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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6621 - 2014-10-04 16:58:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Yea, cause F1 monkeys have all the skilz, oh wait, you don't even fit your own ships.
I clearly didn't say we do have all the skills. No section of space has an inherently more skilled player base than any other, even if lowsec pilots do like to pretend the are the pinnacle of PvP skill. And again, if they are so skilled, why do they not win AT every single year? They can;t blame this on on blobbing like they blame everything else.

Eh.... I'm pretty sure if you took the AVERAGE person living in sov space (and that includes like, what, 40,000 renters?) and compare it to the average lowsec resident, you'd probly find a bit of a difference in player skill.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#6622 - 2014-10-04 16:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
PotatoOverdose wrote:
gascanu wrote:

dude, i want what you are smoking, really." topology of new eden will change overnight?" why? will a star explode or somethig?
eve map the day after this patch will be the same as the map of the previous day;
"that this will happen is a certainty" - are you some sort of nostradamus now? even ccp have no ideea how things will evolve, and they admited it openly, but hey if you say so...

and on the second part you are again wrong: importing from jita will still be the best way for the large alliances; they have the entry points to 0.0 and the have allot of titans to bridge their freighters around; at the most, this will cost them 1-2h/week when they will need 5-6 titans online to bridge those freighters; it's just that simple Roll

Mate, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Say I want to jump from Stain to lowsec, there's only 2 station systems in stain that can make that jump NRT4 and T-NN. Cut jump distance to 5 LY and stain becomes inaccessible from empire without going through sov space or wormholes. That is an example of a massive topological change, one that will affect all of the player living in that particular region, and those types of topological changes will occur all over eve on day 1 of phoebe.

If you're ignorant of something, it's best not to resort to insults as your first option.


there is a very easy fix to that topology change you are talking about: you get blue standings with the guys that own the the sov space you need to pass to reach your home; there , problem solved Blink
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6623 - 2014-10-04 16:58:56 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.

Didn't some legion or other recently trash one of your much larger battleship fleets supported by caps, like 2 days ago? You had the numbers advantage and the isk advantage and you lost 18 bil worth of stuff. How do you explain that?
**** happens? I vaguely recall being in a battle where we were several trillion up at one point too. I know that if MoA lost 18 bil you'd pretty much fold, but for most of us that's just an operational cost. Nobody wins them all.

It is peculiar though, if lowsec is where all the good PvPers are at, why don't they win the AT every single year?

Oh I'm not saying lowsec is the home of all skill in eve. Rather, I'm saying there are definite skill differences of individual pilots and fcs between various groups. And that plays out every year in the AT with certain groups being clear favourites over others.
Sure, some individual corps and alliances have more skills than others based on recruitment criteria. If you're recruiting miners, you're hardly going to get the best PvP group. But no area of space is inherently better than any other, and no matter how good you are, you can always lose.

The argument that skill in lowsec is automatically better than nullsec is lunacy.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#6624 - 2014-10-04 16:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Regnag Leppod
Lucas Kell wrote:


And as with my previous post, how come lowsec players don't consistently win AT?


Probably because they are too busy defending their own space, to the extent that they can, and don't have the luxury of intel networks allowing them to test fittings and practice for AT?

edit:gramma
Xenvin
KARNAGE
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#6625 - 2014-10-04 17:00:02 UTC
Greetings, all!

I just wanted to say that I understand why you, CCP, are trying to make these changes, or at least I think I do. However, I just want to add that perhaps instead of implementing all of these travel changes within the next patch perhaps try implementing one or two of the ideas to see how effective it is. And, ya know, how much it actually disturbs the game flow, play, and player base. I myself live in Null and This patch, to me and my alliance, could spell disaster if implemented all at once. With gradual introduction of these time-consuming travel nerfs, I believe it will be easier to tweak to the desired effects with resultant following patches a week passed the initial deployment.

I propose that you start with limiting light years distance traveled as it concerns Jump Bridges, Cyno-Jumps, etc.

If CCP believes that the "Time-sickness" still needs to be added let it be determined after [you] see the response & reaction to adding a less aggressive nerf as previously mentioned.

Thank you for your time!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#6626 - 2014-10-04 17:00:56 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.
You guys may be getting fights, but Razor has decided to deploy to low sec because ~blue donut agreement~ doesn't allow them to get enough pvp in null sec.

So, yeah, when entities decide to fight and have fun then they have fights and have fun. When "The masters of 0.0" blue each other up and make it boring for their members to play game, then subscriptions lapse, and .... This.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6627 - 2014-10-04 17:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eigenvalue
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.


This actually used to be what happened before JF were introduced. Back before JF were introduced people *still* didn't locally produce in null. But they did long boring freighter escorts as a CTA constantly. It was horribly boring and caused null to be a empty wasteland of boredom.

Now realize they're not removing JF from the game, they're just making it harder to reach distant systems. So why would people supplying a market decide to take the most risky possible route? Wouldn't the sov holders just move their base of operations to the most easily accessible logistically? Isn't that simpler than creating a whole home grown industry or flying T1 freighters through gates?

Right now home systems are picked for their military ability to project or proximity to tasty PVE. That calculus doesn't include that much consideration for logistics. The balance of the equation will change slightly, so you'll see more concentration near highsec and much much less dispersion throughout nullsec regions. You'll see calcified and entrenched home systems and empty regions.


1 - I know that it happened before, People what to see it again. Due to the 0.0 sov changes more people are willing to move and live in 0.0 since after changes the possibility to conquer a small place to live even if you are not big as an corp or alliance seens to be possible, specially if people cant project their power in any place of eve in just 1 minute with a cyno chain. Maybe this time for once null will not be completely empty and boring as ****.


You're joking right? So lets say a small power moves into the remote part of a region owned by a strong power. That strong power will have a fully stocked market of high end stuff in their close to highsec hub. They will simply fit up a strong fleet and fly to the weaker small power without supplies and wipe them out. This change doesn't make the dynamic of "small" vs "big" any different at all in a local sense. It just means that powers on one side of the map can't meaningfully interact with powers on the other side of the map.

Quote:

2 - So why logistic players are crying so much? Tbh they should remove JF from the game at all.


Because the proposals are to make their game play even more boring than it already is. No one wants to play a boring game. They like playing eve hence the reason they play eve. They like flying a JF hence the reason they fly a JF. Making it substantially less fun is just kinda mean to people who are already having fun.

And some of it is definitely "but this is how we do things now with how we are logistically laid out I don't want to change." But my point is, the change isn't that hard to accomplish logistically, and it won't dramatically reshape null dynamics. It'll just change from being spread out to be highly concentrated and empty elsewhere.

Quote:

3 - If so the proximity to high sec at least will bring more possibility for small fights to happen


I mean proximity by jump drive not by jump gate. Consider where I live in Catch. E-Y is the closest to highsec by jump drive. But it's actually really far from highsec by gate jumping.

So you're argument seems to fail to understand the two different modes of transportation in eve.

> I see a good oportunity for industry focused characters as well.

See my point about concentrating to a logistically easy system. In that scenario, you're still importing / exporting to Jita. I see no substantial argument that supports this will in any meaningful way impact industry (other than perhaps some inflation for logistically remote nullsec commodities necessary for highsec based production of T2 etc).
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6628 - 2014-10-04 17:02:55 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Yea, cause F1 monkeys have all the skilz, oh wait, you don't even fit your own ships.
I clearly didn't say we do have all the skills. No section of space has an inherently more skilled player base than any other, even if lowsec pilots do like to pretend the are the pinnacle of PvP skill. And again, if they are so skilled, why do they not win AT every single year? They can;t blame this on on blobbing like they blame everything else.

Eh.... I'm pretty sure if you took the AVERAGE person living in sov space (and that includes like, what, 40,000 renters?) and compare it to the average lowsec resident, you'd probly find a bit of a difference in player skill.
Probably, because the only appeal of lowsec is PvP. Faction warfare is there and everything. That still doesn't make lowsec players better at PvP and still doesn't explain why all these self-congratulatory elite PvPers don't seem to be winning AT every year. If they are that good they should just steamroll the entire competition.

At this point you are just trying to move the goalposts until you can find a way of claiming victory. Clearly the original comment wasn't that the average lowsec player is better at PvP than the average nullsec player including non PvPers, it was that lowsec players are supposed better at PvP by default than other players.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6629 - 2014-10-04 17:04:02 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And as with my previous post, how come lowsec players don't consistently win AT?
Probably because they are too busy defending their own space, to the extent that they can, and don't have the luxury of intel networks allowing them to test fittings and practice for AT?
ROFL

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Prince Kobol
#6630 - 2014-10-04 17:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
SanDooD wrote:


But it won't. That's the problem. Revenue should come from new subscriptions, sales of PLEX, etc. It shouldn't come from extortion. Forcing capital pilots to have 28-30 alts will not net them new revenue, because for every new cyno/capital jumper account they get, they will lose an existing player probably. If you think some of the old players won't quit over this, think again.

How many new accounts did they get after B-R battle? How many of those stayed active and are patient enough to wait to get into titan. Do you think these people started playing EVE because they think it's the best MMO out there? They want to be part of the fights like that one. Here comes CCP Nullsec Team to crush their dreams.

My Business Hat tells me that I should keep my existing customers first before I try to get new ones, and extorting more money from my existing customers is not a good customer relationship.




This so bloody much.

CCP thrive on the media attention they get after massive fights. These changes will make damn sure that you will never see a fight like B-R5RB were an estimated $300,000 in ships were lost and over 7,500 people were involved.

Fights like at 6VDT-H were 2591 ships were destroyed including 621 capsules, a fight that effectively killed one of the largest alliances in the game.

The Battle at Asakai can never happen again. A fight that started by a mistake a Titan pilot made. A fight that involved over 3000 people. A fight that cost the parties involved over 700 billion isk.

Each of these fights generate world wide news and not just on gaming websites but places like Wired, Forbes, BBC etc..

These fights is what gets people interested in Eve.

All of this gone...
Almethea
Trans Stellar Express
#6631 - 2014-10-04 17:09:45 UTC
pages 333, see you @ 444

there's so many thing to fix in eve.... and they fix forum ! GJ! but ok i like it !

CCP Fozzie : AFK cloaking, however, is an entirely social form of power

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#6632 - 2014-10-04 17:09:59 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.
You guys may be getting fights, but Razor has decided to deploy to low sec because ~blue donut agreement~ doesn't allow them to get enough pvp in null sec.

So, yeah, when entities decide to fight and have fun then they have fights and have fun. When "The masters of 0.0" blue each other up and make it boring for their members to play game, then subscriptions lapse, and .... This.


And in case you haven't noticed on your login screen, the numbers of players has been down, by quite a bit.

CCP is going to do what they think is in the best interest of the game overall, not for some self serving null carebear.

Get over it.
Operative X10-4
Doomheim
#6633 - 2014-10-04 17:11:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Yea, cause F1 monkeys have all the skilz, oh wait, you don't even fit your own ships.
I clearly didn't say we do have all the skills. No section of space has an inherently more skilled player base than any other, even if lowsec pilots do like to pretend the are the pinnacle of PvP skill. And again, if they are so skilled, why do they not win AT every single year? They can;t blame this on on blobbing like they blame everything else.

Eh.... I'm pretty sure if you took the AVERAGE person living in sov space (and that includes like, what, 40,000 renters?) and compare it to the average lowsec resident, you'd probly find a bit of a difference in player skill.
Probably, because the only appeal of lowsec is PvP. Faction warfare is there and everything. That still doesn't make lowsec players better at PvP and still doesn't explain why all these self-congratulatory elite PvPers don't seem to be winning AT every year. If they are that good they should just steamroll the entire competition.

At this point you are just trying to move the goalposts until you can find a way of claiming victory. Clearly the original comment wasn't that the average lowsec player is better at PvP than the average nullsec player including non PvPers, it was that lowsec players are supposed better at PvP by default than other players.


Low sec pvpers are better individually speaking since they have more fights solo or dual, Null pvpers are better in groups, they have a bigger coordination in operating like that, blobs in 0.0 are more common.

FOREVER PIRATE 07 FLY DANGEROUSLY.

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6634 - 2014-10-04 17:12:14 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
SanDooD wrote:


But it won't. That's the problem. Revenue should come from new subscriptions, sales of PLEX, etc. It shouldn't come from extortion. Forcing capital pilots to have 28-30 alts will not net them new revenue, because for every new cyno/capital jumper account they get, they will lose an existing player probably. If you think some of the old players won't quit over this, think again.

How many new accounts did they get after B-R battle? How many of those stayed active and are patient enough to wait to get into titan. Do you think these people started playing EVE because they think it's the best MMO out there? They want to be part of the fights like that one. Here comes CCP Nullsec Team to crush their dreams.

My Business Hat tells me that I should keep my existing customers first before I try to get new ones, and extorting more money from my existing customers is not a good customer relationship.




This so bloody much.

CCP thrive on the media attention they get after massive fights. These changes will make damn sure that you will never see a fight like B-R5RB were an estimated $300,000 in ships were lost and over 7,500 people were involved.

Fights like at 6VDT-H were 2591 ships were destroyed including 621 capsules, a fight that effectively killed one of the largest alliances in the game.

The Battle at Asakai can never happen again. A fight that started by a mistake a Titan pilot made. A fight that involved over 3000 people. A fight that cost the parties involved over 700 billion isk.

Each of these fights generate world wide news and not just on gaming websites but places like Wired, Forbes, BBC etc..

These fights is what gets people interested in Eve.

All of this gone...

If it doesn't go by way of mechanics, it'll go by way of stagnation. Take your pick.
Prince Kobol
#6635 - 2014-10-04 17:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.
You guys may be getting fights, but Razor has decided to deploy to low sec because ~blue donut agreement~ doesn't allow them to get enough pvp in null sec.

So, yeah, when entities decide to fight and have fun then they have fights and have fun. When "The masters of 0.0" blue each other up and make it boring for their members to play game, then subscriptions lapse, and .... This.


And in case you haven't noticed on your login screen, the numbers of players has been down, by quite a bit.

CCP is going to do what they think is in the best interest of the game overall, not for some self serving null carebear.

Get over it.


What.. you mean the self serving null carebears that have been telling CCP for the last 3 years that Sov Mechanics were horribly broken.

That Capital Fleets need to die.

That null sec Industry needs to be vastly improved.

That most of null sec is not worth fighting for?

Look, I am not a fan of The Mittani but back in 2011 when he was Chairman of the CSM he was literally screaming at CCP that null sec was horribly broken and look what happened...
Gwailar
Doomheim
#6636 - 2014-10-04 17:14:19 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
As someone who remembers the days of freighter convoys, regional wars, 100 man battleship fights that were coordinated and maneuvered, the harsh unforgiving teeth gritting game that was Eve Online I finally, FINALLY have hope that CCP is breathing life anew into this game.

Eve is NOT your epeen meter. Eve is NOT about instant force projection, unabated losses without risk, rental empires without effort. Eve is supposed to BE harsh! So for all of you spoiled space brats crying that clawed to the top to sit fat and lazy upon your throne of untold billions and capital toys to only one day find that you don't control anything, that the environment and harshness of New Eden is coming back to kick you in the ass I say good riddance!

CCP don't you DARE back down or give into the kicking and screaming of those who are now afraid. They fear change to their Empires, their houses made of glass that one day someone would dare to throw a stone and have the whole frail illusion come crashing down.

Fix SOV. Implement these changes. Make Eve what it used to be. Unforgiving. Harsh. Skill based. Risky.

Finally welcome to Eve Online everyone. Enjoy the ride.


Ooo. The fire!
I like it.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6637 - 2014-10-04 17:15:53 UTC
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Low sec pvpers are better individually speaking since they have more fights solo or dual, Null pvpers are better in groups, they have a bigger coordination in operating like that, blobs in 0.0 are more common.
Total bull. I've seen plenty of solo and dual fights in null, and plenty of "got tackle bring friends quick!" fights in lowsec. One of the main reasons I stopped doing FW on my alt is that the vast majority of situations were either double stabbed frigates camping plexes or tackle bait with plenty of friends on standby. Not to mention that someone being in null now doesn't mean they've only ever been in null

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Operative X10-4
Doomheim
#6638 - 2014-10-04 17:16:45 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
As someone who remembers the days of freighter convoys, regional wars, 100 man battleship fights that were coordinated and maneuvered, the harsh unforgiving teeth gritting game that was Eve Online I finally, FINALLY have hope that CCP is breathing life anew into this game.

Eve is NOT your epeen meter. Eve is NOT about instant force projection, unabated losses without risk, rental empires without effort. Eve is supposed to BE harsh! So for all of you spoiled space brats crying that clawed to the top to sit fat and lazy upon your throne of untold billions and capital toys to only one day find that you don't control anything, that the environment and harshness of New Eden is coming back to kick you in the ass I say good riddance!

CCP don't you DARE back down or give into the kicking and screaming of those who are now afraid. They fear change to their Empires, their houses made of glass that one day someone would dare to throw a stone and have the whole frail illusion come crashing down.

Fix SOV. Implement these changes. Make Eve what it used to be. Unforgiving. Harsh. Skill based. Risky.

Finally welcome to Eve Online everyone. Enjoy the ride.


Ooo. The fire!
I like it.


That's gold +1

FOREVER PIRATE 07 FLY DANGEROUSLY.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6639 - 2014-10-04 17:19:17 UTC
After listening to the PL chat with EVE-UNI, I wonder how my sov warfare 6-12 months from now is going to look like the Cal-Gal FW warzone over the past 1-2 years.

1. Logistics wins wars.
2. Geography matters.
3. ATTRITION COUNTS.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Squilo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6640 - 2014-10-04 17:22:06 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
I Like this changes a lot, And i use JB,s Caps daily. this will generate a loot of fun fights and titan gate caps ^^ Pirate


Only JF's Nerf is bad .... some systems are so so so deep, like drone regions. amount of cynos needed will be over 9000.

and kill the residents :<

i don't think there is a real need to nerf the JF's in any way.


Other than that SUper cool ^^ i sure will get a titan now my self lol Cool



True :)
+1 Like