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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Stranger Warkri
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7541 - 2014-10-07 21:23:09 UTC
So what is this gonna mean for lowsec exactly? same old stuff? or is it going to be more like the local powerhouses running their regions and not the fear of PL showing up to ruin your fun? what about back to back blackop drops, is that going to slowdown somewhat?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7542 - 2014-10-07 21:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Ocih wrote:
My apologies, once again I over estimated the mental capacity of Goons.

Tech moons means R32 and Tech 2 related moons. I was not making reference to Technetium moons that have been defunked of value for over a year and are all but worthless now.

The coveted moons of Null that draw Power Bloc's to them. They will remain in the hands of IS Boxing, lag inducing power bloc's because the rest of us have no desire to sit on them like mother hen, clucking on the forums all day.


technetium is an R32 and there is literally no use for a pile of moon minerals of any kind other than reacting into refined products that are used for t2 production

please stop pretending to know things about nullsec

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#7543 - 2014-10-07 21:25:59 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

AND why is there NO jump fatigue for wormholes as well ?!!!

.....
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#7544 - 2014-10-07 21:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Andy Landen wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
How is a carrier (or any other captial for that matter) supposed to survive traveling through gates in null sec?


Maybe by bringing some friends?

I'm pretty sure that's the whole idea behind a Massively Multi-player ORPG.

Mr Epeen Cool

So the only answer I hear to this question is "Bring friends" which realistically means enough players to assure a win at every gate. So let's look at that for a moment:

Friends don't make bubbles disappear and since there are no capital MWDs, bubbles are the single greatest threat to any capital that has been caught on a gate or caught anywhere for that matter. Interdictor bubbles cannot be destroyed! So if capitals have to use gates, then they need bubble immunity just like T3s or interdictors. Friends have MWD, fast speed, fast align, etc.

Friends don't have to travel with friends like capitals would have to when forced through gates. So a simple movement operation would turn into a massive alliance effort which hinges on winning at every gate at the risk of billions!

Solo travel through gates for subcaps with scouts is practical and acceptable risk in most cases, but it is suicide and billion ISK risk for capitals in most cases.

AND why is there NO jump fatigue for gates AND wormholes as well ?!!! See what subcaps think about that!

And yes, if Titans can take gates, they should also be able to dock!


It seems to me that you are worried about being friendless and jumping through a gate that has someone who actually has friends on the other side. Because if you solo jump through a gate and run into another solo guy It's not really an issue. It's not a problem with the game mechanics. It's a problem with you.

As an aside, DON'T FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE!!! That counts for caps as well. If you can't find a fleet as a cap pilot, then move to highsec and mine. Most of the tears in this thread are coming from people afraid they might get blown up. Stop telling high seccers to HTFU when you all can't mange to set even a small example.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#7545 - 2014-10-07 21:32:57 UTC
Andski wrote:
Ocih wrote:
My apologies, once again I over estimated the mental capacity of Goons.

Tech moons means R32 and Tech 2 related moons. I was not making reference to Technetium moons that have been defunked of value for over a year and are all but worthless now.

The coveted moons of Null that draw Power Bloc's to them. They will remain in the hands of IS Boxing, lag inducing power bloc's because the rest of us have no desire to sit on them like mother hen, clucking on the forums all day.


technetium is an R32 and there is literally no other use for a pile of moon minerals other than reacting into refined products that are used for t2 production

please stop pretending to know things about nullsec


I typed out a bunch of stuff, then deleted it.

You know what? You are right. I have no idea how Null works. it's beyond me. It's just too much information for me to absorb.

You and your 15 friends keep doing all that hard stuff, I will sit in High Sec until I get bored and buy end products from you. I really don't mind.

I CBA to fight with you, even on the forums anymore.

The game is that dreary and predictable.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7546 - 2014-10-07 21:42:57 UTC
Ocih wrote:

My apologies, once again I over estimated my mental capacity


Apology accepted.

Edit: You assume Andski has 15 friends. Hah!
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#7547 - 2014-10-07 21:45:23 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Laughable Xhosa Girl wrote:


rrrrr ruff ruff rufff rrrrrrrrrr ruff


True, it will be ruff for some folks in the short term but I have faith that players will adapt to the new paradigms.

m

Now I am confused in This post it seems you are following the thread to see if you can help find balance via the CSM.
Yet in the above quote you seem to be saying these changes are it, we all have to deal with it and adapt.

Which is it?
Is my play style (and that of hundreds of others) being completely removed or is there hope for the smaller groups in nul to survive without giving up PVP.
Because in its current form, these changes remove the ability of smaller groups to operate in nulsec without committing a lot more time to the mundane but necessary parts of the game.

Is it intended by CCP and the CSM that only mega corps and huge coalitions can operate in nulsec?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#7548 - 2014-10-07 21:46:25 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Andski wrote:
Ocih wrote:
My apologies, once again I over estimated the mental capacity of Goons.

Tech moons means R32 and Tech 2 related moons. I was not making reference to Technetium moons that have been defunked of value for over a year and are all but worthless now.

The coveted moons of Null that draw Power Bloc's to them. They will remain in the hands of IS Boxing, lag inducing power bloc's because the rest of us have no desire to sit on them like mother hen, clucking on the forums all day.


technetium is an R32 and there is literally no other use for a pile of moon minerals other than reacting into refined products that are used for t2 production

please stop pretending to know things about nullsec


I typed out a bunch of stuff, then deleted it.

You know what? You are right. I have no idea how Null works. it's beyond me. It's just too much information for me to absorb.

You and your 15 friends keep doing all that hard stuff, I will sit in High Sec until I get bored and buy end products from you. I really don't mind.

I CBA to fight with you, even on the forums anymore.

The game is that dreary and predictable.

that is what I like to see

the most ingratiating position of surrender possible
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#7549 - 2014-10-07 21:55:16 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

that is what I like to see

the most ingratiating position of surrender possible


It just occurred to me why CCP is making this change.

When you guys steamroll some useless hole in the middle of nowhere for the lulz, an Evac will be all but impossible.

Of course if they flip GSF like BoB it means a lot of stuff gets left in Dek too but that won't happen..
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#7550 - 2014-10-07 22:00:49 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

that is what I like to see

the most ingratiating position of surrender possible


It just occurred to me why CCP is making this change.

When you guys steamroll some useless hole in the middle of nowhere for the lulz, an Evac will be all but impossible.

Of course if they flip GSF like BoB it means a lot of stuff gets left in Dek too but that won't happen..

did you just imply that ccp would disband our alliance

lmbo
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7551 - 2014-10-07 22:04:15 UTC
Even with support, it is suicide for a cap to warp to a gate or to any known point in space besides a dockable station, where it can be bubbled, unless the support fleet can be assured to clear and hold the gate long enough for all dictor bubbles to disappear.

A giant win for subcaps and mega-alliances. A giant nerf for capital pilots and normal alliances or smaller. Is this an elaborate scheme to force capitals back to npc null, low sec and wormholes?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#7552 - 2014-10-07 22:07:27 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
How is a carrier (or any other captial for that matter) supposed to survive traveling through gates in null sec?


Maybe by bringing some friends?

I'm pretty sure that's the whole idea behind a Massively Multi-player ORPG.

Mr Epeen Cool

So the only answer I hear to this question is "Bring friends" which realistically means enough players to assure a win at every gate. So let's look at that for a moment:

Friends don't make bubbles disappear and since there are no capital MWDs, bubbles are the single greatest threat to any capital that has been caught on a gate or caught anywhere for that matter. Interdictor bubbles cannot be destroyed! So if capitals have to use gates, then they need bubble immunity just like T3s or interdictors. Friends have MWD, fast speed, fast align, etc.

Friends don't have to travel with friends like capitals would have to when forced through gates. So a simple movement operation would turn into a massive alliance effort which hinges on winning at every gate at the risk of billions!

Solo travel through gates for subcaps with scouts is practical and acceptable risk in most cases, but it is suicide and billion ISK risk for capitals in most cases.

AND why is there NO jump fatigue for gates AND wormholes as well ?!!! See what subcaps think about that!

And yes, if Titans can take gates, they should also be able to dock!


It seems to me that you are worried about being friendless and jumping through a gate that has someone who actually has friends on the other side. Because if you solo jump through a gate and run into another solo guy It's not really an issue. It's not a problem with the game mechanics. It's a problem with you.

As an aside, DON"T FLY WHAT YOU CAN"T AFFORD TO LOSE!!! That counts for caps as well. If you can't find a fleet as a cap pilot, then move to highsec and mine. Most of the tears in this thread are coming from people afraid they might get blown up. Stop telling high seccers to HTFU when you all can't mange to set even a small example.

Mr Epeen Cool

Have to love the over simplified thinking of the simple mind.
Although solo jumping capitals through gates would be simply giving any small gang a killmail. The same can be said for having friends with you.
You and 20 "friends" are traveling via gates in capitals, hopefully with a scout (or 3). Scout jumps and reports gate clear 1 neut in system NV outgate has bubbles so bounce to me. So your little party jump and align to the scout, as the FC hits fleet warp there is a large spike in local (the neut has friends too, many more than you do), a crow lands on your scout, closely followed by a dictor, it is all over in minutes.

Moral here is - Not only will you need to travel with "friends", you will be forced to travel in massive fleets or risk being whelped at the hands of the already dominant large groups who run nulsec.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#7553 - 2014-10-07 22:08:46 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

that is what I like to see

the most ingratiating position of surrender possible


It just occurred to me why CCP is making this change.

When you guys steamroll some useless hole in the middle of nowhere for the lulz, an Evac will be all but impossible.

Of course if they flip GSF like BoB it means a lot of stuff gets left in Dek too but that won't happen..

did you just imply that ccp would disband our alliance

lmbo


You should really be worried about what will actually happen when this goes live.

Nothing changes.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#7554 - 2014-10-07 22:20:15 UTC
So when can we expect an updated dev blog?

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#7555 - 2014-10-07 22:27:23 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

that is what I like to see

the most ingratiating position of surrender possible


It just occurred to me why CCP is making this change.

When you guys steamroll some useless hole in the middle of nowhere for the lulz, an Evac will be all but impossible.

Of course if they flip GSF like BoB it means a lot of stuff gets left in Dek too but that won't happen..

did you just imply that ccp would disband our alliance

lmbo


You should really be worried about what will actually happen when this goes live.

Nothing changes.


please tell us what will happen o master of moongoo
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#7556 - 2014-10-07 22:28:09 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
]
did you just imply that ccp would disband our alliance

lmbo

I'm not sure why but for some reason Goons refer to themselves as an "alliance", they are not and have not been an "alliance" for a long time.
Goonswarm - Right or wrong - IS the CFC, without the CFC and other dominating coalitions, nulsec would be a very different place.

Goons are not to blame for the stagnation in nulsec alone, they simply responded to game mechanics and blued everyone they thought worthy to defend from other coalitions who did the same.

CCP don't need to disband GSF (that would be the worst outcome)
CCP need to find a way to make giant coalitions disappear.


Many alliances would gladly go to it and attack Goons if not for the fact - You challenge Goons you are challenging half of nulsec.

These changes are only going to make the giant coalitions stronger and give them an even more stable hold on nulsec.

Nerfing capital force projection is not going to "fix" nulsec.
Fixing/changing game mechanics so coalitions become obsolete will bring nulsec to life.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Shaax MacGruber
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7557 - 2014-10-07 22:29:30 UTC
Mother of God, this thread is still a thing?

Imagine this is an insightful comment.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7558 - 2014-10-07 22:35:37 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Ocih wrote:
I really do feel bad for you all, getting kicked in the face by CCP once again for doing what the rest of us were too lazy to do, too busy to do, too anything to do. Make that steaming pile of horse pucky work.


As mentioned several times throughout the thread, this change is actually giving us a "buff" in Deklein. Our space won't really change, it may even expand or simply take a new shape (ditching the furthest expanses of our space). The ability for capitals to take gates is laughable, meaning that we can form a defense fleet anywhere in our space to meet opposing hostile forces.

We understand the intent of this change- to nerf power projection - but the implementation of it as currently described is awful.

No one really cares about Deklein tbh. Keep it. It's your other regions spanning 95 LY and full of pos's, renters, and moons that might see some fun come the patch.

I'm sure the coalitions will just let you waltz in and take their primary income source. Go for it - it'll be totes easy and you're guaranteed to succeed.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7559 - 2014-10-07 22:43:38 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Gwailar wrote:
I suspect CCP doesn't really and has never intended to nerf logi so hard. What they really want to nerf is force projection. By announcing it in the way they have, they can ease off on logi and walk away appearing sensitive to player concerns while getting the nerf to the ground on caps that they want.

Logistics is the backbone of force projection.

It is.

Is the objective to mitigate the ability to seed a staging system with a thousand battleships overnight? Yes. That certainly ties in well with the overall force projection nerf of the changes.

Is the objective to make it harder and more expensive for a small group in deep null to get a few cheap cruisers imported? Probably not. The objective here is to increase small scale pvp. We want them to have easy and cheap access to stuff to welp. The changes are very counter-productive here.

Is the objective to make life hell for people who hold a large number of towers? Maybe. But those that do will find ways to deal with it and those who don't may have less incentive to deal with the headache.


How do we stop mass importing of a combat fleet without hurting industry or "the little guy"? What if we give the Jump Freighter the Iteron treatment? Instead of reducing the maximum jump range, reduce the base cargo hold on it. Then give it a second bay that can hold industry related items or even modules, just not ship hulls, to keep overall capacity the same. Increase total trips instead of midpoints. Note this will cause more fuel use and Fatigue. It would also allow painfully slow seeding of subcap fleets at larger ranges with increased safety, which is a downside. T2/T3 cruisers can already be seeded similarly with blops, so it only really adds limited battleship capacity.

Rushed bulk hull importing would be better done by bridging freighters in such a case, conserving Carrier pilot fatigue. Which would require Titan midpoints and staging towers. Securing supply lines, creating potential opportunities. At least a lot more than a cyno alt on station.

The alternative answer for the little guy is to recruit industrialists and build their own stuff as they go. But this would further tie in with the above suggestion, requiring them to import and export mostly things that go in the secondary bay. The force projection crowd wants a fitted ship there, now, in the hundreds.


Agreed. If you give JF 100% immunity to effects of fatigue and range nerf and ban it from carrying ships in any form, then it can't be used for power projection or combat taxis.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7560 - 2014-10-07 22:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nazri al Mahdi
Funz Orlenard wrote:
This change will give a huge advantage to people having multiple characters. They will just jump to a system, switch character (which they needed to have there anyways), and jump further.
I know that's what I'm gonna do. It will even let me relay back and forth on the same cyno pair since the logi chain is so long, the fatigue will be gone by the time I return to each point.

Not too many people are like me and will be able to pull this off at the very edge of the map though.