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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#7061 - 2014-10-06 02:51:49 UTC
Devious Johnson wrote:

I would just have no npc stations so null groups cant store undestroyable ship caches and jump clones in these stations.. Ships etc would still need to be stored in destroyable outposts or POSs etc.

Missions are given out by a agent in space. defended by a unkillable/tankable NPC pirates / anchored guns or whatever..

mission hubs should be far enough apart to make using one hub to support another difficult.


That might be interesting.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#7062 - 2014-10-06 02:59:30 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Devious Johnson wrote:

I would just have no npc stations so null groups cant store undestroyable ship caches and jump clones in these stations.. Ships etc would still need to be stored in destroyable outposts or POSs etc.

Missions are given out by a agent in space. defended by a unkillable/tankable NPC pirates / anchored guns or whatever..

mission hubs should be far enough apart to make using one hub to support another difficult.


That might be interesting.

This would only work in NPC Null, having Agents in Player Controlled Null would be ISK printing machines with as many players inside these systems as possible...

In deep Null it'll be impossible to harass, so it'll have nothing but ratting supers...

...
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#7063 - 2014-10-06 02:59:45 UTC
So what are the people in paragon soul and period basis are going to do now?


5 lys will make those regions in accessible

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7064 - 2014-10-06 03:04:59 UTC
Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:

Quote:
Alt A jumps the carrier to System 1 where it trades it off to alt B. Alt B then waits for the capacitor to recharge and jumps to System 2 where the carrier is passed off to Alt C. Alt C then waits for the capacitor to recharge and jumps to System 3 where Alt D jumps into the carrier and waits for the capacitor to recharge before jumping to System 4 (the staging system) where the Pilot's main is waiting.


As you can see, each character only made one jump thus only imposing one stack of penalties which quickly fades away. You don't even need to be with a large entity in EVE to do this. You just need 2 accounts! Account 1 has the Main, Alt A, and Alt D while Account 2 has Alt A and Alt C. This so-called "power projection nerf" does nothing to squelch the power projection from the large entities, it simply promotes the creation of more active accounts or multi-character training in order to get the same results prior to this patch's implementation (Note: I do not know if this is an intended consequence and I will not speculate on it).

It is also impossible to tie the Jump Fatigue to the ships because the player only has to repackage the ship in order to trick the server into thinking the ship is a generic object. It's why when you repackage ships they lose their name as the meta data is erased.

Instead of going to great lengths to make the game more complicated for everyone when a bypass is simply to throw more ISK or IRL money at the game (Note: I do not know if this is an intended consequence and I will not speculate on it) in order to get an easier result, why not simply increase the "size" of the universe? By this I mean space out each constellation and region farther from each other. Every system in EVE has a absolute XYZ coordinate in the database. Spread out the distance between Regions and possibly even Constellations instead of adding in Jump Fatigue. Sure, this will definitely take a while to do but it will not be easy to bypass. Distances are longer and thus more fuel must be spent. No, it won't fix the absolute problem of power projection, but it will make it harder and more risky. Couple this with the 5ly jump and make it near impossible to cross regions without being close to the Region Gate system and you'll create choke points which increase PvP opportunities.

All in all, I believe that CCP was attempting to do the correct thing here but has failed to map out all of the consequences of this change. Something that the CSM should have been able to catch and report to CCP straight away. Let's hope it simply slipped through the cracks instead of being maliciously ignored. By implementing this newly proposed feature nothing will change. Power projection will stay the same and CCP will have put in quite a bit of work on a well-intentioned feature which makes them look the fool.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Scud Maximillion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7065 - 2014-10-06 03:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Scud Maximillion
SanDooD wrote:
Scud Maximillion wrote:


That's because you think CCP is done with you...they aren't. They are just getting started. Your world is ******...you just don't realize it yet. Read between the line of Greyscales comments. He will make it so that if you don't live in the space it is vulnerable.

The implications of this change are not stagnation. They are something very different. You are so desperate to preserve your reality that you cling to a falsehood.



Oh, I see where this is coming from. Can't do a damn thing about us yourself so you put your hope in CCP to save you? Son, my world is untouched by this change. I won't lose sleep over it or stress myself out about it. If it brings back players and the game gets a boost, all the better. If we get good fights and get our butts kicked because of it, great, bring it on. I am, as I believe many of us in null are, always welcoming and open to CONTENT. Come attack our space, come try to take our moons and systems. Come kill ratters and miners. Camp our gates and routes. Do your worst!

Somehow I doubt you will have the guts to do any of those things even after they implement their entire plan for null. You see, nothing and nobody is preventing you from rocking our world and smashing our toys today. It's not as if we're swinging capitals and supers all day every day. You make it seem like by some flaw in the game design alliances of null were able to conquer and hold their space. No. It was through countless hours of sov structure grinding and countless fights. It was through team work and collaboration with our allies. Luck or design flaws had NOTHING to do with it.

Instead of doing what needs to be done now to hinder us in null, you're here putting trust in CCP and hoping they have your pubbie interests in mind above all else. I'd be very careful who I put my trust in. At the end of the day, null alliances will still be in null and you will still get bloody nose from poking a gorilla with a stick, so keep hoping and dreaming that CCP Greyscale is here to hand you portions of null on a silver platter.

I am the one clinging on falsehood? I guess we'll wait and see if that trust of yours was misplaced, but don't go whining how change made things worse, because, for the reasons you don't seem to comprehend yet, it will.


Dude, calm yourself.

Firstly, I am literally on the side of New Eden. I care nothing about what you have or what you do. If I cared, I would come visit. I have not done so out of respect for LAWN (see below).

Secondly, the term "pubbie" is, I believe, used to refer to someone not on the Something Awful forums. Technically, you are also a pubbie. Now, if you are trying to expand the definition to mean "anyone who isn't in your group", then yes, I am a pubbie and rather proud of it. In any event, using that in a sentence is not exactly giving your language arts teacher any bonus points for passingyou.

Thirdly, I lived in null for years and years. In fact, my corp started LAWN with BPH. Further, I was the director of war and finance for LAWN. We left because null is terrible and boring. We should all rejoice if CCP actually makes it fun again.

Finally, you don't understand what Greyscale is doing at all. You cling to rhetoric about "my alliance this" and "my coalition that", without even the semblance of referring to the factual nature of the changes. This conversation was about the changes, not about how tough you think you are and how big your **** is. When you talk the way you do, you show everyone that you have no factual basis of what you are speaking, and that just makes you look like you are, as they say in Texas, "all hat and no cattle".

Tell me why I am wrong. Tell me how the mechanics will preserve you. Don't tell me what you did last week or last year, tell me how you plan to deal with tomorrow. In other words, have an intelligent non-pissy conversation.

I don't know why I bother. This conversation is terrible.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7066 - 2014-10-06 03:09:12 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
This would only work in NPC Null, having Agents in Player Controlled Null would be ISK printing machines with as many players inside these systems as possible...

In deep Null it'll be impossible to harass, so it'll have nothing but ratting supers...

So create an iHub upgrade that replaces the military one. You still maintain sov, but the station becomes run by the local NPC pirate faction, with all the attendant implications. Sov owner loses control of docking rights, fees, etc etc etc. In exchange, they get an L1 agent, and they can improve their "agent index" by running missions, eventually getting an L5 agent.

You get your unlimited isk printing machine and infinitely scaling pilot density... in exchange for less control over the station itself. Worth it...? Kinda up to them to decide.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7067 - 2014-10-06 03:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
CCP Terminus wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:

CCP already said they stopped reading this thread at page 200 because apparently 2 days is long enough for players to think through the changes, discuss, and give feedback. Better than the CSM though!


We are still poopping in and reading the thread, but I think what they meant was that we aren't going to be going page by page and responding to every post. People are not going unheard though.



Translation - Mouse wheel scroll rocks!

Love,

CCP

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7068 - 2014-10-06 03:41:06 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
So what are the people in paragon soul and period basis are going to do now?


5 lys will make those regions in accessible



Caravan Form Up at 2100 EVE

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
C'Nedra Rain
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#7069 - 2014-10-06 03:48:08 UTC
Logistics and trade between hi sec - low sec and vice versa will heavily compromised. To jump a Rorq or a JF to a distance of 33 LY it took 3-4 jumps with JDC 5 to get to a low sec system close to Empire. Now with 5 LY limitation even with less jump fatigue you might need more than 12 cynos most of them located in areas you wanted to avoid and in some cases low/null systems that can be easily predictable by the pirates or enemy fleets. May some of these systems won't have any stations at all even to to dock up.
Logistics will be a nightmare and time consuming and lost of rorq's and JF's will be increased. That will have a great impact in the game and maybe many players will prefer to quit. Because what is the meaning lets say to mining/manufacturing in null sec if you are not able to transfer the end product to hi sec for selling it? Hi sec needs products from null sec and null sec needs products from hi sec. If this kind of trade flow becomes somehow incredibly risky or rare then the consequences for the game will be difficult to predict. Ofc someone can say that new trade hubs will be established in null sec. We all know that Jita became the #1 trade hub in empire because people from all over EVE had access to Jita. To establish and maintain big trade hubs in null sec is almost impossible, risky because of the sov changes and wars and access to them will be extremely limited. On the other hand some of the products/items coming exclusively from null sec will be very expensive in hi sec because of the impaired trade between low/hi sec.
Logistics also support wars in null sec. Before, during and after a war. You cannot fight w/o proper and on time logistics. !!
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7070 - 2014-10-06 03:51:31 UTC
Draconas109 wrote:
Would this change affect people using the jump bridge on poses? If so then that's just stupid



Yes - Confirming JBs affected... any type of jump causes fatigue; and JB range shortened.


"... that's just stupid" - Confirmed!


Yar! Captain Neckbeard! will save yer game m8ty!Pirate

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Tasteless Spacebbq
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7071 - 2014-10-06 03:51:42 UTC
Signing in this threadnaught just cause :reasons:
C'Nedra Rain
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#7072 - 2014-10-06 03:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: C'Nedra Rain
Makari Aeron wrote:
[quote]Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:



you miss something very important !! Now, because of the LY limitations you need more than 12 jumps to do the job and ofc nobody has 12 trained cap pilot alts to do what you say. Even you!
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#7073 - 2014-10-06 04:30:00 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
So what are the people in paragon soul and period basis are going to do now?


5 lys will make those regions in accessible

harder, not unreachable :P Lot of Whs, good relationship with neighbours etc. PB was always region that you couldn' hold without good relationships with Delve/querious.
Scud Maximillion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7074 - 2014-10-06 04:31:02 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
So what are the people in paragon soul and period basis are going to do now?


5 lys will make those regions in accessible

harder, not unreachable :P Lot of Whs, good relationship with neighbours etc. PB was always region that you couldn' hold without good relationships with Delve/querious.



What? Take the gate with subcaps and jump the gates. Hell, you need to hold it for minutes.
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#7075 - 2014-10-06 04:31:08 UTC
C'Nedra Rain wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
[quote]Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:



you miss something very important !! Now, because of the LY limitations you need more than 12 jumps to do the job and ofc nobody has 12 trained cap pilot alts to do what you say. Even you!


You do oen jump, then take one gate which shortcuts by 12LY and you make one more jump....you are in desto, MAGIC!!!! Shocked
t'raq mardon
Laminated Metals
#7076 - 2014-10-06 04:40:49 UTC
C'Nedra Rain wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
[quote]Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:



you miss something very important !! Now, because of the LY limitations you need more than 12 jumps to do the job and ofc nobody has 12 trained cap pilot alts to do what you say. Even you!


also, thats not a ridiculously long and expensive proposition at all. 12 alts all capable of flying [insert capital class here] with perfect jump skills. $45 per month for the three extra accounts and like 6 months per alt just to get trained...
t'raq mardon
Laminated Metals
#7077 - 2014-10-06 04:44:01 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
C'Nedra Rain wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
[quote]Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:



you miss something very important !! Now, because of the LY limitations you need more than 12 jumps to do the job and ofc nobody has 12 trained cap pilot alts to do what you say. Even you!


You do oen jump, then take one gate which shortcuts by 12LY and you die horribly on the other side to a gate camp!!Shocked


fixed
Yadot
Tarfen Enterprises
#7078 - 2014-10-06 04:46:42 UTC
Love the idea - well done CCP
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#7079 - 2014-10-06 04:47:09 UTC
t'raq mardon wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
C'Nedra Rain wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
[quote]Upon further research into this topic, I find it impossibly easy for anyone in EVE to bypass this proposed feature. Let me explain.

A player needs to go to his/her staging system. Said staging system is 20ly away, or 4 jumps. Normally, this would take quite some time as Jump Fatigue would kick in for the pilot. However, this pilot has 4 alts (A, B, C, and D) besides the main character. All pilots can fly his/her carrier and has max jump skills. Instead of taking quite a bit of game time and risk getting to the staging system, this pilot simply pre-stages his/her alts in the systems ahead of time using nearly uncatchable interceptors. As such, the carrier gets to the staging system as such:



you miss something very important !! Now, because of the LY limitations you need more than 12 jumps to do the job and ofc nobody has 12 trained cap pilot alts to do what you say. Even you!


You do oen jump, then take one gate which shortcuts by 12LY and you die horribly on the other side to a gate camp!!Shocked


fixed


if you are dumb enough to do that...yeah :) Natural selection, Eve ftw
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7080 - 2014-10-06 04:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
C'Nedra Rain wrote:
Logistics and trade between hi sec - low sec and vice versa will heavily compromised. To jump a Rorq or a JF to a distance of 33 LY it took 3-4 jumps with JDC 5 to get to a low sec system close to Empire. Now with 5 LY limitation even with less jump fatigue you might need more than 12 cynos most of them located in areas you wanted to avoid and in some cases low/null systems that can be easily predictable by the pirates or enemy fleets. May some of these systems won't have any stations at all even to to dock up.
Logistics will be a nightmare and time consuming and lost of rorq's and JF's will be increased. That will have a great impact in the game and maybe many players will prefer to quit. Because what is the meaning lets say to mining/manufacturing in null sec if you are not able to transfer the end product to hi sec for selling it? Hi sec needs products from null sec and null sec needs products from hi sec. If this kind of trade flow becomes somehow incredibly risky or rare then the consequences for the game will be difficult to predict. Ofc someone can say that new trade hubs will be established in null sec. We all know that Jita became the #1 trade hub in empire because people from all over EVE had access to Jita. To establish and maintain big trade hubs in null sec is almost impossible, risky because of the sov changes and wars and access to them will be extremely limited. On the other hand some of the products/items coming exclusively from null sec will be very expensive in hi sec because of the impaired trade between low/hi sec.
Logistics also support wars in null sec. Before, during and after a war. You cannot fight w/o proper and on time logistics. !!



I understand your concern about logistics, but all assumptions made after that are based off current mechanics.

Here are some things that are now possible and reasonble to do with logistics not being a once-a-day couple of hours a week and still able to feed a massive alliance thing:
- ability to interdict any groups logistics and actually have an effect on supply, Which leads to ->
- manufacturing in null (especially deep null) is now even more imperative since jita price isn't the main driving factor
- wars will have possibility to be smaller and possibly more frequent (less interference from massive fleets). obviously not day 1 after patch, but farther down the line
- encouragement for local production and procurement
- things produced locally will not need to be hauled from highsec (less logistical load)
- anything not made locally will have very high demand and much lower supply meaning anyone who decides hauling is still worth the risk is going to make some extra bucks
- trade hubs are already established in null. Sure theyre not as big as jita but they are still there
- things from null being more expensive? good. actually add some value to those items rather than who got the lowest 0.1isk in jita
- cutting the bloodlines of eve will make it more diverse rather than every null region and highsec being almost identical
- more community gameplay in deep null since there are actual scarcities and threats other than blobs of capitals dropping on you (still technically there but much less so)

All these things that are seen as 'essential' is most of whats causing those at the top of the dogpile to stay there and kick anyone else who tries to climb up. I'll say it again: these changes wont happen overnight. It will take time after the patch and many other needed patches as well. This isnt the final step, but it sure is an important one when you consider the changes coming down the road. Overcoming these new challenges will become as much a part of the game as anything else, and we'll be back here on the forums a year or so from now when someone asks to be rid of fatigue and cooldown to HTFU because thats part of the challenge.

It will definitely hurt at first as we learn to adapt and change our ways, but like the devs say, we tend to outsmart them and we'll figure out many ways to work the system to our own advantage. Contrary to popular belief this isnt a game killer. If anything this change will bring about the most emergent gameplay we've seen in a long time.