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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#6141 - 2014-10-03 22:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Ok post count has now exceeded the NANOnerf and disabling of ghost training threadnaught. I said awhile back that I would remind the thread when it has.

Still have a little over 6 thousand posts before it exceeds the Incarna threadnaught however.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6142 - 2014-10-03 22:14:45 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I dunno if anyone has actually calculated it out, but even with infinitely capable servers the speed of light limit might actually even put getting rid of TiDi as complete impossibility so long as all players are not in the same room with the servers.

What the hell?
Speed of light has nothing to do with TiDi.


Not speed of LIGHT, but the SPEED at which light propagates. All electronics and cables deal with pulse wave propagation issues, the pulses traveling through conductors at near the speed of light. Of course optical fiber cables do transactions over light, so it is apples to apples there. :) You have to allow some slop in your tick advancement to allow for fairness of customers at long distance from your servers. Otherwise, people in EU close to the server would have an unfair access advantage over customers in AU or US (for examples). I did say this possible limitation was predicated on infinitely fast servers, but I do wonder how much transmission round trip allowance is built into the server ticks.
I like things written by special people. Tell me another story.

Distance from the servers has precisely zip to do with tidi. Tidi is because the servers can't calculate the outcome of the commands it's processing as fast as it's receiving them, so the ticktime slows to allow the servers longer to process the scenario. If the servers were limitless in capability, tidi would not exist, even if your round trip time was 3 minutes. The individual with the terrible connection would be out of luck and dunked before they get to fire off a command, but the tickrate would continue as normal. Strictly speaking, people on crappy connections already would suffer a disadvantage, but the way EVE is designed, low level lag has minimal impact as you tend to start and stop things rather than firing off continuous streams of real time commands, like playing an FPS with 1500 ping vs someone with 20.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Vulxanis Viceroy
Offworld Trading Company
Khimi Harar
#6143 - 2014-10-03 22:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulxanis Viceroy
I find it interesting that about 90% of those that are protesting these changes are from the big power blocs or nullsec in general.

Maybe this will actually force you to play the game, rather than decide the fate of the cluster by only bothering to log in every now and then. If this is too much of an issue, then CCP can tweak this somewhat.

I think the concept is sound, however. It's definitely something to work with, and it makes it less easy for large coalitions to have these vast empires.

Remember, you will eventually be able to build your own gates, making your own edits to the New Eden map. There are ways to get around it, and if it really is as bad as you are all thinking it is, CCP can make minor edits. Believe it or not, they are trying to make things better.

I do find the pod express idea frustrating, but it's not unreasonable. If they could lower the limit to 4-6 months instead of a year, that would be nicer. Treat it like attributes and give people something like 2 extra moves per year, if nothing else. It's not game breaking, even though it is frustrating.

That being said, I say this to the same nullseccers who are always telling people to suck it up when the changes are made to hisec.

They finally got around to you.

Harden the **** up.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4fanm8/eve_in_a_nutshell_and_how_to_crack_it/

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Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6144 - 2014-10-03 22:16:20 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

I guess all those successful freighter escorts everyone used to have to do before jump freighters were introduced were everyone's imagination.

Chronologically, before Jump Freighters, people were hauling goods on industrials, stuffed into carrier hangars...

And yet, we still did freighter convoys, all the way out to the dronelands from Molden Heath, successfully, several times.

But hey, nullsec pilots were real manly men back then, who did what was needed even when it was difficult. We were hard men, and we made hard choices. Unlike the namby pamby risk averse lazy nullbears we got these days.

Get off my lawn.


Tell us more about this.. lawn of yours please. Big smile
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#6145 - 2014-10-03 22:18:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)


Nice, just ignore the real possibility that someone who hasn't had a chance to be on the last couple of days might have something *critical* to contribute. I've been through all pages up to this point and for sure there are points you need to review.
Is this why we have had so many broken mechanics and code released by you - CCP can't be bothered to be thorough?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#6146 - 2014-10-03 22:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
And stop trying to make TIDI out to be anything but a BAND-AID!!

Admittedly, things are better with it than they were before TIDI, as anybody who has been around for large fleet battles prior to TIDI knows full well.

But it's still a far from ideal solution.
ScheenK
StatiC Ex.
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
#6147 - 2014-10-03 22:19:38 UTC
xttz wrote:
Probably a bit late to spitball, but what the hell.

1) Set all ship jump ranges to exactly 10 light years. Carriers, Titans, Blops, everything. Starbase JBs remain at 5LY.
2) Jump fatigue is measured from 1-100%. Whenever you jump, your fatigue is increased by whatever percentage of 10LY you jump. So a 4LY jump adds 40% fatigue, 8.5LY adds 85%, etc. Simple.
3) Fatigue decays on a curve akin to shields and cap regen, just in reverse. This means that it's much quicker to go from 30% to 20% than from 100% to 90%.
4) Until the fatigue decays completely, this percentage is a limit on subsequent jumps. Someone with a 90% fatigue cannot jump more than 1LY, while someone on 35% fatigue can jump up to 6.5LY
5) Special-cases like blops, freighters and JFs build fatigue at a reduced rate (50% is probably fair).
6) Training Jump Drive Calibration speeds up fatigue decay.

This is far simpler to understand for players, easier to do math on the fly, and means less sitting around waiting on cooldown timers doing nothing in what's meant to be a video game. Inter-region travel is just as slow, but local travel is viable. There's an incentive for players to make shorter jumps or take gates, as recovering from a long jump would take much longer than several shorter ones.
The higher range introduces a trade-off for jump-capable combat ships; the further away they hide the easier it is to make a surprise attack, but the harder it becomes to get away again. In the future, power projection can be tuned by simply adjusting the base rate of fatigue decay.

Examples:

An Archon pilot jumps from Sahkt to Karan, a distance of 6.32LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at 63.2%. His next jump must be 3.68LY or less, although this will gradually increase as fatigue decays.

A jump freighter pilot jumps from CCP-US to DO6H-Q, a distance of 3.24LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at a reduced rate of 16.2% (half of 32.4%). His next jump must be 8.38LY or less, although this will gradually increase as fatigue delays.

A Rifter pilot takes a starbase jump bridge between CCP-US and DO6H-Q, a distance of 3.24LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at 32.4%. His next jump must be 6.76LY or less, meaning he can use at least one more Jump Bridge immediately. This means a return trip is easily possible, but using more than 1-2 bridges means a lengthy delay.


Better than CCP's Rendition of this **** idea

It's safe to say that CCP isnt improving the game to be better in terms of MMO, they are improving it to be the best space like game ever, which they are doing no doubt walking in stations and all that stuffs. I wish they would stop and think, just for a quick minute here and see that its not at all helping there game grow, when large fights cant even happen because of the lagg. The space coolness of the game dies out after a while, and players find themselves walking around a station doing nothing, awesome. Ive played this game since end of 2006, and its always showed the amount of players playing on login, that number has consistently been 20k-50k, its been 8ish years and that number has not increased, you could even say its been going down. Clearly something is wrong with what you guys are doing.

Now these proposed ideas, are without a doubt going to unsubscribe a decent amount of players, some will stick around maybe like it, others will stick around prolly not like it. All in all these changes are most likely not going to make ppl hearing about these changes start playing the game. Your going to loose more players and not gain any.

Without a doubt you guys are going to 100 percent implement these ideas, so my post is irrelevant anyway, but just for ******* once listen to your playerbase
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6148 - 2014-10-03 22:20:23 UTC
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
I find it interesting that about 90% of those that are protesting these changes are from the big power blocs or nullsec in general.
Really? Show your workings. 90% sounds very "pulled out of my ass".

From a nullsec perspective these are alright. I have ships all over my space and interceptors mean I can get about in very short time with zero risk of being dropped, so defence fleets are going to be pretty straightforward. Any long distance attackers don;t stand a chance in hell, so no worries about them anymore, and blops groups can be baited into jumping in and out, then you don;t need to worry about them for a while unless they want to get stuck in you system for an hour then suffer 20 odd hours of wait time once they jump back home. Pretty much the only thing that would need to be worried about is your average pirates, which are already there, we just need to worry less about them batphoning support.

So yeah, not sure why nullsec players are upset.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6149 - 2014-10-03 22:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Lucas Kell wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I dunno if anyone has actually calculated it out, but even with infinitely capable servers the speed of light limit might actually even put getting rid of TiDi as complete impossibility so long as all players are not in the same room with the servers.

What the hell?
Speed of light has nothing to do with TiDi.


Not speed of LIGHT, but the SPEED at which light propagates. All electronics and cables deal with pulse wave propagation issues, the pulses traveling through conductors at near the speed of light. Of course optical fiber cables do transactions over light, so it is apples to apples there. :) You have to allow some slop in your tick advancement to allow for fairness of customers at long distance from your servers. Otherwise, people in EU close to the server would have an unfair access advantage over customers in AU or US (for examples). I did say this possible limitation was predicated on infinitely fast servers, but I do wonder how much transmission round trip allowance is built into the server ticks.
I like things written by special people. Tell me another story.

Distance from the servers has precisely zip to do with tidi. Tidi is because the servers can't calculate the outcome of the commands it's processing as fast as it's receiving them, so the ticktime slows to allow the servers longer to process the scenario. If the servers were limitless in capability, tidi would not exist, even if your round trip time was 3 minutes. The individual with the terrible connection would be out of luck and dunked before they get to fire off a command, but the tickrate would continue as normal. Strictly speaking, people on crappy connections already would suffer a disadvantage, but the way EVE is designed, low level lag has minimal impact as you tend to start and stop things rather than firing off continuous streams of real time commands, like playing an FPS with 1500 ping vs someone with 20.


He's actually not completely wrong. Our alliance actually tested this rather extensively. Get a stiletto or similar with scan res boosted well over 4k. Dude in London catches every single ceptor to come through a gate. Same setup, same scan res, but pick dudes in Los Angeles, Seattle, Houston, D.C, New York, etc. and those guys cant catch sh*t (well, can't catch interceptors for sh*t at any rate).
Miyammato Musashi
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
#6150 - 2014-10-03 22:22:03 UTC
For those curious, the Incarna threadnought 13,453 posts as it was locked.

...just FYI since several have mentioned it.

I am a meat popsicle. 
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#6151 - 2014-10-03 22:24:45 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)


Nice, just ignore the real possibility that someone who hasn't had a chance to be on the last couple of days might have something *critical* to contribute. I've been through all pages up to this point and for sure there are points you need to review.
Is this why we have had so many broken mechanics and code released by you - CCP can't be bothered to be thorough?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


BOOM you have it in one they are not willing to read 300 ish pages of posts but we have to be willing to wait hours, days, weeks or millennia to use caps again.

They stopped reading anyway.

Back to my market kung fu
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6152 - 2014-10-03 22:25:01 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
davet517 wrote:
This is your opening. Step up. Set your neighbors red. Stop paying rent. Purge that blue list.

If you can assemble even a smallish super-cap fleet, you can hold a pocket against some feudal lord coming at you with a cache of dreads that they stashed. If they move their supers at you, just turtle up, make them grind the structures, then take them back when they bounce. Or, you could hire some mercs Blink.

Most of you are looking at this from the wrong angle. Sure, if you insist on maintaining your long list of blues and paying rent, this change will just make doing that a pain in the butt. If enough of you see it as your chance to break free, it gives you a much better shot at doing it than you have now.

Yeah, you're going to have to be a little bit inventive. If you live in deep 0.0 you might have to scout some wormhole routes and take advantage of them when you get them to get stuff from empire until CCP makes it more possible to be self-sufficient. Figuring out how to survive against the odds is where the fun is. Without the risk, it just becomes a grind. Do you really need another grind in your life?

Start theory-crafting a plan for yourself, and take a shot. Or, just take up space.



What he said


So much win. But alas, that's not the REAL eve.

REAL eve means belonging to a 10k man legion of F1 monkeys.
I'm told that's where the elite and emergent gameplay exists.


We are very glad to hear that your FC instructs you to assign another hotkey for toggling your offensive modules. Please tell us which key it is, so that we can complete the circle and name the group involved as whateverhotkeyyouuse monkeys.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#6153 - 2014-10-03 22:26:36 UTC
I think, in all honesty, the proposed changes have some good and some bad elements.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6154 - 2014-10-03 22:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Toriessian wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

Can't exempt BLOPS from fatigue, otherwise you'd just have Sins / Redeemers being the Pony Express for stealth bomber fleets of cap pilots to speed across the universe, arriving in the cap staging system with zero fatigue. That's no bueno.


And they wouldn't be able to do anything for 24 hours with my idea. Normal caps can't jump to covert cynos. That literally makes it better for them to use interceptors, which could also get the pilot anywhere he wants in 20-30 minutes relatively risk free.

Interceptor making my idea on the 24 hour limit kinda blah as is.

Interceptors can be smartbombed to hell by well organized fleets with solid intel, though. I suspect that Rooks and Kings among others will be plugged into all the right intel channels just waiting for the right day to ruin some bloc's response to a timer.

Which doesn't totally invalidate your point about interceptors as taxis, but nullbears be crying regardless, so meh.

One of the things I like about the multiple modifiers is that you can do things to tweak the impacts of fatigue accumulation and distance traveled. This gives CCP a lot more flexibility than arbitrary timers, gives players choices to make and tradeoffs to consider, and all the emergent gameplay that comes with it.



Oh yes, Rooks and Kings will stop ALL ceptor gangs ALL the time and NOBODY will think to send a few scouts. Oh, and nobody ever uses a bounce point when travelling through null, ever. Roll


Of course RnK won't kill them all, and of course smart pilots will get through - that's kind of the point of Eve. The smart and strong prosper, usually at the expense of the weak and foolish.

However, it's worth noting that this now gives people a way to counter the enemy that doesn't involve trying to stop a blob of supers and dreads - you find strategic chokepoints and you hold them with small forces. Even if all you do is delay your opponent, or kill 10% of his force, you're creating a strategic imbalance.

These changes are opening up strategic choices, rather than everyone automatically reaching for the N+1 supercaps solution. That's what makes them worth doing.


If these changes are opening strategic choices for whatever entity you are involved with, could you tell us what these mythical, supposedly new strategic choices are? Additionally, you may want to add more credibility to your statement by adding the list of strategic decisions in EVE you made personally over the length of time you have been playing. Thanks!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6155 - 2014-10-03 22:29:02 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
He's actually not completely wrong. Our alliance actually tested this rather extensively. Get a stiletto or similar with scan res boosted well over 4k. Dude in London catches every single ceptor to come through a gate. Same setup, same scan res, but pick dudes in Los Angeles, Seattle, Houston, D.C, New York, etc. and those guys cant catch sh*t.
Which has nowt to do with tidi. If you ping is slower than the tickrate, then you'll not be able to catch a ship in the first tick. If your ping is way below the tickrate, then if you react fast enough you may be able to.

The tickrate is I believe 1000ms, so if someone jumps in and your PC takes 800ms to receive the "this guy just landed" message, you are lightning quick and take 100 ms to click and then it takes a further 800ms for your "tackle that fool" to get back to the server, you're landing your hit 700ms to late. If his ping is 100ms he hits warp within a couple of hundred ms, he stands a good chance of getting away before your tackle lands. This is where blind luck comes into being caught at gates, since when you break cloak to warp, you don't know how far though the current tick you are and so there's a variation in how long it takes for you to actually hit warp.

Still though, no tidi involved.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Vulxanis Viceroy
Offworld Trading Company
Khimi Harar
#6156 - 2014-10-03 22:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vulxanis Viceroy
Lucas Kell wrote:
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
I find it interesting that about 90% of those that are protesting these changes are from the big power blocs or nullsec in general.
Really? Show your workings. 90% sounds very "pulled out of my ass".


And that takes away from my point...how? I did not realize being exactly correct on the numbers of who is frustrated... I don't know... actually mattered?

Lucas Kell wrote:
From a nullsec perspective these are alright. I have ships all over my space and interceptors mean I can get about in very short time with zero risk of being dropped, so defence fleets are going to be pretty straightforward. Any long distance attackers don;t stand a chance in hell, so no worries about them anymore, and blops groups can be baited into jumping in and out, then you don;t need to worry about them for a while unless they want to get stuck in you system for an hour then suffer 20 odd hours of wait time once they jump back home. Pretty much the only thing that would need to be worried about is your average pirates, which are already there, we just need to worry less about them batphoning support.

So yeah, not sure why nullsec players are upset.


Seems to be what CCP is trying to do lol

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/4fanm8/eve_in_a_nutshell_and_how_to_crack_it/

Public channel: VXV EVE

Twitter: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vulxanis_Viceroy
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6157 - 2014-10-03 22:30:15 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

I guess all those successful freighter escorts everyone used to have to do before jump freighters were introduced were everyone's imagination.

Chronologically, before Jump Freighters, people were hauling goods on industrials, stuffed into carrier hangars...

And yet, we still did freighter convoys, all the way out to the dronelands from Molden Heath, successfully, several times.

But hey, nullsec pilots were real manly men back then, who did what was needed even when it was difficult. We were hard men, and we made hard choices. Unlike the namby pamby risk averse lazy nullbears we got these days.

Get off my lawn.


Tell us more about this.. lawn of yours please. Big smile

They're so hardcore they were kicked out of null by publords.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6158 - 2014-10-03 22:30:35 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
I think that the larger alliances like goonswarm will move to ecpar in cloud ring which is close to high sec and all the other major players will follow suit which will mean that smaller alliances and corps will fill the vacum in deep space as they will be willing to take the risk and the space is filled with outposts.

They will rent the systems out, not abandon them completely.


Renting is a growing issue. There needs to be incentive for the SOV holding alliance to do the work, not just rent out every belt and anom they want to call their own.

"Renting" has been an issue since 2004, when "sov claims" were nothing more than forum flame threads and colors on Ombey's Eve Maps. Even back then it was "our space, even if we're not using us, pay us or we kill you". Just that alliances back then held a lot smaller area, because they had to travel by gates to project power.

Which seems to be the model CCP wants to move us back towards.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Tikitina
Doomheim
#6159 - 2014-10-03 22:33:58 UTC
Well, I take a week off the forums and this happens.

I didn't think CCP would have the balls to make this change. It will be interesting to see if they actually follow through though. Sometimes the higher ups fall for the whole forum-meta-whine machine that some of the nullsec orgs use.

Interesting way to try and fix the travel issue. Allows for good local defense while makes long range defense a lot more costly by requiring duplicate asset caches.

A good way to fix that though if this isn't enough for the richest orgs.
-Remove jump clones and allow the unplugging and re-plugging of implants once every 20-24 hours.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out though. So far CCP seems as determined as they were during the whole nano-nerf thing, so this actually may go live.

Btw, the rage-quit threats are always fun to read.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6160 - 2014-10-03 22:35:35 UTC
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
I find it interesting that about 90% of those that are protesting these changes are from the big power blocs or nullsec in general.
Really? Show your workings. 90% sounds very "pulled out of my ass".
And that takes away from my point...how? I did not realize being exactly correct on the numbers of who is frustrated... I don't know... actually mattered?
So you mean the figures don't actually matter at all? OK, then in that case I believe only 1% of the protests in this thread are from sov null players.

Your point was to put down null players as if the majority of the crying over the changes are them. That may or may not be the case, but you guessing that is the case means nothing (as you;ve rightly pointed out) so why bother mentioning it at all?

Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
From a nullsec perspective these are alright. I have ships all over my space and interceptors mean I can get about in very short time with zero risk of being dropped, so defence fleets are going to be pretty straightforward. Any long distance attackers don;t stand a chance in hell, so no worries about them anymore, and blops groups can be baited into jumping in and out, then you don;t need to worry about them for a while unless they want to get stuck in you system for an hour then suffer 20 odd hours of wait time once they jump back home. Pretty much the only thing that would need to be worried about is your average pirates, which are already there, we just need to worry less about them batphoning support.

So yeah, not sure why nullsec players are upset.


Seems to be what CCP is trying to do lol
CCP are trying to entrench sov null groups even more so smaller groups looking to attack null stand even less chance? Seems like a weird focus for a patch. I reckon CCP just had a falling out with black frog and thought it would be funny to nuke their earnings into the ground.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.