These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6761 - 2014-10-04 23:14:54 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
SanDooD wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
[quote=Monasucks]And another thing came up my mind with all those changes.
We play eve in our free time.
Now we should wait and sped our freetime haveing less fun and just idle for some kind of cooldown or by boaring travelling by gates?

CCP - in the small amount of time I have - I want to play this game and have time todo stuff! I don't want to move every second day a jf a jump and wait for the cooldown and fly the cyno around - that much time I do not have!

Please consider this!




I think you and a lot of folks are missing the fatigue thing. CCP isn't looking to waste your time on cool down stuff.



That they want to use fatigue to gimp force projection is fine.

But they are also doing it to people who are going to use jump drives who have absolutely no intention of engaging in combat what so ever.

I think it is different if you are talking about a gang of supers who are very much intent on engaging in combat, vs. a guy who is doing everything he can to avoid it.

In other words, fatigue for combat ships...okay. Fatigue, even with the JF bonus, not so fine. Logistics is not exactly fun. How do we know this:

1. Very few people do it.
2. They do it in ways to get it done as efficiently as possible.
3. They are often asked to do it.

That doesn't mean some don't like it--you find weird people everywhere that like all kinds of crazy things. And some might do it as a way of generating isk (e.g. the various Frog businesses).

Nerf power projection...fine. Nerfing logistics to this extent...not so fine. In fact, rather dubious.


If any changes to implement null self-sufficiency are to succeed without negatively impacting what we now have as a universal market (all things always compared to 'Jita price'), Jita everywhere needs to have additional risk and checks balancing bringing those good to the farthest reaches of space (and vice versa)

Jita of course wont stop being the trade hub, but localization is localization, and its very likely the case the JF nerf is being served up to pair with the next step of their null plans.

Logistics may not be fun, but it is a crucial element to null power. It should not be expected to reap the rewards of highsec markets so quickly or easily in the furthest reaches of null.

A great addition I think would be to restore lowsec gaps between the 4 empires. This would greatly invigorate market pvp and add more relevence to the other trade hubs as the corners of space seek to do highsec business at the closest hub possible

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#6762 - 2014-10-04 23:39:18 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
SanDooD wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
[quote=Monasucks]And another thing came up my mind with all those changes.
We play eve in our free time.
Now we should wait and sped our freetime haveing less fun and just idle for some kind of cooldown or by boaring travelling by gates?

CCP - in the small amount of time I have - I want to play this game and have time todo stuff! I don't want to move every second day a jf a jump and wait for the cooldown and fly the cyno around - that much time I do not have!

Please consider this!




I think you and a lot of folks are missing the fatigue thing. CCP isn't looking to waste your time on cool down stuff.



That they want to use fatigue to gimp force projection is fine.

But they are also doing it to people who are going to use jump drives who have absolutely no intention of engaging in combat what so ever.

I think it is different if you are talking about a gang of supers who are very much intent on engaging in combat, vs. a guy who is doing everything he can to avoid it.

In other words, fatigue for combat ships...okay. Fatigue, even with the JF bonus, not so fine. Logistics is not exactly fun. How do we know this:

1. Very few people do it.
2. They do it in ways to get it done as efficiently as possible.
3. They are often asked to do it.

That doesn't mean some don't like it--you find weird people everywhere that like all kinds of crazy things. And some might do it as a way of generating isk (e.g. the various Frog businesses).

Nerf power projection...fine. Nerfing logistics to this extent...not so fine. In fact, rather dubious.


If any changes to implement null self-sufficiency are to succeed without negatively impacting what we now have as a universal market (all things always compared to 'Jita price'), Jita everywhere needs to have additional risk and checks balancing bringing those good to the farthest reaches of space (and vice versa)

Jita of course wont stop being the trade hub, but localization is localization, and its very likely the case the JF nerf is being served up to pair with the next step of their null plans.

Logistics may not be fun, but it is a crucial element to null power. It should not be expected to reap the rewards of highsec markets so quickly or easily in the furthest reaches of null.

A great addition I think would be to restore lowsec gaps between the 4 empires. This would greatly invigorate market pvp and add more relevence to the other trade hubs as the corners of space seek to do highsec business at the closest hub possible


Yes, because having less trade is always better. Roll
whaynethepain
#6763 - 2014-10-04 23:41:19 UTC
There are two things that are infinite;

The universe.

And peoples stupidity.

Though, i'm not totally sure about the first point.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Mona Me
poon-tang
#6764 - 2014-10-05 00:06:00 UTC
Dumbest question of this thread.

Is the basic fault in the game the layout of the galaxy itself? Is this causing the human reaction to all problems (real or in game) to cause the stagnation in the game?

I have been trying to keep up with this threadnought till my eyes bled. From what I have read, it seems that the fixes are trying to overcome a fundamental flaw in the map? A two camp system simply because that's the way the map fell into place in a time long time ago when the game was first out and no one knew how far it would go? Updated/nerfed/whatever since then?


Seems to me (and no, I don't fly in low/null, yes, I can fly caps/jf) that some good alternatives were put forth as a better solution to the "current" problem. But few keep bumping them? Everyone seems more happy to bash each other over to many things that do not apply to this thread or help with the matter at hand.





(bends over for upcoming b*ttf**k)Oops
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#6765 - 2014-10-05 00:07:57 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If, as they say they have, the null-sec folk have already worked out how to counter CCP's proposals, why is this thread so full of null-sec folk threatening to quit all their X number of accounts?

Surely being unable to hot drop cruisers on the other side of the Eve universe is not worth rage quitting over.

I would suggest that folk reserve judgment until CCP reveal the rest of their plans for null-sec.

Then, as with all the changes CCP make, folk can at least threaten to rage quit with all the facts at hand.


You know how 2 year old's try to manipulate everything they don't like.

CCP is the main problem because they have proven they can be manipulated.

"They" need to take control of their game.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#6766 - 2014-10-05 00:09:25 UTC
Remember coming up next week will be some refinements to everything.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6767 - 2014-10-05 00:16:26 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Remember coming up next week will be some refinements to everything.

Shhhhhh...that's a secret
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6768 - 2014-10-05 00:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Mona Me wrote:
Dumbest question of this thread.

Is the basic fault in the game the layout of the galaxy itself? Is this causing the human reaction to all problems (real or in game) to cause the stagnation in the game?

I have been trying to keep up with this threadnought till my eyes bled. From what I have read, it seems that the fixes are trying to overcome a fundamental flaw in the map? A two camp system simply because that's the way the map fell into place in a time long time ago when the game was first out and no one knew how far it would go? Updated/nerfed/whatever since then?


Seems to me (and no, I don't fly in low/null, yes, I can fly caps/jf) that some good alternatives were put forth as a better solution to the "current" problem. But few keep bumping them? Everyone seems more happy to bash each other over to many things that do not apply to this thread or help with the matter at hand.





(bends over for upcoming b*ttf**k)Oops



The basic fault is Yar! Captain Neckbeard! Pirate pressing a GIANT RESET button on null sec by OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer theorycraft (we had lots of options but went with this one cause someone won a coin toss - now lets hit the bar!) feature *nerf* of Capitals; in an attempt to start building EVE 2.

They made something... we broke it.

They made something more ... and we broke that.

Instead of *fixing* the game mechanics, their now breaking our ships to forcibly social engineer Null Sec behavior.

...

Sociopathic game development at its finest!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Mona Me
poon-tang
#6769 - 2014-10-05 00:40:58 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Mona Me wrote:
Dumbest question of this thread.

Is the basic fault in the game the layout of the galaxy itself? Is this causing the human reaction to all problems (real or in game) to cause the stagnation in the game?

I have been trying to keep up with this threadnought till my eyes bled. From what I have read, it seems that the fixes are trying to overcome a fundamental flaw in the map? A two camp system simply because that's the way the map fell into place in a time long time ago when the game was first out and no one knew how far it would go? Updated/nerfed/whatever since then?


Seems to me (and no, I don't fly in low/null, yes, I can fly caps/jf) that some good alternatives were put forth as a better solution to the "current" problem. But few keep bumping them? Everyone seems more happy to bash each other over to many things that do not apply to this thread or help with the matter at hand.





(bends over for upcoming b*ttf**k)Oops



The basic fault is Yar! Captain Neckbeard! Pirate pressing a GIANT RESET button on null sec by OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer theorycraft (we had lots of options but went with this one cause someone one a coin toss) feature *nerf* of Capitals; in an attempt to start building EVE 2.

They made something... we broke it.

They made something more ... and we broke that.

Instead of *fixing* the game mechanics, their now breaking our ships to forcibly social engineer Null Sec behavior.

...

Sociopathic game development at its finest!


I must admit, the player base adapts much better/faster than CCP.
Zowie Brennan
Forsaken Enigma
#6770 - 2014-10-05 00:45:42 UTC
I think I have come up with a simple fix to the issue at hand for the proposed changes to the way capitals are used and moved. Instead of adding all theses timers and nerfing the jump drive to all jump drive capable ships by 50-70% which is what is being proposed.

Step 1

The universe is always in a state of flux and ever shifting, ever expanding. So we expand the distance between stars/systems by lets say 33-55%. This makes it more difficult to move not only capital forces quickly but also slows the deployment of sub cap fleets via portals. This makes escalation of fights a bit harder to do as well

Step 2

For Carriers and Dreads leave the jump range as it is now, you add a static Jump Drive cool down timer of say 10-15 mins, similar to that of the DD cool down. Still allow these ships the chose to use gates if they like.. For Black Ops not only add the Jump Drive cool down but also add a portal cool down timer.

Titans and SuperCarriers
For these ship classes, limit their jump range to 10LY with the jump drive cool down timers as proposed in the Dev Blog.

Logistical Capitals

Jump Freighters and Rorquals

The only thing you change is how far they can Jump. Increase their range by 30-45% with no cool down timers. Lets face it logistics are a pain
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#6771 - 2014-10-05 01:01:08 UTC
Mona Me wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Mona Me wrote:
Dumbest question of this thread.

Is the basic fault in the game the layout of the galaxy itself? Is this causing the human reaction to all problems (real or in game) to cause the stagnation in the game?

I have been trying to keep up with this threadnought till my eyes bled. From what I have read, it seems that the fixes are trying to overcome a fundamental flaw in the map? A two camp system simply because that's the way the map fell into place in a time long time ago when the game was first out and no one knew how far it would go? Updated/nerfed/whatever since then?


Seems to me (and no, I don't fly in low/null, yes, I can fly caps/jf) that some good alternatives were put forth as a better solution to the "current" problem. But few keep bumping them? Everyone seems more happy to bash each other over to many things that do not apply to this thread or help with the matter at hand.





(bends over for upcoming b*ttf**k)Oops



The basic fault is Yar! Captain Neckbeard! Pirate pressing a GIANT RESET button on null sec by OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer theorycraft (we had lots of options but went with this one cause someone one a coin toss) feature *nerf* of Capitals; in an attempt to start building EVE 2.

They made something... we broke it.

They made something more ... and we broke that.

Instead of *fixing* the game mechanics, their now breaking our ships to forcibly social engineer Null Sec behavior.

...

Sociopathic game development at its finest!


I must admit, the player base adapts much better/faster than CCP.

I hate hotdroppers/capitals but I really hate seeing the jump freighters wrapped up in this. My buddy cant even go from 2 adjacent systems with max skills (Kari-YMP) in Providence (1 jump by stargate). Jump freighters are literally useless. Cant even go next door to some systems with this nerf.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#6772 - 2014-10-05 01:01:08 UTC
Just leaving this here from many years ago to show you are right, nothing much has changed in the last few years.
Mona Me
poon-tang
#6773 - 2014-10-05 01:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mona Me
My question still remains. Is the map to blame for the fundamental problems?
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#6774 - 2014-10-05 01:25:27 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Oh, btw, can any of the people who think EVE is about to go back to the 'golden days' of convoys link me the videos from back then showing Convoys protected by Nano Triage Carriers that can take gates and warp as fast as battleships?

I'll wait Twisted



No onesaid woudl be exaclty same as in past. Your point just proves that will be easier now than was back then.


Carriers can go alogn jump freighetrs and protect them from any small attacks and when the scout finds a big enemy forge.. JF andcarriers JUMP over that challenge.



The thing we all mean is SOLO logistics because logistics is as challenging as peeling a banana wil be a thing of the past. Group operations will be more important.

A strong alliance will be one with people oNLINE, not people on jabber waiting so they can hotdrop something.



