power Projection


Jump fatigue affects people taking bridges from what I understood.


Yup.

Note the difference between power projection via a Coalition jumpbridge network and moving a subcap fleet around your own sov.

I feel like taking your own alliance's bridges in a subcap should have reduced fatigue, but I'm out of time at the moment to coherently word why.
Kilab Gercias
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7817 - 2014-10-08 19:09:22 UTC
First Test on Sisi.

Titan Jump Bridge also the Titan gets the Timer for Bridging.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#7818 - 2014-10-08 19:10:31 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
I feel like taking your own alliance's bridges in a subcap should have reduced fatigue, but I'm out of time at the moment to coherently word why.

unfortunately that would be equivalent to just reducing jump bridge fatigue across the board as we coalesce into one alliance
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7819 - 2014-10-08 19:10:53 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Distance from origin is just the straight-line distance in light years. Origin is set when you make a jump with 0 fatigue and can be reset when you are back to 0 fatigue (it could also be available to reset after a period of time of several hours regardless of fatigue, which is also interesting). A and B are just constants to tweak for balance. A sets how far from your origin you can go before fatigue really starts ramping up quickly; that distance is 1/A light years. B is just a tuning knob, especially handy for tweaking the effect on short range travel. Individual ships could get bonuses to one or the other, as well. All the other mechanics about fatigue work identically. A = 0.05 and B = .3 generate interesting results, for sure.

The effect of this is that short range travel, such as within your own region, isn't punished as though it's exactly like long distance travel. It's important to note that that isn't the same as "not punished at all" but rather that it imposes interesting choice on that movement. The industry player might ask himself whether he wants to take a gate to the expensive factory next door (three minute round trip, for example) or the bridge to the factory in the next constellation, which is cheaper but has a six minute round trip. The pilot PvPing and defending his home from roamers might decide whether taking that third bridge in two hours is worth the ten minute wait, worth not being able to get back around in that time. As proposed by the blog, neither player can make more than a few jumps before effectively losing the ability for the entire play session. Heck, even the force seeking to cross a long distance in EVE can decide whether they want to get there faster or avoid obstacles but impair their mobility upon arrival, or take it slow but have more full mobility. And in an invasion, both the invaders and defenders would have the benefit of their cyno movement being local and so somewhat less restricted, allowing for a nice balance between the current paradigm where the target region plus three regions surrounding it are the battlefield, and the paradigm of this blog. where lack of mobility restricts the battlefield to just one or two systems.

It also nicely addresses some complaints of the thread. Blackops battleships don't get rendered completely ineffectual, because most of their movement takes place within a limited distance from a staging location. Jump Freighters would get hit far less hard, because half of their movement would be back towards their origin.

The fatigue mechanic in general has plenty of promise and is an elegant solution to what most acknowledge as a problem in EVE, but crushing nullsec quality of life in the process isn't necessary - the method above addresses that.



Example of a CSM member actually doing something. Very impressed.

No. It's an example of a CSM member trying to water down a much needed change so it has little to no effect on the current situation.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7820 - 2014-10-08 19:11:00 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Distance from origin is just the straight-line distance in light years. Origin is set when you make a jump with 0 fatigue and can be reset when you are back to 0 fatigue (it could also be available to reset after a period of time of several hours regardless of fatigue, which is also interesting). A and B are just constants to tweak for balance. A sets how far from your origin you can go before fatigue really starts ramping up quickly; that distance is 1/A light years. B is just a tuning knob, especially handy for tweaking the effect on short range travel. Individual ships could get bonuses to one or the other, as well. All the other mechanics about fatigue work identically. A = 0.05 and B = .3 generate interesting results, for sure.

The effect of this is that short range travel, such as within your own region, isn't punished as though it's exactly like long distance travel. It's important to note that that isn't the same as "not punished at all" but rather that it imposes interesting choice on that movement. The industry player might ask himself whether he wants to take a gate to the expensive factory next door (three minute round trip, for example) or the bridge to the factory in the next constellation, which is cheaper but has a six minute round trip. The pilot PvPing and defending his home from roamers might decide whether taking that third bridge in two hours is worth the ten minute wait, worth not being able to get back around in that time. As proposed by the blog, neither player can make more than a few jumps before effectively losing the ability for the entire play session. Heck, even the force seeking to cross a long distance in EVE can decide whether they want to get there faster or avoid obstacles but impair their mobility upon arrival, or take it slow but have more full mobility. And in an invasion, both the invaders and defenders would have the benefit of their cyno movement being local and so somewhat less restricted, allowing for a nice balance between the current paradigm where the target region plus three regions surrounding it are the battlefield, and the paradigm of this blog. where lack of mobility restricts the battlefield to just one or two systems.

It also nicely addresses some complaints of the thread. Blackops battleships don't get rendered completely ineffectual, because most of their movement takes place within a limited distance from a staging location. Jump Freighters would get hit far less hard, because half of their movement would be back towards their origin.

The fatigue mechanic in general has plenty of promise and is an elegant solution to what most acknowledge as a problem in EVE, but crushing nullsec quality of life in the process isn't necessary - the method above addresses that.



Example of a CSM member actually doing something. Very impressed.



Cool idea but not very intuitive to understand for someone not mathematically inclined. Seems like you'd need a way to predict what your fatigue is going to be / fatigue planner with this formula. Heck I'd need a spreadsheet to calculate it lol

I do like the idea of jumping back to your "base" not accumulating the fatigue or even reducing it but I think it could be done in more intuitive terms.

Maybe very directly so, ie, the system where you spent the most time within the past 24 or 48 hrs becomes your "fatigue origin" and fatigue is calculated as a fixed function of distance to base.

So two things.

"You get less fatigue if your destination is under (distance) from your origin. You get more faster if your destination is above that."

It's that easy. Nothing unintuitive about it.

The other thing is that it hardly matters, because the game will already show you your current fatigue and timer and frankly, a proper implementation of what CCP is proposing should at a minimum include contextual tooltips that tell you what your fatigue and timer will be after a given jump.

Basicslly, "the math is too complicated" is not a problem, and should never be, a reason to not go with a superior implementation. It's if the results of that math can't be explained using small words and/or those results are not clearly shown ingame that there is a problem.



If you can achieve the same goal with a simpler formula that's a strictly better solution.


Well if the goal is to eliminate the utility of being able to jump around your own space, they achieved it nicely. Blog title says long range, though. Blog text talks about distances above 20 LY. So, either CCP is being deceptive in their stated goals, or they goofed, and the effects are wider than intended. Stating that my formula is superior is necessarily assuming the latter.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal