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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6261 - 2014-10-04 02:51:01 UTC
Ariel Marquette wrote:
Implement an NPC logistics service. Let us pay Interbus to move whatever we want, wherever we want. Continue with the jump drive nerf as planned. Then people won't get instant combat teleportation all around New Eden, but they won't have any room to mask their gripe as being about logistics hassles.



You would have a point if the carrier wasn't used about 90% of the time by line members to move fit ships, its the best tool for the job.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#6262 - 2014-10-04 02:52:22 UTC
Faith Marr wrote:
CCP please reduce the amount of fatigue for blops gangs (anything that jumps to covert cyno except for T3s). A gang can only hotdrop twice per night with the current changes. Otherwise the changes are good.

Don't make any exceptions for jump bridges or cave into more "complicated" solutions, they are being suggested so it can be abused.


IF JBs stay nerfed with fatigue your BLOPs should be nerfed as well, same with your range. IF 5LY is going to be the new standard for us all to suffer with BLOPs should suffer the same fate.

Silly you wanting to have your cake and eat it too, I bet all you do is sit around cloaked all day waiting for someone to do something. Cloaky Camping and blops go hand in hand. Cloaky Camping is an abusive broken mechanic so your statement is invalid. The proposed changes lower the threat of cloaky camping by lowering the rate of hotdrops available by hostiles. While being a minor *fix* to the longstanding cloaky camping issues its done so in one of the most terrible ways imaginable.

that being said this 5LY thing is bull**** don't agree with any of it.

Fatigue on JBs means JBs may as well be removed. There really is nothing wrong with JBs being fatigue free. Allows subcap movement within borders while still having to travel from system to system between bridges unlike a titan bridge daisy chain that can take you cross country through hostile territory. JBs are known strategic assets that can be watched, blockaded, or disabled.

Anyway if the fatigue system is going to work it needs to be a variable rate depending on the class of ship or type of travel IMO. And should be capped much lower than CCP has already said they will cap it at. Silly timers and exponential calculations with a set tick rate for cooldown is broken.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#6263 - 2014-10-04 02:56:25 UTC
This thread hit maximum rage fatigue

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Unbridled Hate
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6264 - 2014-10-04 02:58:55 UTC
Congrats CCP, you've yet again alienated the long-time players! If these changes are implemented, and turn out to be as bad as I think they are, I'm sure you'll find a lot of people un-subbing their accounts. I love capital ship warfare, but with these changes, we are highly unlikely to ever see any good capital fights. Hopefully the last 8.5 years I've spent playing wasn't for nothing! I'd hate to see CCP do something this stupid and ruin this game.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6265 - 2014-10-04 03:04:19 UTC
The only fatigue I'll be experiencing is from cracking the whip on highsec slaves

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6266 - 2014-10-04 03:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
What is the expected impact on super capital production? I know a lot of people buy their low end ores from highsec and I'm curious to no if the proliferation is going to reduce.
Blastil
Aideron Robotics
#6267 - 2014-10-04 03:13:30 UTC
1st: Thank you.

2nd: Couple thoughts:


1) why exponential growth? Why not a formula that converges on some large number? So instead of x^2 its more like sqrt(x) shaped? You get a similar effect (multiple jumps leads to a major slow down in distance traveled over time) and it does so at a rapid rate, but that rate caps out after a while and you don't run the risk of ruining characters at all (even if this is unlikely). At some point you'll just converge on some large number like 48 hours or something. It will also make it so you get there faster, making short one or two jump trips more likely.

2) Why not extend JF range to 10km, but reduce the bonus for their timers? It seems like it might solve some of the logistical concerns people have without breaking the mechanic. Is this something that has been considered? and if so, why was it shot down?
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#6268 - 2014-10-04 03:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Mabata
Quote:
M T Steph wrote:
( Also quoting Mabata, jessica, and company )Whats next CCP? Capital ships in hi sec?

Why not?


Because imagine marmites or other high sec mercs with nuetral triage plus refits if they know their shiny is going to die[/quote]
Neutral triage at jita undock doesn't sound like a very clever idea tbh. Everyone would undock dreads to shoot the suspect carrier that now can't dock for five minutes.
[/quote]

Your assuming the common jita rabble have dreadnoughts or would want to undock them and risk it being a trap, since supers could be high sec too. Generally this is an all around bad idea so they should stay in low/null/j-space
[/quote]
Supers should be banned from losec, too Bear[/quote]

I really would have no feelings which way or the other about that

Edit ( dem broken quotes )

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#6269 - 2014-10-04 03:27:01 UTC
Rowells wrote:
What is the expected impact on super capital production? I know a lot of people buy their low end ores from highsec and I'm curious to no if the proliferation is going to reduce.


A lot of people will probably stop building them because now ater being fixed they are even more useless and less desirable than they were before, that your impact. As for the actual construction of them , yeah same boat really since moving the goods will be so much harder and reprocessed modules was nerfed too

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Riddari Prowler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6270 - 2014-10-04 03:37:17 UTC
Hey, I have no issues with these changes happening to jump capable combat ships, it is the issues with it affecting jump freighters. I say AWESOME as far as it being put towards the combat ships, but Jump freighters?? Come on that is completely ridiculous. So yes logistics is a big issue as well as a non-com aspect of the game. Not everyone uses jump freighters for supplying wars. Believe it or not people actually use them to haul stuff to market or to an indy alt for building stuff to put on market. Logistics is a part of the game some people actually enjoy doing.
Dalto Bane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6271 - 2014-10-04 03:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalto Bane
I intentionally waited before opening this thread. I knew that it would extract some moisture from a few tear ducts, and I, for one, was not disappointed!!

Let's get one thing straight, I fly Carriers, JF's, and Blops. I primarily live in Null although I have been have been more active in empire the past few weeks due to "business".

I don't understand what all the fuss is about with the jump fatigue and lowering the range of jump drives. I mean I have literally been forced feed these force projection rants, which have increased exponentially the past year or so. I have read and hear time and time from the opinions of players about CCP's inability and/or unwilliness to address issues in this wonderful game, most notable being this term "force projection". Well, guess what? They are doing something about it, but as with most things that happen in this community, "Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't".

I do believe that Blops should be relooked, as in possibly having their fatigue lowered, as to be in line with their typical role, and provide contrast among the other Jump capable ships out there, HOWEVER, if it's not and I gotta wait out a timer then that is just another obstacle that must be overcome in developing the strategy of how muh' fleet gets all assassins creed on yours and then get out before your day late and a dollar short fleet gets spun up.

So if you are one of the pilots that can't adapt to change, and since you clearly feel that these changes will make jump capable ships worthless, I will take them off of your hands and I won't charge you a penny.

Drops Mic

Disiri Skai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6272 - 2014-10-04 03:57:23 UTC
So while everyone else bitches and moans about the changes in the capital area...has ccp though about the fact that this will officially kill Battleship fleets.

They warp slow, align slow and don't even pack the punch the much faster T3s. They are already a rare sight in the battlefield. With the need to travel through gates cruisers will become even more prevalent than now. Plus with the JF nerfs space will be at a premium...and you can bring 10 cruisers for every battleship.



I am all for capital changes but please for the love of god don't kill battleships, give them something to make the effort of bringing them somewhere worth it.
Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
#6273 - 2014-10-04 04:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Busta Rock
I have a somewhat different suggestion as to how force projection and jump fatigue might be approached. hear me out:

instead of nerfing all combat capitals to 5LY at max skills, leave their ranges untouched. Let the Jump fatigue mechanic be a modifier that directly reduces the effective value of the pilot's JDC skill level, with the possibility of the effective value going negative, whereby a given ship will suffer a shorter jump range than if the pilot had no JDC skill points. this reduction would begin after the SECOND jump... the amount of reduction in JDC = number of jumps/2. of course, there would be a recovery time to get the effective JDC back up to normal, which would be equal to the distance jumped in minutes, is cumulative and includes the distance of the FIRST jump. regen time would be modified by ship class, with blops and JFs having the fastest recovery times, and titans the slowest.

example... nidhoggur pilot with JDC 5 makes a round trip of 20 LY in 2 jump... out and back. the first jump incurs a regen time of 10 minutes (in this example, lets assume a ship class modifier of 1 for simplicity), but JDC is unaffected on the first leg. he stops at the outbound destination to pickup some ships for transport, taking 2 minutes (reducing regen to 8 minutes), and immediately jumps back to the start system... regen time goes to 18 minutes, and his effective JDC skill drops to 4. if he makes enough jumps in a short period of time, he could end up in a situation where his JDC skill drops below zero, and his effective range becomes a small fraction of what it would normally be for a substantial (but not insane) amount of time. bridging ships would be affected similarly for every ship they bridge, the distance, and the class of each, but as most such bridges are of much smaller ships, the cumulative penalties would be manageable with appropriate modifiers for the ship classes.

here's the kicker though: I would actually prefer it if the JDC penalty were applied to the HULL and not the pilot himself, so as to discourage the use of ferry alts (treat it as a kind of overheating damage that subsides over time, but doesnt prevent trading a ship in station). also, jump fatigue could be used to negatively affect other aspects of ship performance in much the same way as drug side-effects. I would even consider the potential for a misjump to an unintended destination system anywhere within the ships maximum JDC range as a possible risk of a negative JDC value (the lulz that could be had... drunk nidhoggur pilot lands somewhere he NEVER intended).

I think this approach would be a much better choice for making eve a bit bigger, while not making capitals completely useless in long-range force projection - you can still travel substantial distances rapidly, but go out too far, too fast and you'll be REALLY feeling it on the trip back.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#6274 - 2014-10-04 04:19:27 UTC
I've come full circle on the blops several times. I guess my underlying concern is that they become lightyear shuttles capable of moving pilots across eve the same way that is prevalent now. If they get some relief to maintain that form of pvp, there has to be some mechanism to prevent the lightyear shuttle service.

My current suggestion is run the fatigue timer, but don't apply it to jump cool down time. Apply the timer to being able to enter a capital ship. So you can blops until your heart is content, but you can't race across new eden in one and hop in an archon. Nothing can reset the timer prematurely (no med clone, jump clone, remap or anything else can reset the capital ship entry timer) it has to decay per the formula.

Something to that effect. It would be nice to give some form of relief to blops, but it would have to be done w/ a lot of care. And personally, I'd just state up front, if it becomes a workaround for fatigue, we're gonna wonk it w/ a fatigue timer as soon as we're aware of the abuse. And then code in a 'normal fatigue' button you could push at any time.

This is a tough issue for me. I don't like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Sometimes you have to, but it doesn't feel good.


And of course:

cut JF distance down to 3LY max.
deplete moon goo and spread it around (no persistant passive income... come on)
make the black hole graphic do some kind of pucker (yeah it's a wh thing, but it is on my list....)
Get rid of cyno jammers - they are just suck (it's like a child safety seat for a 30 year old)
Give that Baltec guy a job sweeping up (he's pretty much a propaganda has been - he needs a new job)
Take away the passive isk!!!!! Keep at it!!!!
Sibius Aidon
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#6275 - 2014-10-04 04:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibius Aidon
Miyammato Musashi wrote:
You guys just aren't getting it. The game is changing. The problems in null run deep. CCP recognizes this, and for once they are actually going to fix it. Once these changes come to pass what it means to hold space, what it means to live in null, will fundamentally change. You are crying about losing your conception of alliances and nullsec, while at the same time bitching about a fundamentally flawed system. CCP is re-factoring the fundamentals so null can be that great chess board it used to be. This is going to be really GOOD FOR THE GAME! It's actually going to be meaningful again! You'll need to use your head. There's going to be so much opportunity in null. You can't see it because you can't get out of your current paradigm. This change fundamentally changes eve. S*** matters again. Caps are not irrelevant. In fact, they will be more interesting and valuable than ever after this. You null capital carebears (and that's exactly what you are) are just miffed b/c the simplicity of the former system ends here. In a few months, you're going to forget this thread and really start thinking about null again. I'd bet anything on that...


You are absolutely right! This causes localization and makes it much easier for sov holders (that will be able to keep their plot of land) to defend it. Of course this goes against what CCP is trying to do but that's what it is going to happen. The change will also cause demand for mats to build caps to fall, so a lot of high sec industry guys are gonna get kicked in the ***. And this will in turn cause markets to severely inflate. How would you feel about paying T2 prices for a T1 ship? (Ok, maybe it won't be that bad but its gonna get ugly). And when CCP re-introduced Caps to High Sec again? Well, I wonder just how many High Sec corps actually have pilots that can fly caps well? When a 30 man cap fleet shows up to take theirs POS' will they be able to defend against that force?

Whilst this change will be good for us, not so for everyone else. This is a **** idea, period. So by saying this you are shooting your self in the foot once per character you have.
Sato Page
Auctor Illuminatas Infinitum
#6276 - 2014-10-04 04:23:23 UTC
Yes! Tears of joy! If ccp let capitals into highsec I might even resub my carrier alts!
Can't wait to play capital station game with Mr Antisocial!

Dinsdale Pirannha for [u]CEO [/u]of [u]CCP[/u]

Sibius Aidon
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#6277 - 2014-10-04 04:28:15 UTC
Sato Page wrote:
Yes! Tears of joy! If ccp let capitals into highsec I might even resub my carrier alts!
Can't wait to play capital station game with Mr Antisocial!


I would just laugh. Instalock carrier? :).
nintwo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6278 - 2014-10-04 04:28:21 UTC
This update or what ever they choose to call it is horribly laid out. it neutralizes an entire class of ships, it punishes EVERYONE even those who don't PVP in mass hordes of caps. There are a 101 ways they could have achieved the goal of making null less "stagnant" but as normal CCP's way of addressing an issue it go full ******, and think of crap like this.

So as a casual player who does like to use caps and does logistics this whole nerf is a game changer, do not call it a balance or anything other than what it is a NERF.

I am sure this nerf will have several interesting side effects. such as the major power blocks not taking the moon goo or other stuff needed for t2 production to empire. prices will sky rocket, further punishing the average person that is not involved in major power projection.

While I do agree that null sec needs to be messed with every now and then to keep things interestng, this is probably the worst possible way of doing it. I have absoulty no faith that CCP (if they read these) will actualy care about how the player base feels. They have proven that they do not so many times why would this be any different.

For all those rage quiters, good for you, don't pay a company who dosn't provide you the game play you enjoy.

For all those who will stay with the game, good for you I hope many work arounds are found that reduce the effect of these changes. I also hope for the major power blocks destroy the markets by not bowing down and delivering the moon goo that is requred for t2 production. I hope prices sky rocket and many other people decide that the game no longer offers them the style of play they once enjoyed.

what ever ****** in the ccp idea room came up with this and the other retards who said "oh ya that sounds great". I hope many accounts are closed as a result and when it comes time for year end bonuses your names are remembered (I know wishful thinking)

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#6279 - 2014-10-04 04:28:24 UTC
all I want to know is..where the hell are my firesale caps at? Not seeing market slumps or buy/sell going of the hook

All you emo rage quiting players need to keep your promises and firesail your stuff off in the process.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#6280 - 2014-10-04 04:29:58 UTC
Sibius Aidon wrote:
Miyammato Musashi wrote:
You guys just aren't getting it. The game is changing. The problems in null run deep. CCP recognizes this, and for once they are actually going to fix it. Once these changes come to pass what it means to hold space, what it means to live in null, will fundamentally change. You are crying about losing your conception of alliances and nullsec, while at the same time bitching about a fundamentally flawed system. CCP is re-factoring the fundamentals so null can be that great chess board it used to be. This is going to be really GOOD FOR THE GAME! It's actually going to be meaningful again! You'll need to use your head. There's going to be so much opportunity in null. You can't see it because you can't get out of your current paradigm. This change fundamentally changes eve. S*** matters again. Caps are not irrelevant. In fact, they will be more interesting and valuable than ever after this. You null capital carebears (and that's exactly what you are) are just miffed b/c the simplicity of the former system ends here. In a few months, you're going to forget this thread and really start thinking about null again. I'd bet anything on that...


You are absolutely right! This causes localization and makes it much easier for sov holders (that will be able to keep their plot of land) to defend it. Of course this goes against what CCP is trying to do but that's what it is going to happen. The change will also cause demand for mats to build caps to fall, so a lot of high sec industry guys are gonna get kicked in the ***. And this will in turn cause markets to severely inflate. How would you feel about paying T2 prices for a T1 ship? (Ok, maybe it won't be that bad but its gonna get ugly). And when CCP re-introduced Caps to High Sec again? Well, I wonder just how many High Sec corps actually have pilots that can fly caps well? When a 30 man cap fleet shows up to take theirs POS' will they be able to defend against that force?

Whilst this change will be good for us, not so for everyone else. This is a **** idea, period. So by saying this you are shooting your self in the foot once per character you have.


So if I knew this was the only change coming, I might be able to agree with you. Keep in mind, they aren't done here. I would imagine the wrecking ball is going to make several passes on the status quo. A lot of you are getting upset and quitting and it's only round one. At least man up and hang around for the finishing blow.

CCP is just getting started on breaking you game. They aren't done yet.