These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
t'raq mardon
Laminated Metals
#7081 - 2014-10-06 04:58:33 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
t'raq mardon wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
C'Nedra Rain wrote:

...


You do oen jump, then take one gate which shortcuts by 12LY and you die horribly on the other side to a gate camp!!Shocked


fixed


if you are dumb enough to do that...yeah :) Natural selection, Eve ftw


yes because no one would ever die to a gate camp

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Bl1SkR1N
W Sherman Elric
Argentum Holdings
#7082 - 2014-10-06 05:03:10 UTC
there has to be a map adjustment to go along with this. also just my opinion but blops should be excluded from jump fatigue might as well keep the hot drop alive and well :)
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#7083 - 2014-10-06 05:03:22 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:

Why so complicated? With 1 capital alt (besides a main with capital skills) and maxed jump clone skills (informorph V, advanced infomorph V) on both characters you can cover 20 staging systems all over the map (assuming 1 clone per character with special implants you don't want to use in PvP ). It shouldn't be a problem to have enough ships stored at strategic places (it might help to be a member of one of the big alliances, of course). Add to this infomorph sync V (which was introduced by CCP not so long ago) and you'll realize that force projection is still possible (at least for the big players) without the need to repurpose your collection of alts.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#7084 - 2014-10-06 05:07:00 UTC
Rowells wrote:

Currently 4 hours? Try 10 minutes. And even slow-boating there it will only take about an hour or two. Same goes for the enemy. They won't just suddenly show up from halfway across the cluster with every super cap and capital in tow. And that's what makes some systems even closer to each other now. Assuming the goon plan of caching ships doesn't work out there is still a network that can reasonably follow up against escalation. If you can't handle it call your neighbors. If they can't they'll call their neighbors. It will keep going until either one side declares a win or other forces come into play elsewhere. Our allies down in vale (or renters) may call on us if they get overwhelmed and we have options on how to assist, instead of just showing up at a single focal point. The thing this patch will do most is increase importance of terrain strategically.

And branch just went from isolated to isolated. Only thing we really have to be concerned about on a regular basis is wormholes and ceptor gangs.

Yeah my bad.. The reference was meant to be Delve - Not Deklein. (3hrs 20 mins to form up, 45 mins travel time)

The goon plan for caching capitals is a great idea - as long as they are paying for them and don't expect allied alliances to do the same.. I don't have isk to throw at spare capital ships I may or may not get to use.



My dreads are already on contract, JF will soon be on the market. I'll keep a couple of carriers for ratting and certainly won't be buying multiple carriers to have spread around nul, just in case.

The new Nulsec - A game of home defense. Choose it carefully, you are likely to be there a long time.

NB; before you start thinking about how safe sov in Branch is, you might want to think about upcoming changes to how sov will be gained and lost. Soooo many empty systems with nothing other than the odd neut gang traveling through, won't bode well for you if sov becomes occupancy based; will it?



My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7085 - 2014-10-06 05:18:07 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Yeah my bad.. The reference was meant to be Delve - Not Deklein. (3hrs 20 mins to form up, 45 mins travel time)

The goon plan for caching capitals is a great idea - as long as they are paying for them and don't expect allied alliances to do the same.. I don't have isk to throw at spare capital ships I may or may not get to use.



My dreads are already on contract, JF will soon be on the market. I'll keep a couple of carriers for ratting and certainly won't be buying multiple carriers to have spread around nul, just in case.

The new Nulsec - A game of home defense. Choose it carefully, you are likely to be there a long time.

NB; before you start thinking about how safe sov in Branch is, you might want to think about upcoming changes to how sov will be gained and lost. Soooo many empty systems with nothing other than the odd neut gang traveling through, won't bode well for you if sov becomes occupancy based; will it?

We probably won't ever see any assistance from alliances down in delve, I'll give you that.

I agree, regardless if I wanted to or not, I couldn't even afford or manage that many caps personally. You won't me in the south unless the fights been in 10% tidi for two days. Or a lucky wormhole.

My view on the new nullsec, If someone is defending there must be an offender.

Now I can't speak for any changes or how they affect us, but With the numbers we and our neighbors in tenal have, I doubt any new reds will be settling in permanently. But that doesnt mean we'll actually own the systems ourselves, mind you. That being said those regional gates in tenal and venal (why did they name them so close?) might bring some 'content' our way.
t'raq mardon
Laminated Metals
#7086 - 2014-10-06 05:21:28 UTC  |  Edited by: t'raq mardon
Rowells wrote:
C'Nedra Rain wrote:
...

I understand your concern about logistics, but all assumptions made after that are based off current mechanics.

Here are some things that are now possible and reasonble to do with logistics not being a once-a-day couple of hours a week and still able to feed a massive alliance thing:
- ability to interdict any groups logistics and actually have an effect on supply, Which leads to ->
- manufacturing in null (especially deep null) is now even more imperative since jita price isn't the main driving factor
- wars will have possibility to be smaller and possibly more frequent (less interference from massive fleets). obviously not day 1 after patch, but farther down the line
- encouragement for local production and procurement
- things produced locally will not need to be hauled from highsec (less logistical load)
- anything not made locally will have very high demand and much lower supply meaning anyone who decides hauling is still worth the risk is going to make some extra bucks
- trade hubs are already established in null. Sure theyre not as big as jita but they are still there
- things from null being more expensive? good. actually add some value to those items rather than who got the lowest 0.1isk in jita
- cutting the bloodlines of eve will make it more diverse rather than every null region and highsec being almost identical
- more community gameplay in deep null since there are actual scarcities and threats other than blobs of capitals dropping on you (still technically there but much less so)

All these things that are seen as 'essential' is most of whats causing those at the top of the dogpile to stay there and kick anyone else who tries to climb up. I'll say it again: these changes wont happen overnight. It will take time after the patch and many other needed patches as well. This isnt the final step, but it sure is an important one when you consider the changes coming down the road. Overcoming these new challenges will become as much a part of the game as anything else, and we'll be back here on the forums a year or so from now when someone asks to be rid of fatigue and cooldown to HTFU because thats part of the challenge.

It will definitely hurt at first as we learn to adapt and change our ways, but like the devs say, we tend to outsmart them and we'll figure out many ways to work the system to our own advantage. Contrary to popular belief this isnt a game killer. If anything this change will bring about the most emergent gameplay we've seen in a long time.


Slowing down logistics doesn't make more conflict and player interaction. It makes it so the only players that can afford to have conflict are the ones that are part of massive and well organized alliances. alliances capable of setting up ops to move their jump freighters back and forth from high often enough to provide the enormous number of industrialists among their ranks with the materials necessary to build things. with these changes it ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE for a small group to even accomplish the tasks necessary to survive in null sec more than ~5AU from a high sec system, and any medium sized group will be easily steamrolled by alliances big enough to move their capitals via gates with support fleets.

This move doesn't create more game play, it funnels power to the large alliances and makes them drastically harder to unseat. Imagine trying to go to war with a large alliance once you are incapable of even getting your caps in place to die gloriously to their titan blobs. Holding space already REQUIRES cap fleets, now it's going to require you to move them there through hostile territory either by gate or over several days (ever try to get a bunch of players to all be online at the same time?), or hold the territory long enough to build a fleet in place. Both of which would require a sizable group of people to even remotely have a chance.
t'raq mardon
Laminated Metals
#7087 - 2014-10-06 05:29:29 UTC
Myriad Blaze wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:

Why so complicated? With 1 capital alt (besides a main with capital skills) and maxed jump clone skills (informorph V, advanced infomorph V) on both characters you can cover 20 staging systems all over the map (assuming 1 clone per character with special implants you don't want to use in PvP ). It shouldn't be a problem to have enough ships stored at strategic places (it might help to be a member of one of the big alliances, of course). Add to this infomorph sync V (which was introduced by CCP not so long ago) and you'll realize that force projection is still possible (at least for the big players) without the need to repurpose your collection of alts.


Exactly. Big alliances will barely notice the difference besides being even harder to attack and it taking even less time to steamroll smaller guys.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7088 - 2014-10-06 05:31:02 UTC
t'raq mardon wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
t'raq mardon wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
C'Nedra Rain wrote:

...


You do oen jump, then take one gate which shortcuts by 12LY and you die horribly on the other side to a gate camp!!Shocked


fixed


if you are dumb enough to do that...yeah :) Natural selection, Eve ftw


yes because no one would ever die to a gate camp

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Bl1SkR1N


Do you know the concept of scouts?

Do you also realize that this will create plenty of fights when people break up such gate camps to get their freighters through or just to break up those camps?

Do you realize that suddenly EvE gets back to necessary player interaction in null and not alts online?

All concepts alien to those who do not want to defend the space they are using who do not want to interact with others who do not join ops or CTA. In short all concepts alien to the true null bears.

This is why plenty of renters are crying and plenty of bitter vets are excited about this.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7089 - 2014-10-06 05:32:50 UTC
I guess all that "gate is red" "gate is green" training when I was a newbie is about to pay off.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7090 - 2014-10-06 05:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
If I read that right, we are looking at wait times of 6 min, 5 min, 25 min and 2 hours with maximum segments of 5 ly forcing capitals through gates and through space which may not contain a blue station. Are we trying to kill every capital ship that wants to move any significant distance? If a player leaves their corp unexpectedly, not only do they have to face the prospect of leaving a station without redocking rights, but they have to weigh travel through hostile systems without dockable stations or jumping through bubbled and camped stargates without MWD and slow boating through systems with extreme align times and even longer movement times when warping to dscan ranges off gates to scan for bubbles. It seems that someone really hates sov null.

Capital players become completely at the mercy of their corp and alliance with this plan because getting kicked virtually assures the loss of their capital ships. I personally cannot afford to allow my capitals to move very far from npc null station systems or low sec station systems with these mechanics in place.

Every capital km chaser in Eve will be delighted for these changes. The only safe way to travel far into sov null with jump capable ships will either be in Black Ops (thanks to cloaking and the lack of cov cynos appearing on the overview), or in very large capital fleets.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Amon Schi
Please Stay Alive
#7091 - 2014-10-06 05:49:58 UTC
The best of this changes is to reduce my paid accounts to 1 because i don't need my logistic-carrier anymore and all the cyno-alts are going to rip too...
Thank you CCP for safing my money

Podcast by Amon Schi
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7092 - 2014-10-06 05:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Andy Landen wrote:
It seems that someone really hates sov null.

Capital players become completely at the mercy of their corp and alliance with this plan because getting kicked virtually assures the loss of their capital ships. I personally cannot afford to allow my capitals to move very far from npc null station systems or low sec station systems with these mechanics in place.

Oh dear, I'm at the mittani's mercy now

Andy Landen wrote:
Every capital km chaser in Eve will be delighted for these changes.

Oh dear, now Elo Knight is going to end us

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#7093 - 2014-10-06 05:52:37 UTC
Amon Schi wrote:
The best of this changes is to reduce my paid accounts to 1 because i don't need my logistic-carrier anymore and all the cyno-alts are going to rip too...
Thank you CCP for safing my money


This next patch just can't get here any quicker. Its going to be great.
t'raq mardon
Laminated Metals
#7094 - 2014-10-06 05:53:38 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
t'raq mardon wrote:
[quote=Bl1SkR1N].......


Do you know the concept of scouts?

Do you also realize that this will create plenty of fights when people break up such gate camps to get their freighters through or just to break up those camps?

Do you realize that suddenly EvE gets back to necessary player interaction in null and not alts online?

All concepts alien to those who do not want to defend the space they are using who do not want to interact with others who do not join ops or CTA. In short all concepts alien to the true null bears.

This is why plenty of renters are crying and plenty of bitter vets are excited about this.



with a 40+ second align time a scout can really only do so much, especially when any choke point system that cuts that much travel off of a logy chain is going to be camped 23/7. thats the whole point, big alliances will be able to break a camp, small alliances won't

player interaction won't be necessary, it will be moot. unless you have the resources to build massive cap fleets in place or move them via gates with support you won't be able to hold space. There won't be any small gangs because they will get blapped by locals in capitals who will be confident that they won't loose their ships.

by bitter vets you must mean players who are part of alliances large enough to build cap fleets all over the map and have them in reserve for when they eventually have someone to fight. This change is going to take things right back to the days of BoB, untouchable super alliances that only die when they cascade from within
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7095 - 2014-10-06 05:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Before we get started lets make it clear that my assumptions are based on the fact that your alliance is at least 1/3 the size of your opponent. So this means no 200 man alliances ROFLstomping their way through Deklein. We gotta be at least somewhat realistic. Understand that their will always be groups that are way out of your league (I have no illusions my alliance will suddenly turn on goons and emerge victorious.)
t'raq mardon wrote:
Slowing down logistics doesn't make more conflict and player interaction. It makes it so the only players that can afford to have conflict are the ones that are part of massive and well organized alliances. alliances capable of setting up ops to move their jump freighters back and forth from high often enough to provide the enormous number of industrialists among their ranks with the materials necessary to build things.
Providing you with ample oppurtunity to cost them money should you they elect to do so. Take a page from highsec gankers and use some of their methods. There should be even more oppurtunity to so in nullsec without concord breathing down on you. Will it always be successful? No. Will the enemy sometimes make mistakes? Yes. Will they sometimes do everything with precision and perfect planning? yes. There is no mechanic in place gaurunteeing they will come out unscathed, especially when the gaol is to protect a fragile egg. And keep in mind, every freighter killed is ships they can't build. So consider the isk trade-offs if you can.
t'raq mardon wrote:
with these changes it ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE for a small group to even accomplish the tasks necessary to survive in null sec more than ~4AU from a high sec system, and any medium sized group will be easily steamrolled by alliances big enough to move their capitals via gates with support fleets.
And this is bad? Why should we take away the advantage of friends? Why should we cave in and make it easy for any three stooges to do something? Doesnt that just mean it will be even more trivial for everyone else? You may not like to hear it but sometimes you may have to adapt to a change in order to make it work. If no small group (does anyone even have a hard definiionn for this? Seems like 'small ranges from 10-20 people some some cases) can work it out in deep null, where will they congregate?Move to Null closer to empire. Since That will be the easiest place for them to be, which means much more congestion of non-allied groups doing whatever it is they do. Will big alliance still throw their weight around as they see fit? Yes. And no game mechanic will ever change that.

t'raq mardon wrote:
This move doesn't create more game play, it funnels power to the large alliances and makes them drastically harder to unseat.
As apposed to now, where they can be anywhere on the map within 30mins? and should they leave the back door open by dedicating the entire force to one location, whats to stop you from going in and having fun with their space? Surely not the big alliance that is currently unable to drop you from the other side of their space. They split their forces? thats ok. They played it smart. You're enemy is smaller, but if you still can't take them when around 1/2 isnt present did you ever really have a dream of forcefully taking their space? Lets try to be realistic rather than dreamers.
t'raq mardon wrote:
Imagine trying to go to war with a large alliance once you are incapable of even getting your caps in place to die gloriously to their titan blobs. Holding space already REQUIRES cap fleets, now it's going to require you to move them there through hostile territory either by gate or over several days (ever try to get a bunch of players to all be online at the same time?), or hold the territory long enough to build a fleet in place. Both of which would require a sizable group of people to even remotely have a chance.

I'm getting the feeling your scenario is something along the lines of "I live 5 regions away from my target, why is it so hard for me to win this?". And again keep in mind the reality of numbers. Unless you specifically want to design mechanics around arbitrary numbers, the enemies numbers will always be a important factor in deciding your targets. And on the topic of picking your targets, how about picking ones closer to home, where the benefits of your forces will be more immediate. And keep in mind they may have friends. You don't think the allies would have won the second world war without their numbers do you? And like the second world war, they won't always have their strategic assets within minutes of your location waiting to strike. You might argue that the goon plan of caches will work perfectly, but it will still have its limits and drawbacks.

So after reading and responding to this I have come to the conclusion that your groups was:
A. much too small to have any long-term major impact (vastly smaller than the opponent chasen)
B. elected against recruiting more members or forming relationships with others in order to temporarily overcome this adversity
C. made many decisions based on wishful thinking based in a reality that will sadly never exist

You may not like to hear that you have nothing in your hangar or anything on market you can buy that will make you a david to the goliath. Numbers will always be factor and don't pretend they ever shouldn't be.

Also, please stop with the binary situations. They are supposed to go away with the future patches.

E: I know I'm terrible with punctuation today, I'll try to correct myself if I see it.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7096 - 2014-10-06 06:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Rowells wrote:
We gotta be at least somewhat realistic. Understand that their will always be groups that are way out of your league (I have no illusions my alliance will suddenly turn on goons and emerge victorious.)

Already smarter than certain warmongers in Test, I see.

Though to be honest it wouldn't be an alliance-on-alliance fight, you know the whole coalition would get in on that thing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7097 - 2014-10-06 06:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
I think it's time that the valid assumption that CCP Greyscale is a Capital and Logistics Hating sub-cap brony; and has decided that the only way to move in any direction is to undue all previous null related development, turn Cap's into giant subcap's, and start over from scratch with EVE 2.0 is a valid one.

I mean even if you agree with Yar! Captain Neckbeard! will save yer game m8ty! Pirate The quotes are out there that this guy loaths aspects of this game, and is now in a position to *experiment* with his theorycrafting on our meta-level emergent game play that breaks his Utopian view of what EVE 'should' be... vs. what it is.


Cause kinda like carbon in the atmosphere - the enevitable question of at what point does the change become too much can't be avoided? And excluding the voices that will approve of *anything* Yar! Captain Neckbeard! Pirate says of does... is there a limit here that needs to be respected? Or for you corpratists in the audience, that because it's their game, their IP, they can do what ever the @#$@ they want with it and we can either love it or GTFO; is there no point where an exceedingly mature game like ours, deserves a level of Stewardship that isn't necessarily warranted in other games?

While I get this is just one change, that other pieces to the "fix" for Null sec are coming, and no matter how vocal this thread was and sputters on being, this change is so revolutionary for better or worse that is has ignited real fears in those of us who look at this guy and go 'SRSLY?!' - not because we want to protect force projection or blue donuts - but because history tells us you don't **** with a LIVE game and just hope your attempts at social engineering will work out.

Even after re-reading the Dev blog, I continue to have serious misgivings about the ability of this guy to pull off a radical revamp in a LIVE game in light of his past comments on design for EVE Online.

And if nothing else, and I'm totally off base for some of you, I think you can give me that CCP needs to do a hella of a lot better job expressing their 'vision' to the community, to help us heathens understand why their @#$@ing with our game to such an extreme!

'Cause they sure didn't let the CSM in on it like they imp-LIED *cough cough

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7098 - 2014-10-06 06:13:39 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
The quotes are out there that this guy loaths aspects of this game, and is now in a position to *experiment* with his theorycrafting on our meta-level emergent game play that breaks his Utopian view of what EVE 'should' be... vs. what it is.

And hilarious enough, the player will again shape what eve is vs what it was designed to be...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#7099 - 2014-10-06 06:16:23 UTC
Rowells wrote:
They split their forces? thats ok. They played it smart. You're enemy is smaller, but if you still can't take them when around 1/2 isnt present did you ever really have a dream of forcefully taking their space? Lets try to be realistic rather than dreamers.



You may not like to hear that you have nothing in your hangar or anything on market you can buy that will make you a david to the goliath. Numbers will always be factor and don't pretend they ever shouldn't be.

Following from the "isk on field" theory of cap/supercap battlefields, er... well.

Yeah, I got nothing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7100 - 2014-10-06 06:16:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
The quotes are out there that this guy loaths aspects of this game, and is now in a position to *experiment* with his theorycrafting on our meta-level emergent game play that breaks his Utopian view of what EVE 'should' be... vs. what it is.

And hilarious enough, the player will again shape what eve is vs what it was designed to be...



Truth!


Which is why I'm at a loss at what in the world he thinks he's gonna accomplish?! What's next, de-skill all players over 6 years in game and remove captial ships altogether in the name of 'saving the game' once this doesn't work the way they want it to??

O.o

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf