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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Froozen Ice
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6241 - 2014-10-04 01:51:02 UTC
Teclador wrote:
Red Bluesteel wrote:
CCP if you really do it with these changes, then Eve will be a 100% Dead Game in 6-8 Weeks Attention

The following changes are acceptable for me:

  • Keep all Jump Ranges as they are
  • acceptable Jump fatigue = 2min (Standard) + 30sec per 0.5 Ly
  • after running out of this Cool down, Fatigue must be reseted. No Multiplications with old Fatigues.


e.g. 1:
If you have to travel 3 Max Jumps with an 5/5 skilled Archon (14.624 Ly), your total Fatigue will be 3*(2min+15min) = 51min.

e.g. 2:
If you have to travel 2 Jumps, 1st 10,4 Ly and 2nd 5,8 Ly, your total Fatigue will be: 2min+10,5min and 2min+6min = 20,5min.


I think that should be fair enough to be not an grand total Nurf and to travel even more will not be pain in the ass of a lifetime job.

+1 Best Idea so far


+1 . Pretty good.
Neutron Dreams
Duty.
Brave Collective
#6242 - 2014-10-04 01:52:58 UTC
I sense that a seagull might have been involved in this! especially because i just had my exotic slaves wash my carrier in the nude.... its like a seagull magnet!

that little bit of humor aside, honestly my main concern with this is, how you have just trivialized months of subscription training to get max jump distance ( current) and are nerfing that without an iota of thought or respect to the player's who have spent the time to train for max distance.

I understand huge cap fights, and to a degree i can see some of this as a touch of reality, for example when you are going to fight, your lighter troops can be in place rather quickly, but your heavier armor takes much more time to get in place. I can look at this to some degree of real world military logistics.

But this just does not taste right. I am hoping to see something more balanced in this approach to "improvements" and something with more substance, instead of " hey let's just double nerf everyone ( also, if i remember correctly did they not in a not to long past patch also cause the jumps to require 50 percent more fuel?) I believe that this needs to be balanced before it becomes live code.

This doesn't become a rage quit for me, it just makes me consider a different manner of play. no tears, and just hopes that all the training to make it to 14. some odd light years being cut down to 5 light years (with skills!!) will receive some sort of thought and perhaps some reallocation of skill points, because the value of skill time trained to go 14+ light years certainly is not the same as to be able to go to 5.

I don't really see how this will help remove the stagnation from nullsec but here's to hoping
Gwailar
Doomheim
#6243 - 2014-10-04 01:59:14 UTC
Heofz wrote:
-£630/year just to play "endless jumpgates online"?... yeah no thanks.


1) Umm, endless jump gates pretty much define EVE if you're not in a jump capable ship. I recognized that the first day. If you're not comfortable with jump gates on jump gates, you're playing the wrong game. Amirite?

2) You have to take steps to minimize your travel time. Localizing your infrastructure and losing your expectation to have immediate personal influence on every sector of k-space would be a start.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#6244 - 2014-10-04 02:02:11 UTC
Froozen Ice wrote:
Teclador wrote:
Red Bluesteel wrote:
CCP if you really do it with these changes, then Eve will be a 100% Dead Game in 6-8 Weeks Attention

The following changes are acceptable for me:

  • Keep all Jump Ranges as they are
  • acceptable Jump fatigue = 2min (Standard) + 30sec per 0.5 Ly
  • after running out of this Cool down, Fatigue must be reseted. No Multiplications with old Fatigues.


e.g. 1:
If you have to travel 3 Max Jumps with an 5/5 skilled Archon (14.624 Ly), your total Fatigue will be 3*(2min+15min) = 51min.

e.g. 2:
If you have to travel 2 Jumps, 1st 10,4 Ly and 2nd 5,8 Ly, your total Fatigue will be: 2min+10,5min and 2min+6min = 20,5min.


I think that should be fair enough to be not an grand total Nurf and to travel even more will not be pain in the ass of a lifetime job.

+1 Best Idea so far


+1 . Pretty good.


So your suggestion to ccp who want to break up power projection is to .. not break up power projection at all.
BuddyKnife
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6245 - 2014-10-04 02:02:43 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I've had 5 years of unbroken faith in you CCP. I knew this day would come, I knew it.


Any faith I had went out the window a long time ago. CCP is known for making poor game design decisions at a moments notice with little to no consideration of long term effects. Hell when Dominion was introduced we knew this would happen but did they listen? no...
Tikitina
Doomheim
#6246 - 2014-10-04 02:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikitina
Froozen Ice wrote:
Teclador wrote:
Red Bluesteel wrote:
CCP if you really do it with these changes, then Eve will be a 100% Dead Game in 6-8 Weeks Attention

The following changes are acceptable for me:

  • Keep all Jump Ranges as they are
  • acceptable Jump fatigue = 2min (Standard) + 30sec per 0.5 Ly
  • after running out of this Cool down, Fatigue must be reseted. No Multiplications with old Fatigues.


e.g. 1:
If you have to travel 3 Max Jumps with an 5/5 skilled Archon (14.624 Ly), your total Fatigue will be 3*(2min+15min) = 51min.

e.g. 2:
If you have to travel 2 Jumps, 1st 10,4 Ly and 2nd 5,8 Ly, your total Fatigue will be: 2min+10,5min and 2min+6min = 20,5min.


I think that should be fair enough to be not an grand total Nurf and to travel even more will not be pain in the ass of a lifetime job.

+1 Best Idea so far


+1 . Pretty good.



They don't just want to make it take longer to go places, they want to make it progressively longer to go places beyond 15-20 ly. This allows for quick local defense, but far more costly longer range defense. You will need to make more of an effort to plan your force localization if you want to maintain control beyond that 20 ly radius of your main fleet assets.

They want large organizations to more localize their operations and not be free ranging over the entire map as they are now.

Yes, those who are used to the way it is don't like it but any change that will really change the dynamic will always be met with this type of response.

It will completely change the landscape and make some areas more defensible than others at a fraction of the cost. It gives more strategic shape to the Eve universe that will take up to a year to fully realize.

And it is an interesting initial fix to Power Projection issue without resorting to the removal of Jump Drives completely.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6247 - 2014-10-04 02:04:12 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
hmmm....interesting times ahead of us it seems. I for one did not like the module tiercide....but i didnt come here to post about that.

I read maybe 400 posts, basically saw 3 camps.....the fors, the againsts, and the neutrals(fence straddlers). A lot of nullsecr's raging in here.
Well lets see.....maybe if you had set up your local areas for marketing and industry you would not be raging so hard. Curently most nullsecrs (not all) look down on anybody that doesnt pvp all the time.....and more so those that dont pvp at all. Yet you rat yourself to make Isk? You dont protect your renters for the most part....instead you slave them out, tax them to death, make them wait on you all the time, or expect them to jump the second you snap your fingers. Ok thats fine and dandy....your pvpr's, you buy all you stuff....you dont build it unless its a cap or supercap. And where to you buy your stuff?

You buy it from highsec, then you send your alts or force miners to go there also.....then you assist crusades or lead them yourselves against highsec miners, ratters, and Indy alike. Why? because you have no content in null.
You need kills, you only pvp here because of the meta of being big dog whether your a failure or not at COD or BF4. Except you forgot that EvE isnt a twitch game....it is not an instant gratification game. It is one of strategy and tactics.

Yet you have nothing in place for hardcore local defense, you dont defend or utilize your space (meaning betls, anoms, etc not TCU's and SBU's) let alone have any real concrete programs in place for having a core indy group....the farmers to feed your military and the permanent defense patrols for them to feel safe. So they either move or are told to go to highsec and collect stuff and ship home to null.

Renters.....they utilize space for you...but do it to make ISK or fuel their own ambitions of game play....but they utilize the space and are forced to wait hand and foot for you to get around doing upgrades and stuff for them. What is the rent for? To pay your Sov BIll? screw that....pay it yourself by utilizing more than you do and if you need more space for that to happen then take it or die trying. In my personal experience on another toon in another day....a renter is left to fend for themselves 90% of the time...and if they toe the political party line 100% then maybe they wont be subject to being picked on by members of their overlords.
Logistics..........you would not be crying so much if your indy and miners were based at home rather than Highsec. Stagnation is really your fault. Blue donut is your fault. and the line members....75% of you are nothing more than two-bit thugs that have forgot why you came to EvE in the first place.....thats why your bored, thats why you rail on changes like this....albiet i agree its maybe a wee bit harsher than it needs to be.
I heard a rumor last year....do not know if its true or not I dont load up dotlan to find out....but i heard that Mittani at one time ordered their homeworld areas to be maxed out for indy.
Players need/want that chance to own a piece of the pie....and they can not do it. If this change downsizes the space owned by the Null Lords....then so be it maybe the smaller guys can start to finally take the fight to own that slice. For those that have unsubbed or threatening to.......good EvE dont need you...your a drain on the community anyway with your acidic toxic way of dealing with others just because you can....just because your top of the foodchain. Honestly....it should be the pvpr' that works for the indy guys not the other way around. And i say that last bit because in any other strategy game, RTS or not....its the resource collector, the buildings, etc that are the most important resource....to fuel the military offensive and defensive capability to win.
So nullbears qq about moving stuff around.....a carrier can do it but thats not its purpose its a combat ship....a carrier with sub-caps maybe should be an escort force for a convoy of JF or regular freighters. quit crying about moving stuff from highsec to null....you have enough out there if you moved your assets out there to be 100% self-sufficient. Highsec on the other hand has to rely on wormhole diving or resources from Nullsec for building stuff on the other hand. Have you thought about that strategy? IF you controlled the t2 market to the extreme as in not bringing moon goo or completed ships to highsec....you would totally dominate in that economically and militarily.....because Highsec players would be forced to trade on your terms or really really have a reason to move to null themselves. Of course that would require you leave Highsec with your mains and alts and never look back......might be too much to ask for or for the ragers (logistic nullbears) to think about.


Quoting this for 100% truth
mad manner
PILGRIMS
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#6248 - 2014-10-04 02:06:44 UTC
What the hell are you guys at CCP doing ??!!!!
Seriously Leave the game alone for a while, and let the paying users ( Your Customers) just play the game and enjoy it !
I mean seriously. Who is comming up with thees ideas you guys are implementing ?
EVE was my verry first MMORPG. I have not played any other online game since.
But i have to say. You guys at CCP are making it verry difficult for smaller Alliances to make any worth while progress by going forward with this next set of ideas . Really shorten jump distances and what the hell is this about cool down periods???

Instead of adding ideas to the game that would make it more difficult to play why dont you simply focus and what is already broken in the current game play and let us enjoy playing the game ..
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#6249 - 2014-10-04 02:08:32 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Threadnaught is running low on 'topes... moar posting!


The guy in charge of providing the 'topes ATM is waiting out on his fatigue timer Twisted

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#6250 - 2014-10-04 02:16:27 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I've had 5 years of unbroken faith in you CCP. I knew this day would come, I knew it.



so you gave them 15x12x5 $'s and u really think they care about your insult.. your post says 1 thing.. your subscription says another.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#6251 - 2014-10-04 02:19:57 UTC
Dammit, where's Tippia when one needs a committed "I teach you all" dude Cool


Neutron Dreams wrote:

This doesn't become a rage quit for me, it just makes me consider a different manner of play. no tears, and just hopes that all the training to make it to 14. some odd light years being cut down to 5 light years (with skills!!) will receive some sort of thought and perhaps some reallocation of skill points, because the value of skill time trained to go 14+ light years certainly is not the same as to be able to go to 5.

I don't really see how this will help remove the stagnation from nullsec but here's to hoping



I have that trained as well. I don't feel spoiled.
Why?

Because cut or uncut, it's still the maximum distance possible. That is, the relative advantage has been preserved.

Had it been something done at a loss (like they did for some tiericided ships) then you could really say you lost out. But here your superiority is still the same. The others will still have to train as much as you did AND unlike you, they will never enjoy a long period of time when it was worth 14+ light years.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6252 - 2014-10-04 02:23:57 UTC
OMG!!! I just refreshed the page 3 times and not even one additional post came up.

WE"RE ALL GONNA DIIIIIEEEEE!!!!!
Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#6253 - 2014-10-04 02:24:00 UTC
I ran out of popcorn around page 4.

CEO, Venture Racing

Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6254 - 2014-10-04 02:24:47 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
I ran out of popcorn around page 4.

Then pop some more damn it!

SAVE US ALL!!!
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6255 - 2014-10-04 02:28:02 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Look we all wish we could be as big and tough as you and get a model girlfriend and learn karate too....but the point is people wont have to do the freighter convoys. JFs will still work. Existing methods may no longer be sufficient, but people can solve thay problem.

So you can button up your shirt, we are all impressed by your man boo...errr pecs. Roll

Thanks. They got me my model wife. Karate helped too, of course. *zips up*

And you're right - JFs will still work. Point being that if we could take that stuff 40+ jumps into null through gates, surely you masters of the known universe have the ability to secure a couple chokepoints long enough to get your JFs through in order to make their jump routes more efficient.

I mean come on, it ain't THAT hard. I know you all are used to zero risk comfy living out there, but sheesh.


Wrong.
Neutron Dreams
Duty.
Brave Collective
#6256 - 2014-10-04 02:31:46 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dammit, where's Tippia when one needs a committed "I teach you all" dude Cool


Neutron Dreams wrote:

This doesn't become a rage quit for me, it just makes me consider a different manner of play. no tears, and just hopes that all the training to make it to 14. some odd light years being cut down to 5 light years (with skills!!) will receive some sort of thought and perhaps some reallocation of skill points, because the value of skill time trained to go 14+ light years certainly is not the same as to be able to go to 5.

I don't really see how this will help remove the stagnation from nullsec but here's to hoping



I have that trained as well. I don't feel spoiled.
Why?

Because cut or uncut, it's still the maximum distance possible. That is, the relative advantage has been preserved.

Had it been something done at a loss (like they did for some tiericided ships) then you could really say you lost out. But here your superiority is still the same. The others will still have to train as much as you did AND unlike you, they will never enjoy a long period of time when it was worth 14+ light years.






Fair enough point, but as i said I hope that they will balance this more before publication, and i will just find an alternative method of play. And i have trained for some of those ships that have lost much value *laughs* It is what it is and i shall play on till i don't want to play any more :)
Ariel Marquette
Doomheim
#6257 - 2014-10-04 02:32:51 UTC
Implement an NPC logistics service. Let us pay Interbus to move whatever we want, wherever we want. Continue with the jump drive nerf as planned. Then people won't get instant combat teleportation all around New Eden, but they won't have any room to mask their gripe as being about logistics hassles.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6258 - 2014-10-04 02:33:11 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
hmmm....interesting times ahead of us it seems. I for one did not like the module tiercide....but i didnt come here to post about that.

I read maybe 400 posts, basically saw 3 camps.....the fors, the againsts, and the neutrals(fence straddlers). A lot of nullsecr's raging in here.
Well lets see.....maybe if you had set up your local areas for marketing and industry you would not be raging so hard. Curently most nullsecrs (not all) look down on anybody that doesnt pvp all the time.....and more so those that dont pvp at all. Yet you rat yourself to make Isk? You dont protect your renters for the most part....instead you slave them out, tax them to death, make them wait on you all the time, or expect them to jump the second you snap your fingers. Ok thats fine and dandy....your pvpr's, you buy all you stuff....you dont build it unless its a cap or supercap. And where to you buy your stuff?

You buy it from highsec, then you send your alts or force miners to go there also.....then you assist crusades or lead them yourselves against highsec miners, ratters, and Indy alike. Why? because you have no content in null.
You need kills, you only pvp here because of the meta of being big dog whether your a failure or not at COD or BF4. Except you forgot that EvE isnt a twitch game....it is not an instant gratification game. It is one of strategy and tactics.

Yet you have nothing in place for hardcore local defense, you dont defend or utilize your space (meaning betls, anoms, etc not TCU's and SBU's) let alone have any real concrete programs in place for having a core indy group....the farmers to feed your military and the permanent defense patrols for them to feel safe. So they either move or are told to go to highsec and collect stuff and ship home to null.

Renters.....they utilize space for you...but do it to make ISK or fuel their own ambitions of game play....but they utilize the space and are forced to wait hand and foot for you to get around doing upgrades and stuff for them. What is the rent for? To pay your Sov BIll? screw that....pay it yourself by utilizing more than you do and if you need more space for that to happen then take it or die trying. In my personal experience on another toon in another day....a renter is left to fend for themselves 90% of the time...and if they toe the political party line 100% then maybe they wont be subject to being picked on by members of their overlords.
Logistics..........you would not be crying so much if your indy and miners were based at home rather than Highsec. Stagnation is really your fault. Blue donut is your fault. and the line members....75% of you are nothing more than two-bit thugs that have forgot why you came to EvE in the first place.....thats why your bored, thats why you rail on changes like this....albiet i agree its maybe a wee bit harsher than it needs to be.
I heard a rumor last year....do not know if its true or not I dont load up dotlan to find out....but i heard that Mittani at one time ordered their homeworld areas to be maxed out for indy.
Players need/want that chance to own a piece of the pie....and they can not do it. If this change downsizes the space owned by the Null Lords....then so be it maybe the smaller guys can start to finally take the fight to own that slice. For those that have unsubbed or threatening to.......good EvE dont need you...your a drain on the community anyway with your acidic toxic way of dealing with others just because you can....just because your top of the foodchain. Honestly....it should be the pvpr' that works for the indy guys not the other way around. And i say that last bit because in any other strategy game, RTS or not....its the resource collector, the buildings, etc that are the most important resource....to fuel the military offensive and defensive capability to win.
So nullbears qq about moving stuff around.....a carrier can do it but thats not its purpose its a combat ship....a carrier with sub-caps maybe should be an escort force for a convoy of JF or regular freighters. quit crying about moving stuff from highsec to null....you have enough out there if you moved your assets out there to be 100% self-sufficient. Highsec on the other hand has to rely on wormhole diving or resources from Nullsec for building stuff on the other hand. Have you thought about that strategy? IF you controlled the t2 market to the extreme as in not bringing moon goo or completed ships to highsec....you would totally dominate in that economically and militarily.....because Highsec players would be forced to trade on your terms or really really have a reason to move to null themselves. Of course that would require you leave Highsec with your mains and alts and never look back......might be too much to ask for or for the ragers (logistic nullbears) to think about.


Or they could just leave JF alone and please don't speak about things you don't know what your talking about, You do not have enough of the right resources to produce locally genius. There is a reason we use Jita for central market goods. 5ly jump range is crippling beyond belief, but drink the coolaid.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#6259 - 2014-10-04 02:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
mad manner wrote:
What the hell are you guys at CCP doing ??!!!!
Seriously Leave the game alone for a while, and let the paying users ( Your Customers) just play the game and enjoy it !
I mean seriously. Who is comming up with thees ideas you guys are implementing ?
EVE was my verry first MMORPG. I have not played any other online game since.
But i have to say. You guys at CCP are making it verry difficult for smaller Alliances to make any worth while progress by going forward with this next set of ideas . Really shorten jump distances and what the hell is this about cool down periods???

Instead of adding ideas to the game that would make it more difficult to play why dont you simply focus and what is already broken in the current game play and let us enjoy playing the game ..

You failed to realize that the game has stagmented...
Loosing subs...
Players have been asking for a change,...(be careful what you wish for!)
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6260 - 2014-10-04 02:42:40 UTC
Miyammato Musashi wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Miyammato Musashi wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Lets get into reality here real quick. This update is going through, we mostly know that. Some of us are just hoping, small hope, there is some reason on board with the dev group. there is no reason to wager, it will not be needed. However, I do wager this will reduce subs by at least 10 percent. That is a bet we can make.

I'll take that action. What do you want to bet? I think it'll be a lot less... I wonder if 10% of the player base can even fly jump capable ships. Regardless, caps are still very powerful. They will have new rolls, that's all. I think flying a cap will be more interesting after the change, since the probability of getting hot dropped will be significantly lower. Pods will be more inclined to use caps for smaller skirmishes.


Reduction in modules and ships all across the board will bring a more stale game atmosphere. There was a time you had to jump all over the place to get supplies. It was boring, some of their best ideas was making jump capable ships that could travel a long distance, it really cut down on the tedious and very boring aspect of the game. What is being purposed is a devolution of current modes of supplies. It is an extremely bad idea on so many levels.

My beef isn't so much with the cap fighting ships, although I think its complete BS to punish a group for being better than another. Not sure what the logic is there. My main beef is with destroying the convenience of markets spread all around New Eden.

I hear what you are saying. However, way back when I took my first timid steps into null, you could actually make some decent ISK bringing modules and ships into null and selling them. Today, you can check an outpost and find the prices aren't so far away from Jita. That removes the incentive for newer players to go to null. It's harder to make a living. One pods inconvenience is another pods money maker. Long time null dwellers can afford an extra 20 mil to fit their ship. It's chicken scratch. For a newer player, 20 mil could be a big chunk of cash over the course of a few transactions. It could sustain the losses they face living in null and losing ships all the time. That's just one example. These changes reshape what null is, and what you can do when you get there. It's going to create all kinds of new behaviour, and for the opportunistic there's a lot of new gameplay to be had there. All of this will draw more people into null, I think. Instead of a couple of big alliances dominating all of it with a few ships, opportunities will now pop up because it will be many many smaller ships needed to get things done in null.

We are entering a new null paradigm. This change redefines null. I think people are having a hard time shifting into the new null mode. Yes, things will change a lot. No, the old way of doing things isn't going to fly. ...but isn't that what we want? People have been complaining about null for about as long as I've been playing. Fix null. Fix null. Fix null. A new thread every day for 8 years. They are finally fixing it, and people are upset that it's different? It's fine. The change is happening. You'll thank CCP later, I'd wager.


Good points, however I just don't agree this what it will lead to. Ive already stated what will happen and a lot of areas are going to dry up. I hope im wrong, but I cant think of how I could be.