The Strong Alliance will be the one that ....is the one that exist now after Jump Freighter pilots learn that they can get around these barriers by training their cyno alts to use their jump freighter and recon ships. That makes the "solo jump across the universe" delay only 5 minutes per jump and limited only to the number of alts a JF pilot is willing to acquire.

When will they figure this out? Yesterday lol.

These changes (like Dominion 5 years ago) prove that people will believe what they want to believe rather than apply some caution and critical thinking to their beliefs. Some of you guys are so panicky right now, CCP could literally implement space unicorns and you'd agree with it.


Rule number #1 of jump club, is we dont talk about jump club.
Mona Me
poon-tang
#6775 - 2014-10-05 01:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mona Me
10 min, 2 post? I didn't mean to kill this thread, it just seemed like a legitimate question...
Sienna Toth
Pulsar Phisics Shipyards
#6776 - 2014-10-05 01:33:10 UTC
Okay I can see folks are just not understanding that CCP Grayscale thinks this will cause people to use the gates because the jumps are slower. So so so wrong.

Okay so if CCP Grayscale (Brainchild of the crap no one wants) wants to encourage gate travel think about this:

Allow the gates to jump ships to the next system for 0 isk as they do today.

If one wants to pay extra per M3 then allow the gates to transport n-gates on the route.

Might want to limit it to 6 jumps, and probably want to tie the charges to LO prices.
Aerich e'Kieron
Peace.Keepers
#6777 - 2014-10-05 01:33:17 UTC
Mona Me wrote:
My question still remains. Is the map to blame for the fundamental problems?


I think the map is mostly fine as it is.
Stargates provide a good baseline for measuring how long the "hard way" is to travel between two points.
I think gates are pretty much fine as they are, there's a reasonable number of them connecting member-systems of constellations, less that connect constellations together, and even less still that connect regions together.
The systems, constellations, and regions are quite varied in terms of their number of constellations, systems, the number of connections therein, etc.
The map is random enough to have some regions really close to empire, some very far away, some well-connected, others not.

I think it offers quite a lot of types of variation in the distances, connections, number of systems, etc, and that it's pretty nice.


The map mostly deals with how systems are connected via stargates and traveling that way.
It's easy enough to tweak the ranges on jump drives to change the perception of the size of the map and distances in regards to jump-capable ships.

If you started to pull everything much closer together or much farther apart it would start to make a bigger difference, but I think it's fine as is.

That's my opinion anyway.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#6778 - 2014-10-05 01:44:36 UTC
Sienna Toth wrote:
Okay I can see folks are just not understanding that CCP Grayscale thinks this will cause people to use the gates because the jumps are slower. So so so wrong.

Okay so if CCP Grayscale (Brainchild of the crap no one wants) wants to encourage gate travel think about this:

Allow the gates to jump ships to the next system for 0 isk as they do today.

If one wants to pay extra per M3 then allow the gates to transport n-gates on the route.

Might want to limit it to 6 jumps, and probably want to tie the charges to LO prices.



Can you reword that?
Because right now it sounds like the mother of all shiptoasts of the day

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#6779 - 2014-10-05 01:44:37 UTC
This really bites - Fatigue, unlike everything else in eve which is real time based, only reduces while you are logged in. If you have 4 hours fatigue when you log out, you will still have 4 hours fatigue when you next log in - Nice work CCP, completely change the real time aspect of eve to suit your nerfs. Whats next, skill training only counts down while you are logged in?

EG; I moved my JF and accrued 4 hours of fatigue, then had to go to bed because i have work the next day. Next night I log in for the few hours of online time I have but am unable to move my JF due to still having 4 hours fatigue, 24 hours after I got it.


Yes I can use gates but why bother owning a JF if more than half your time and distance traveled is to be spent using gates?
"Jump Freighter", to me the name implies it should be able to use its jump drive, after all, that is why I spent all those months training and 6 bil isk on the JF for.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6780 - 2014-10-05 01:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Mona Me wrote:
My question still remains. Is the map to blame for the fundamental problems?



No.

The emergent meta-level content we as a community created with the tools CCP gave us, in which they never expected us being able to break null sec...

That's what's to blame.

Blaming the map is like blaming your bed sheets for why you had a bad dream.

... and while we're at it... can someone please wake me up from this nightmare? My EVE Online Hello Kitty Stealth Bomber bed sheets are getting twisted around my neck...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf