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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6941 - 2014-10-05 16:42:10 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
I would encourage folks who are interested in these changes to listen to Manny and Jeffraider (along with some shmoe called Oh Takashawa) from PL do an hour and a half long Q&A over at EVE-Uni. Well worth the listen.

http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=72&p=734425#p734425

They mention freighter convoys fondly, talk about the importance of topography under the new jump paradigm, and speculate on where EVE might go after the patch. Spoiler - none of them think this will break up sov null, and even they admit that the fact that they can hold dronelands unchallenged without even being there is broken.

The future will be interesting times, ladies and gents. Interesting times.

one thing that no one seems to mention is that after this patch alowing caps to use gates, the unreachable drone regions won't be so unreachable anymore Blink

p.s: they will be just one gate jump away form VENAL

Yup. And believe me, smart folks are already realizing that. Of course, invading the dronelands from Venal would kinda be a B0TLRD violation, wouldn't it? And what's to stop someone from the dronelands from invading Venal - and taking the smugglers gates right over to Deklein?

Ah, backdoors and shortcuts. About damn time they started getting used again.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Eigenvalue
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#6942 - 2014-10-05 16:46:09 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
I would encourage folks who are interested in these changes to listen to Manny and Jeffraider (along with some shmoe called Oh Takashawa) from PL do an hour and a half long Q&A over at EVE-Uni. Well worth the listen.

http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=72&p=734425#p734425

They mention freighter convoys fondly, talk about the importance of topography under the new jump paradigm, and speculate on where EVE might go after the patch. Spoiler - none of them think this will break up sov null, and even they admit that the fact that they can hold dronelands unchallenged without even being there is broken.

The future will be interesting times, ladies and gents. Interesting times.

one thing that no one seems to mention is that after this patch alowing caps to use gates, the unreachable drone regions won't be so unreachable anymore Blink

p.s: they will be just one gate jump away form VENAL


LOL

Gate jumping caps is a gimmick. It's only purpose is to create ALOD articles on the mittani.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#6943 - 2014-10-05 16:49:21 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
W Sherman Elric wrote:
The travel changes will be nice but only if they coupled with new access points. As the changes stand **** holes like the ass end of eve in branch are perfectly safe. Null will need to be thinned out more low sec lines of entry. More direct connections to high sec. The biggest problem after power projection is access. but branch one gate from high sec and you have instant content.

Put the ore ring one jump from high sec and instant content.

Change GW to a mix of high, low, and null sec with stations here and there an not true pockets.

more than just jump changes need to happen the map needs to be remodeled.


The downsde to living in places like Branch or Tenal is the huge PITA it'll be to get logisitics done. They never did get around to providing materials for local T2 industry or the other racial isotopes (via new belts, or even new alchemy/industry prints) in null. they should have done that first before these changes.


Agreed but this is decade old, typical EVE and the cart before the horse. When you look at all the stuff this blog puts out, you can almost see what they are trying to accomplish here. They want to create suicide ganking in Null or more accurately, mutually assured destruction scenario's. Part of this plan spoke of not wanting us to SD a pod for travel reasons but if you consider it a possibility they intend to allow us to negate the jump and fatigue through pod loss and ship loss, it's now a whole other game.

Sure, Goons could deploy a large capital fleet to the other side of the Universe but they do so knowing it's never coming back. Kind of like a suicide gank, you know the assets you commit are going to be taken even if the objective is met. If mutual destruction is the new warfare of Null, the decay factor of EVE is back. Losses are blanket and the build it up, blow it up concept of EVE is intact.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6944 - 2014-10-05 16:50:59 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
[LOL

Gate jumping caps is a gimmick. It's only purpose is to create ALOD articles on the mittani.

I guarandamntee you that people with balls will do it in a heartbeat if it gives them an advantage. The fact that there are so many risk averse numpties laughing at how it'll never happen will just make the surprise buttsex all the sweeter.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#6945 - 2014-10-05 16:56:16 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
[LOL

Gate jumping caps is a gimmick. It's only purpose is to create ALOD articles on the mittani.

I guarandamntee you that people with balls will do it in a heartbeat if it gives them an advantage. The fact that there are so many risk averse numpties laughing at how it'll never happen will just make the surprise buttsex all the sweeter.


If we are given a more efficient way of removing bubble walls, I very much agree. Jumping my carrier to a gate doesn't intimidate me. Even losing it to a gate camp is kind of m'eh. Being forced to double jump, triple jump every gate because drag bubble net? That's just sounds boring and painful.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6946 - 2014-10-05 16:57:12 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
uziel99 wrote:
W Sherman Elric wrote:
The travel changes will be nice but only if they coupled with new access points. As the changes stand **** holes like the ass end of eve in branch are perfectly safe. Null will need to be thinned out more low sec lines of entry. More direct connections to high sec. The biggest problem after power projection is access. but branch one gate from high sec and you have instant content.

Put the ore ring one jump from high sec and instant content.

Change GW to a mix of high, low, and null sec with stations here and there an not true pockets.

more than just jump changes need to happen the map needs to be remodeled.


The downsde to living in places like Branch or Tenal is the huge PITA it'll be to get logisitics done. They never did get around to providing materials for local T2 industry or the other racial isotopes (via new belts, or even new alchemy/industry prints) in null. they should have done that first before these changes.

PL's Manfred Sideous says the same thing. See, this is bringing all of nullsec together!

Let's form the actual blue doughnut for 6 months and burn empire to the ground, pretty please!


You are ********, stop posting.


You're right, it wouldn't even take 6 weeks.
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#6947 - 2014-10-05 16:58:54 UTC
After 350 pages of tears from nullbears, I wouldn't put my money on CCP actually breaking the status quo of the nullsec power projection.

But if they do, they'll have my total undivided respect.
Gwailar
Doomheim
#6948 - 2014-10-05 17:09:20 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
What if fatigue accumulation and it's impact on jump timers were independent factors?

In other words, you BLOPS to a cyno 7.875 AU away. You gain a jump timer of (1+(distance*distance modifier)) * ( 1+(fatigue * timer modifier)). Your new fatigue is (fatigue * (1 + (distance * fatigue modifier))).

You could then have BLOPS be able to jump rapidly and accumulate fatigue at a higher rate. So use something like 0.1 for the "timer modifier" and 0.5 for the "fatigue modifier". You could even keep the "distance modifier at 1.

This would give you a jump timer of 8.875 minutes, with a fatigue of say 5.45 or so. Your next max range jump gets you something like a 13.71 minute jump timer, with a fatigue of roughly 24.18. This would let you make a lot of jumps relatively quickly, but still saddle you with a large fatigue modifier which would impair your ability to hop in other jump-capable ships and carry on operations normally.

This would also give a lot of tunability to devs, who can then independently tweak the impact of distance jumped on jump timers, distance jumped on fatigue accumulation, and the impact of fatigue on jump timers.


Reposted because there hasn't been a dev response. I didn't see a similar suggestion before CCP Greyscale went offline, and none of his responses responded to this particular idea.

Jump fatigue should be a single value that generates at the same rate regardless of ship type.
Jump cooldown should be calculated based on jump fatigue at a variable rate depending on ship type, or skills, or implants, or boosters or whatever other variables you want to throw in.

This approach would offer a solution to the BLOPS and JF problem by allowing BLOPS pilots to jump more often, even while generating levels of fatigue that would prevent jumping for a long (even very long) period of time were the pilot to move over to a cap.

Separating fatigue and cooldown in this way, making the one a global stat for the pilot, and the other a calculated value applied in the ship at the moment of the jump based on lots of mutable variables offers many gameplay options for the player and tuning controls for the devs.

If you see downsides, post them.




"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Sierra Grey
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6949 - 2014-10-05 17:10:29 UTC
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
After 350 pages of tears from nullbears, I wouldn't put my money on CCP actually breaking the status quo of the nullsec power projection.

But if they do, they'll have my total undivided respect.


351 pages of why Members of CCP should not go out drinking and coming up with new ideas.
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#6950 - 2014-10-05 17:15:36 UTC
Sierra Grey wrote:
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
After 350 pages of tears from nullbears, I wouldn't put my money on CCP actually breaking the status quo of the nullsec power projection.

But if they do, they'll have my total undivided respect.


351 pages of why Members of CCP should not go out drinking and coming up with new ideas.


Stagnation is bad, your leader said it, now that you got a brilliant idea to shake up the water you prefer the stagnation?
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6951 - 2014-10-05 17:16:14 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
What if fatigue accumulation and it's impact on jump timers were independent factors?

In other words, you BLOPS to a cyno 7.875 AU away. You gain a jump timer of (1+(distance*distance modifier)) * ( 1+(fatigue * timer modifier)). Your new fatigue is (fatigue * (1 + (distance * fatigue modifier))).

You could then have BLOPS be able to jump rapidly and accumulate fatigue at a higher rate. So use something like 0.1 for the "timer modifier" and 0.5 for the "fatigue modifier". You could even keep the "distance modifier at 1.

This would give you a jump timer of 8.875 minutes, with a fatigue of say 5.45 or so. Your next max range jump gets you something like a 13.71 minute jump timer, with a fatigue of roughly 24.18. This would let you make a lot of jumps relatively quickly, but still saddle you with a large fatigue modifier which would impair your ability to hop in other jump-capable ships and carry on operations normally.

This would also give a lot of tunability to devs, who can then independently tweak the impact of distance jumped on jump timers, distance jumped on fatigue accumulation, and the impact of fatigue on jump timers.


Reposted because there hasn't been a dev response. I didn't see a similar suggestion before CCP Greyscale went offline, and none of his responses responded to this particular idea.

Jump fatigue should be a single value that generates at the same rate regardless of ship type.
Jump cooldown should be calculated based on jump fatigue at a variable rate depending on ship type, or skills, or implants, or boosters or whatever other variables you want to throw in.

This approach would offer a solution to the BLOPS and JF problem by allowing BLOPS pilots to jump more often, even while generating levels of fatigue that would prevent jumping for a long (even very long) period of time were the pilot to move over to a cap.

Separating fatigue and cooldown in this way, making the one a global stat for the pilot, and the other a calculated value applied in the ship at the moment of the jump based on lots of mutable variables offers many gameplay options for the player and tuning controls for the devs.

If you see downsides, post them.





I think doing that, plus increasing JF range to BLOPS-levels, would solve all the problems with this.
Fitz VonHeise
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6952 - 2014-10-05 17:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fitz VonHeise
I'm sure that this has already been posted but I want the Devs to get the point:

About 75% of our corp use caps and spent isk and years training to fly them. We all see this as a nerf of cap pilots and almost all of us have decided to unsub.

We see this as the final straw that will cause us to go find another game.
And no you can't have our stuff. We will just park it all in low sec and come back in a few months and see if CCP comes to their senses.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6953 - 2014-10-05 17:25:59 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
[LOL

Gate jumping caps is a gimmick. It's only purpose is to create ALOD articles on the mittani.

I guarandamntee you that people with balls will do it in a heartbeat if it gives them an advantage. The fact that there are so many risk averse numpties laughing at how it'll never happen will just make the surprise buttsex all the sweeter.


If we are given a more efficient way of removing bubble walls, I very much agree. Jumping my carrier to a gate doesn't intimidate me. Even losing it to a gate camp is kind of m'eh. Being forced to double jump, triple jump every gate because drag bubble net? That's just sounds boring and painful.

Yup, bubble walls would need to be dealt with. But I wonder how good of an eye folks really keep on those. Wonder what would happen if a crew were to head in early to blap them with nullified T3s / bombers / BLOPS BS and the like.

And, of course, bubble walls would impede subcap response times, and we already know the hard choices that are involved in capital travel after these changes.

My prediction is that as soon as the next major conflict starts, or as soon as major capital forces are committed in one area of the game, the rest of nullsec is going to light on fire as folks take advantage. Might not cause a major shift in the map, but damn will chaos reign for a while.

Better defensive SBU every damn gate in every bit of sov now, while you can gents.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Inherent Legend
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6954 - 2014-10-05 17:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Inherent Legend
So, here's a better idea, but it will require a lot of coding, a lot of testing and it will probably be a while before it can be deployed on TQ, so you probably won't be interested in it.... But here it is anyway:

MAKE IT SO THAT ITS POSSIBLE FOR BOBBY TABLES DO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS DARN FORCE PROJECTION OF A CAP FLEET IN HIS NECK OF THE WOODS!

How? Well for one, you could make it so that instead of waiting a long time between jumps, the fleet would have to wait a little bit during the jump. Let's say a jump takes about 30 seconds per light year. During that time, Bobby Tables can call some friends over to help him destroy the Cyno ship and interrupt the fleets jump.

Obviously:

- If a Cyno ship attempts to Cloak once the fleet has initiated their jump, it breaks the Cyno.

- Cyno ships with a Cyno up cannot move.

- Smaller Cyno ships jump others faster while larger one's jump them slower (balancing feature)

- If Bobby Tables and his friends succeed in destroying the Cyno ship, the jump is successfully interrupted.

MAKE IT EVEN MORE INTERESTING:

- If a Cyno ship is destroyed and it successfully interrupts a jump, those ships that are in the jump get "dropped" somewhere at random in a system between the point or origin and destination. (doesn't that make sense?)

- The stranded ships have only half their capacitors available and 1 random high mod, mid and 1 random low are offline and unusable. (Should make them want to dock as a priority, further slowing down their efforts to re-group)

- Don't allow Capitals to use gates. Now they have to go fetch each one, one by one. Mwahahaha! Twisted

Some foreseeable effects (how it will change the game):

- Much more interesting then having to deal with timers, math and logistics (more flying, less thinking/calculating/planning)

- Hotdrops? Still possible, but before you hotdrop a fleet of Caps halfway accross the galaxy, think about the risk you're taking with all these Cap Pilots possibly getting stranded.

- FCs will now want to have several Cyno capable ships in fleet rather than just 1, even if only to use the others as decoys.

- Strategy, more strategy!

- Some Pirates/Ops/Fleets probably specializing in Cyno Seek & Destroy missions! Pirate

- At home, jumping around is inherently safer than abroad (Shouldn't it be?)

Can we please think about doing something like this instead of adding more timers?

Legends
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#6955 - 2014-10-05 17:28:43 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
I would encourage folks who are interested in these changes to listen to Manny and Jeffraider (along with some shmoe called Oh Takashawa) from PL do an hour and a half long Q&A over at EVE-Uni. Well worth the listen.

http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=72&p=734425#p734425

They mention freighter convoys fondly, talk about the importance of topography under the new jump paradigm, and speculate on where EVE might go after the patch. Spoiler - none of them think this will break up sov null, and even they admit that the fact that they can hold dronelands unchallenged without even being there is broken.

The future will be interesting times, ladies and gents. Interesting times.

one thing that no one seems to mention is that after this patch alowing caps to use gates, the unreachable drone regions won't be so unreachable anymore Blink

p.s: they will be just one gate jump away form VENAL

Yup. And believe me, smart folks are already realizing that. Of course, invading the dronelands from Venal would kinda be a B0TLRD violation, wouldn't it? And what's to stop someone from the dronelands from invading Venal - and taking the smugglers gates right over to Deklein?

Ah, backdoors and shortcuts. About damn time they started getting used again.

You're talking as if people aren't already preparing to invade

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6956 - 2014-10-05 17:32:02 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
1. Not only the huge number of caps but the ability to move materials from high sec to 0.0 to build them. Wanting a farms and fields type game begins with terrain and preventing the JF from selling and shopping at JITA MART. What I find crazy is reading the addiction to high sec the current 0.0 groups have. I thought you guys hated high sec.


1. We need to move massive amounts of material from highsec to 0.0 simply because our fields out in 0.0 don't produce enough Mex for any large scale production. The industry changes did make producing out in 0.0 viable, but without another mineral reballance out in 0.0, mining and producing locally simply isn't viable, also producing T2 out in 0.0 now means you can only produce what your local moons can give you. That is going to suck when you have an armor doctrine and can only produce T2 shield stuff, or the wrong race of T2 ships. If you are having to import raw material just to produce stuff out on the fringes, it would be smarter to simply shut down production and just import the finnished goods from highsec anyway. So yea, we 'hate' highsec, but it still is the only place to shop for everything you need out in the 'frontier'.

The fantasy of mining and producing locally, falls flat on its face when confronted by the reality that you would need to mine out an anomally (the only 'unlimited' source of minerals) anywhere between 20-30 times in order to get the amount of mex to build only 100 battleships. That isn't even half of a Baltec fleet welp. It takes a little over 21 man hours to mine out a small ore site with max Roqual boosts, and you would need to do it 30 times to get the Mex for those 100 battleships. Thats 630 man hours, just to get enough Mex for not even half a fleet that can be lost in less than an hour. Meanwhile what are you going to do with the Megacite to build 3k battleships that you got from cycling an anomally to get enough Mex to poduce only 100. Who is going to buy your surplus Mega if everybody else locally has plenty of highend but no Mex like you. You would ship it to highsec, but now how are you going to get it there to sell that isn't a PITA?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#6957 - 2014-10-05 17:33:56 UTC
Sierra Grey wrote:
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
After 350 pages of tears from nullbears, I wouldn't put my money on CCP actually breaking the status quo of the nullsec power projection.

But if they do, they'll have my total undivided respect.


351 pages of why Members of CCP should not go out drinking and coming up with new ideas.


I support original thinking from CCP.

What we got was an infancy level, rambling dev blog that forced us to react in uninformed ways.
Urban Camo
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6958 - 2014-10-05 17:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Urban Camo
CCP is so set on making things balanced. Balance vs fun is where they are missing big time.

Did anyone give any thoughts to the demographics of players before imposing these changes? Eve is a game, it can be a job, and it can consume al lot of time doing things such as logistics.

I would be cursious to know your averag real life player demographic by age, then by income, then profession.

You are missing the target on your players that don't have 16 hours a day to site and play a game. When I get home from work, I have other priorities. If I get maybe 3-4 hours of game play every other day, and I have to do logistics I am less inclined to continue playing. If I can log in, do a little bit of fun, whether building, ratting, or pvping; that is what is fun.

I will continue to play until logistics are such a pain, that I can't get the modules I have spent a long time training for to be efficient. I will most likely move back to high sec and look for the occasional lowsec pvp, or wormhole to null. I will eventually ge bored and unsub.

You raeally need to look at demographic vs time vs fun. Jump fatigue is not the way to go, killing logistics is not the right way to go. The best idea I have seen is capacitor regen rates reduced with each jump. That will affect all ships, after a few jumps, the logis won't be able to generate enough cap for themselves, let alone the fleet they are trying to support .

Adding more time for movement of items means less playing time.

Here till I get bored.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#6959 - 2014-10-05 17:40:44 UTC
Urban Camo wrote:
Jump fatigue is not the way to go, killing logistics is not the right way to go. The best idea I have seen is capacitor regen rates reduced with each jump. That will affect all ships, after a few jumps, the logos won't be able to generate enough cap for themselves, let alone the fleet they are trying to support .

Though... in a lot of cases carrier blobs aren't constantly running reps. And you do generate cap by means of the capchain (another thing blobbers do)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#6960 - 2014-10-05 17:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
Fitz VonHeise wrote:
I'm sure that this has already been posted but I want the Devs to get the point:

About 75% of our corp use caps and spent isk and years training to fly them. We all see this as a nerf of cap pilots and almost all of us have decided to unsub.

We see this as the final straw that will cause us to go find another game.
And no you can't have our stuff. We will just park it all in low sec and come back in a few months and see if CCP comes to their senses.


HTFU, Adapt or DIE, Bio Mass or it didn't happen, WOW is That------->Way and last but not least Can I have your stuff. Honestly if all the caps un subbed in this game eve would be a better place don't you get it. It is going to take 2-3 year to un tuck this game. The isk pooling and the pooling of players in this game has happen over the last 4 years. All of those pools will slowly be drained. The one that will take the longest will be the breaking up of major alliances that have collected some of the best players in the game from organizing their own groups to be part of the easy mode. I can only hope that the hate still burns and the fire in old school grudges still lurks and over time the need to break out and go at it again comes to the top once again.

It is going to take 2-3 years to train new eve players and build groups to make a go of it. They will play eve in hard mode and be better for it. The game will change over night in programming only, it will be years before you see old school eve back up and running. Stay the course CCP and burn it all down