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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Author
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON.
Get Off My Lawn
#6521 - 2014-10-04 14:55:38 UTC
And another thing came up my mind with all those changes.
We play eve in our free time.
Now we should wait and sped our freetime haveing less fun and just idle for some kind of cooldown or by boaring travelling by gates?

CCP - in the small amount of time I have - I want to play this game and have time todo stuff! I don't want to move every second day a jf a jump and wait for the cooldown and fly the cyno around - that much time I do not have!

Please consider this!

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"A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead."

BuddyKnife
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6522 - 2014-10-04 14:56:44 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:


http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats

So numbers seem to give your claim the lie. All the top activity is going on in null - and HERO is generating tons of content in sov null. All this and more with everyone power projecting at once into our space. Oh noes! People can play with us and not just be isolated into their part of the map!!!!!!!



A lie? Did you even look at the link you posted? According to those stats, there's exactly two null regions with over 1K kills, when in empire space there's 9 regions. Note the NPC null regions as well.

Empire top ten: 17716 kills
Null top ten: 6806 kills

Yes, currently nullsec is dead.


Why are you commenting on the status of null when you only pvp in wormholes and lowsec?
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#6523 - 2014-10-04 14:56:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Also, it only takes two brain cells rubbing together to realize black frog's services just became significantly more valuable to the average player.
Oh, where on the dev blog did it state that black frog were unaffected by this change? They've already stated in their thread that the likelihood is that they will only be able to service the border NPC null regions, and that prices and times for delivery will be considerably up. The good news is that there will likely be some cheap JF pilots going, so us major null coalitions can buy a bunch of extras on the cheap to spread out our fatigue.


Based on this person's other reply to my post I would not be straining too hard to expect accuracy here.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6524 - 2014-10-04 14:59:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Yeah, probably. But it will still change, which is at least an improvement on the status quo. And given that this is only the first of at least 3 changes, this is probably a good thing.
I just think it's crippling the wrong group.

PotatoOverdose wrote:
How many "small" null groups are their really? There are maybe 4 in the galactic east, and a handful in the galactic west. The ones in the east occasionally poke someone and do something minutely noticeable. The ones on the western half mostly farm in stain.

IMO the notion that smaller entities will be able to "take" sov while the two large coalitions still exist is a red herring that people use when they don't like a particular set of changes. "But think of the little guy" my-ass.
Very true. So that being the case, who is this benefiting? Or is it change just so that something has changed, regardless of who or what is affected? Seems a bit pointless in that regard. Overall I think the game will become slightly more tedious and slightly less fun.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#6525 - 2014-10-04 15:01:30 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Honestly, I just can't wait for them to be released, the main null sov holders to not change at all, and in fact defend themselves easier and fight each other less, then the screams of "IT DIDN'T WORK CCP" coming from all the idiots that think this is going to change null. It's going to be amazing.
Its often I agree with Lucas but he has it bang on.

That is thing, people who traditionally oppose each are agreeing that this will only make things worse.
- massive nerf to capital ship power projection
- nerf to structure HP
- occupancy based sov

Everyone except the dumbest ones see that these will certainly change nullsec.
Change, yes. Change in the way many of the anti-null guys seem to be expecting, not so much. People want null to be more hostile and less stable, with space actually being fought over and changing hands. These changes are more likely to turn the core systems of null coalitions into impenetrable fortresses and rental income into "pay us to leave you alone for the next month". It's certainly not going to pave the way for small alliances to take over portions of null and not get crushed into a fine paste while trying.


Well, even that would be better than the currently impenetrable fortresses spanning the whole null map.

What if these changes together make nullsec an interesting area of space again for EVE players? Don't you realize that currently nobody gives a **** about sov null, all the PVP players are in lowsec, NPC null, wormholes and hisec. Dullsec has a terrible reputation of 99% barren wastelands only populated by bots or botlike nullbears, and 1% by hotdropping alarm-clock neckbeards. Bots don't go to war, nullbears only when forced, and nobody wants to play with the neckbeards.

Give the non-nullseccers a glimmer of hope for change, and maybe they come. Game mechanic changes just drive the social aspects of EVE, and these are nearly impossible to predict.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6526 - 2014-10-04 15:02:14 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
But 98% percent of you doomsayers werent around to see how good this game was prior to power projection, so I suppose you can only be faulted so much for your lack of vision and inability to think outside of the current meta.
And if they were going back in time and not implementing force projection, you might have a point. They are reducing it, not removing it, and they are doing so at a time when the vast majority of null is held by 2 groups who are heavily fortified. It won't just be the same as old EVE.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6527 - 2014-10-04 15:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Lucas Kell wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:
How many "small" null groups are their really? There are maybe 4 in the galactic east, and a handful in the galactic west. The ones in the east occasionally poke someone and do something minutely noticeable. The ones on the western half mostly farm in stain.

IMO the notion that smaller entities will be able to "take" sov while the two large coalitions still exist is a red herring that people use when they don't like a particular set of changes. "But think of the little guy" my-ass.
Very true. So that being the case, who is this benefiting? Or is it change just so that something has changed, regardless of who or what is affected? Seems a bit pointless in that regard. Overall I think the game will become slightly more tedious and slightly less fun.

In the short term, conflicts will arise due to the fact that the entire topology of new eden changed overnight. That this will happen is a certainty. Predicting the medium to long term is difficult because CCP still has at least 2 major changes planned of which we know quite little.

Less certain but still possible: the priorities of large alliances between local industry and logistics may shift as importing from Jita via JF is no longer the magic silver bullet that solves all of your supply problems. Local industry and mining provide additional targets for local entities.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#6528 - 2014-10-04 15:08:23 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:


Why are you commenting on the status of null when you only pvp in wormholes and lowsec?


Because that's where all the PVP currently is. Maybe I'd be interested in null if something actually happened there? Think about it.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6529 - 2014-10-04 15:09:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
But 98% percent of you doomsayers werent around to see how good this game was prior to power projection, so I suppose you can only be faulted so much for your lack of vision and inability to think outside of the current meta.
And if they were going back in time and not implementing force projection, you might have a point. They are reducing it, not removing it, and they are doing so at a time when the vast majority of null is held by 2 groups who are heavily fortified. It won't just be the same as old EVE.


Durrr, you dont say?
Because everyone totally thought it was possible to turn back a clock Roll

Nothing you said precludes the likelihood these changes are moving in the right direction

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

davet517
Raata Invicti
#6530 - 2014-10-04 15:09:33 UTC
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want". It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.

One thing is certain in a game like this. Stasis is bad. The current mechanics + player culture = two coalitions controlling a map that, for most 0.0 dwellers, is a sea of blue as far as the eye can see. In other words, the current mechanics have played themselves out, and this is the result. So, they theory-crafted some changes that they believe will shake things up. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. It'll have to play out, and what happens will be the results of thousands of individual decisions that players make about how to adapt.

Nobody knows for sure what will happen. That's a hell of a lot better, when you're playing a game, than knowing for sure what will happen. Interesting times ahead.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6531 - 2014-10-04 15:12:16 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want". It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.

One thing is certain in a game like this. Stasis is bad. The current mechanics + player culture = two coalitions controlling a map that, for most 0.0 dwellers, is a sea of blue as far as the eye can see. In other words, the current mechanics have played themselves out, and this is the result. So, they theory-crafted some changes that they believe will shake things up. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. It'll have to play out, and what happens will be the results of thousands of individual decisions that players make about how to adapt.

Nobody knows for sure what will happen. That's a hell of a lot better, when you're playing a game, than knowing for sure what will happen. Interesting times ahead.


No you dont get it, the world is ending!!!!

These changes will simultaneously do nothing and ruin errything!!!!1 Lol

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Prince Kobol
#6532 - 2014-10-04 15:12:16 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want". It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.

One thing is certain in a game like this. Stasis is bad. The current mechanics + player culture = two coalitions controlling a map that, for most 0.0 dwellers, is a sea of blue as far as the eye can see. In other words, the current mechanics have played themselves out, and this is the result. So, they theory-crafted some changes that they believe will shake things up. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. It'll have to play out, and what happens will be the results of thousands of individual decisions that players make about how to adapt.

Nobody knows for sure what will happen. That's a hell of a lot better, when you're playing a game, than knowing for sure what will happen. Interesting times ahead.



We do know what will happen, yourselves, CFC and NC will keep the agreements you have and life will continue as normal.

I have seen a number of posts from PL members supporting this and I am not surprised as it makes you even stronger.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#6533 - 2014-10-04 15:13:10 UTC
Monasucks wrote:
And another thing came up my mind with all those changes.
We play eve in our free time.
Now we should wait and sped our freetime haveing less fun and just idle for some kind of cooldown or by boaring travelling by gates?

CCP - in the small amount of time I have - I want to play this game and have time todo stuff! I don't want to move every second day a jf a jump and wait for the cooldown and fly the cyno around - that much time I do not have!

Please consider this!

This is just horrible. I hate how they made it so my character can only fly carriers and nothing else. I have no options like getting into a different ship after I take 10 minutes to move my Dread the intended strategic jump range of 10 LY.

Prince Kobol
#6534 - 2014-10-04 15:13:24 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
davet517 wrote:
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want". It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.

One thing is certain in a game like this. Stasis is bad. The current mechanics + player culture = two coalitions controlling a map that, for most 0.0 dwellers, is a sea of blue as far as the eye can see. In other words, the current mechanics have played themselves out, and this is the result. So, they theory-crafted some changes that they believe will shake things up. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. It'll have to play out, and what happens will be the results of thousands of individual decisions that players make about how to adapt.

Nobody knows for sure what will happen. That's a hell of a lot better, when you're playing a game, than knowing for sure what will happen. Interesting times ahead.


No you dont get it, the world is ending!!!!

These changes will simultaneously do nothing and ruin errything!!!!1 Lol


Yss, it will not change the power that current entities have, it will not give smaller entities a chance to take Sov and it will only hurt smaller groups
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6535 - 2014-10-04 15:13:49 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
davet517 wrote:
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want". It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.

One thing is certain in a game like this. Stasis is bad. The current mechanics + player culture = two coalitions controlling a map that, for most 0.0 dwellers, is a sea of blue as far as the eye can see. In other words, the current mechanics have played themselves out, and this is the result. So, they theory-crafted some changes that they believe will shake things up. Maybe they will, and maybe they won't. It'll have to play out, and what happens will be the results of thousands of individual decisions that players make about how to adapt.

Nobody knows for sure what will happen. That's a hell of a lot better, when you're playing a game, than knowing for sure what will happen. Interesting times ahead.


No you dont get it, the world is ending!!!!

These changes will simultaneously do nothing and ruin errything!!!!1 Lol


So are you flipping your opinion or keeping it?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6536 - 2014-10-04 15:14:30 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Yss, it will not change the power that current entities have, it will not give smaller entities a chance to take Sov and it will only hurt smaller groups

What smaller entities are you talking about, exactly?
Prince Kobol
#6537 - 2014-10-04 15:15:55 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Yss, it will not change the power that current entities have, it will not give smaller entities a chance to take Sov and it will only hurt smaller groups

What smaller entities are you talking about, exactly?


All these smaller entities that people think are suddenly going to magically appear out of nowhere and do something
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6538 - 2014-10-04 15:16:36 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Well, even that would be better than the currently impenetrable fortresses spanning the whole null map.
It certainly would, but at the cost of making logisitcs an absolute nightmare and drag out travel into an enormous chore, I'd say it's nto worth it. Anyone that isn't part of a coalition simply won't have the organisation to realistically make it in null, especially since we'll be bored and won;t be able to fight PL/NC as much.

Aiyshimin wrote:
What if these changes together make nullsec an interesting area of space again for EVE players? Don't you realize that currently nobody gives a **** about sov null, all the PVP players are in lowsec, NPC null, wormholes and hisec. Dullsec has a terrible reputation of 99% barren wastelands only populated by bots or botlike nullbears, and 1% by hotdropping alarm-clock neckbeards. Bots don't go to war, nullbears only when forced, and nobody wants to play with the neckbeards.
If they want to make sov null more interesting, it needs to be easier to take, harder to hold and worth more to keep. These changes will mean that it will be harder to take, easier to hold and worth the same. Not exactly the ideal shake up. And to be fair, the entire game is botlike bears and hotdropping (or similar).

Aiyshimin wrote:
Give the non-nullseccers a glimmer of hope for change, and maybe they come. Game mechanic changes just drive the social aspects of EVE, and these are nearly impossible to predict.
Yes, then they will come, we'll roflstomp them into the ground, and they'll leave again whining that null is too hard to join in and that coalitions need to die. It will be a lot of change and a lot of negativity and I imagine not a shortness of dropped subs, all to arrive at what we've already got but taking longer.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Afton Beda
CONSORTIVM MERCATVRA ARMORVM IMPERIALIS
#6539 - 2014-10-04 15:16:55 UTC
I have no idea were this new wind came from that is blowing inside the walls of CCP. It is a new wind (storm). It is however not a positive one.

I have seen EVE in it's glory days. With a huge player base. Top on the cluster of >65K players (2013-05-05 19:09:04). This is these days decimated to just above 50% of that record. The last 24 hours there were 34,611 (2014-10-03 19:15:13).

Since 2013-05-05 there were multiple chances some good, some bad according to your play style. However it stays a fact that since that date the player base was decimated. Now your communicating you like to change long distance traveling. On page http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/long-distance-travel-changes-inbound/ you go into to full detail.

If you read that article you will notice that it is not regarding long distance traveling. That is just 1 part. The other part is limiting the times and the time within your going to be allowed to jump. We will get our fatigue and your cooldown timer. This does include all jumps. Not only capital ships but also black ops. Because every time you use any jump drive, jump bridge or jump portal (hereafter all treated as "a jump"; note that this does NOT include stargate travel!), you will accumulate jump fatigue.
So it conflicts with the flexibility of the game. It destroys one of the most fun part of the game due to it's limitations overall.

Reasons given:

Why this?/Why now?

- Nullsec is stagnant and needs a change. This is the first of many steps in our plan.

There are so many changes possible to change that. This change is not a validated one.

- Big fights are cool, but they’re crowding out more accessible and more frequent smaller ones.

Big fights have nothing todo with addressed changes. Big fights need many players so it is player based.

- These changes have positive implications for people not involved in sovereignty warfare, for example making use of capitals in lowsec less risky.

This is absolute BS (sorry!) But it is... There is nothing so dangerous as low-sec. These changes will have no influence on the scale of how dangerous low-sec is.

- We expect the impact of these changes to be emergent, and as a consequence are unpredictable and will take a while to develop on TQ. This plays into our longer-term plans, as you’ll see in a second!

Finally some reasoning. Give a token of intelligence and skip this please.


In appendix A you state following example

...At this point his total distance traveled is 17.51 LY, leaving him with 37.04 LY to go. He looks at his map, and finds a 40-route jump through nullsec to get to the same destination, and figuring two minutes per system, his warp travel time for the whole journey is a bit over half the cooldown for his next jump. He decides to fly there directly rather than trying to jump any further.

Of course people will use there Capital or even Super Capital to jump 40 jumps through lowsec by normal gates....

Did you ever play EVE? Did you ever own a Capital or Super Capital?

Please wake up out of your alternate reality and give us why we start playing this game.

My 2 cents.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#6540 - 2014-10-04 15:18:40 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Yss, it will not change the power that current entities have, it will not give smaller entities a chance to take Sov and it will only hurt smaller groups
How can it hurt something that doesn't exist in null sec?