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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Grave Digger Eriker
Doomheim
#6121 - 2014-10-03 21:45:46 UTC
xttz wrote:
Probably a bit late to spitball, but what the hell.

1) Set all ship jump ranges to exactly 10 light years. Carriers, Titans, Blops, everything. Starbase JBs remain at 5LY.
2) Jump fatigue is measured from 1-100%. Whenever you jump, your fatigue is increased by whatever percentage of 10LY you jump. So a 4LY jump adds 40% fatigue, 8.5LY adds 85%, etc. Simple.
3) Fatigue decays on a curve akin to shields and cap regen, just in reverse. This means that it's much quicker to go from 30% to 20% than from 100% to 90%.
4) Until the fatigue decays completely, this percentage is a limit on subsequent jumps. Someone with a 90% fatigue cannot jump more than 1LY, while someone on 35% fatigue can jump up to 6.5LY
5) Special-cases like blops, freighters and JFs build fatigue at a reduced rate (50% is probably fair).
6) Training Jump Drive Calibration speeds up fatigue decay.

This is far simpler to understand for players, easier to do math on the fly, and means less sitting around waiting on cooldown timers doing nothing in what's meant to be a video game. Inter-region travel is just as slow, but local travel is viable. There's an incentive for players to make shorter jumps or take gates, as recovering from a long jump would take much longer than several shorter ones.
The higher range introduces a trade-off for jump-capable combat ships; the further away they hide the easier it is to make a surprise attack, but the harder it becomes to get away again. In the future, power projection can be tuned by simply adjusting the base rate of fatigue decay.

Examples:

An Archon pilot jumps from Sahkt to Karan, a distance of 6.32LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at 63.2%. His next jump must be 3.68LY or less, although this will gradually increase as fatigue decays.

A jump freighter pilot jumps from CCP-US to DO6H-Q, a distance of 3.24LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at a reduced rate of 16.2% (half of 32.4%). His next jump must be 8.38LY or less, although this will gradually increase as fatigue delays.

A Rifter pilot takes a starbase jump bridge between CCP-US and DO6H-Q, a distance of 3.24LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at 32.4%. His next jump must be 6.76LY or less, meaning he can use at least one more Jump Bridge immediately. This means a return trip is easily possible, but using more than 1-2 bridges means a lengthy delay.
A way more elegant use of mathematics than the system CCP have planned.

+1
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6122 - 2014-10-03 21:46:02 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kalissis wrote:


I will say this once to you: your blue donut is losing the argument, your self created boredom is coming to an end, go sit in TIDI while you can and please stop shitposting in here.

CCP is making the right decision, saving the game.


Not sure if you have noticed but near all null alliance leadership have shrugged their shoulders and told CCP to carry on.


Trench warfare.

You delusional people really think this changes things for you.

We ( the null bears ) even have time to get contingency plans in place not to mention stage assets strategically.


We started doing that last year.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6123 - 2014-10-03 21:49:04 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
We agree thing need fixing - but this is tooooooo much

I've lived through, in a different game, the fundamentally changing a game while it's LIVE.... you might be getting more than you want in the end?


That's some serious hyperbole.

The SWG equivalent would be if CCP removed all blueprints/industry and gave everyone any item they wanted for 100 isk like on SiSi.

How many 11 year old games other than EVE have survived without making major changes along the way?



Does Walking In Stations count?


Walking in stations is dead it's been re classified to waiting in stations.

WIS is reborn without any effort to finish the previous incarnation.



*sniffle You just put a lump of coal in my poopsock - Gaddamit! Sad

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#6124 - 2014-10-03 21:52:52 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
I think that the larger alliances like goonswarm will move to ecpar in cloud ring which is close to high sec and all the other major players will follow suit which will mean that smaller alliances and corps will fill the vacum in deep space as they will be willing to take the risk and the space is filled with outposts.

They will rent the systems out, not abandon them completely.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6125 - 2014-10-03 21:55:05 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Varesk wrote:
All of these changes could be avoided if CCP actually worked on getting rid of TiDi. TiDI is what allows these big fights to get the dog pile and allow people in the north travel to the south.


You can't physically get rid of TiDi if you are trying to allow all pilots to enter a single node (and that is a key Marketing ploy, err, feature that CCP insists on touting, even if it really is just an outright falsehood in practicality) - Server and Internet technology is not advanced enough to do that.

I dunno if anyone has actually calculated it out, but even with infinitely capable servers the speed of light limit might actually even put getting rid of TiDi as complete impossibility so long as all players are not in the same room with the servers. TiDi was a brilliant solution that at least allowed the servers to survive a node blob onslaught. Without TiDi you can kiss the server goodbye - because single shard and sandbox marketing says everyone has the right to be in that one system. I'll say it again - you cannot get rid of the need for TiDi with server changes under the current marketing of EVE.

So, given that nodes and the internet are not infinitely capable - you have to address node blobbing (nobbing anyone?) with game mechanic changes, of which this power projection nerf is a partial solution. They're about to put up the stop sign to keep one side of the server universe from nobbing the other side of the server universe on a whim. The power projection nerf is not a total fix. Whatever the complete solution is, it will have to force blob battles to spread out across multiple nodes in such a way that they do not require real time interaction between the nodes. Once you break that dependency TiDi can take a much needed holiday.

This did bring up a thought - if CCP's real intent is to kill the need for TiDi so they can use much cheaper servers.

There are ways to massively parallelize EVE so that the speed of light does not matter, since you can just use more light. Too bad CCP can't afford me :'(
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#6126 - 2014-10-03 21:55:29 UTC
When I first read the dev blog about the long distance travel nerfs I had the feeling they were conceived by some people being drunk on the edge of unconsciousness. Something like this should have been posted in the Features & Ideas section as a rough sketch to collect player feedback and to be able to develop the idea in careful iterations (or maybe even better not posted at all). Posting this as a dev blog is ... not what I would call smart or wise.

Most people seem to agree that the root of many null sec issues is in the SOV mechanics. Whereas power projection seems to be a problem on first glance, but when you look closer you might notice that it's a double edged blade. What's to stop the large alliances from deploying large capital roaming fleets when there's little to no danger from being countered by enemy supers? And in the rare case when someone tries to hotdrop you, you can use an emergency exit cyno to jump out ... jump fatigue will ensure that the enemy will have zero chance to follow you.

And when I read about the idea to remove the abilitly to move your medical clone to a station you are not docked in, I almost LOLed. I can almost hear the cries and taste the tears from when someone hellcamps a station, destroys the medical facilities and then pop pods and see them respawn in the station without any chance to upgrade the alpha clone.

I don't think the long distance travel nerfs will just fail to accomplish what the devs hope to achieve ... I believe this is going to fail spectacularly.
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#6127 - 2014-10-03 21:56:01 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6128 - 2014-10-03 21:56:28 UTC
Oh and as an update for those that are still attempting to contribut - God Bless your hearts - srsly.


Seeing as CCP Bail-scale, permanently exited this thread @ pg. 275


Shitposting is totally okay says I... Yar.


Please continue - that is all

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Evanika
Patriotic Tendencies
#6129 - 2014-10-03 21:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Evanika
This is another stunning example of CCP being flippant and really not engaging the player base......I am CCP and you do not matter because you disagree.

1 - There is technology in the marketplace the would effectively eliminate TIDI....If you don't post 20mm loses...you can actually buy it and make players lives better.... and EVE cooler.

2 - Interpretation - So we are making you play the game like it is 2005 again.....and you will like it. One step forward and two steps back.

BTW....These comments are not about the changes.....just how CCP handles itself in the public eye.

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Reitora wrote:
Let me see if I understand correctly... CCP is attempting to end the way it gave him the best publicity in years ... the capital Battle of B-R5.

Good move Lol


Yup, that's one of the goals. It was great for us publicity-wise, but we feel the paradigm of "no cap fights unless they're guaranteed to hit 10% TiDi" is bad for you guys.

MonkeyBusiness Thiesant wrote:
bp920091 wrote:
Congratulations CCP, you've made Stain and just about every single NPC 0.0 region uninhabitable.


I like the general thrust of the devblog, but the above is a valid response. Stain will be unreachable without going through sov,
Curse/Thukker will mean going through an oft-camped gate, and Venal will be seriously awkward (Lonetrek > midpoint in the Pure Blind mordus systems, then a jump into a non-station system in southern Venal).


Everything old is new again.

Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#6130 - 2014-10-03 21:58:20 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
I think that the larger alliances like goonswarm will move to ecpar in cloud ring which is close to high sec and all the other major players will follow suit which will mean that smaller alliances and corps will fill the vacum in deep space as they will be willing to take the risk and the space is filled with outposts.

They will rent the systems out, not abandon them completely.


Renting is a growing issue. There needs to be incentive for the SOV holding alliance to do the work, not just rent out every belt and anom they want to call their own.
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#6131 - 2014-10-03 21:58:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kalissis wrote:


I will say this once to you: your blue donut is losing the argument, your self created boredom is coming to an end, go sit in TIDI while you can and please stop shitposting in here.

CCP is making the right decision, saving the game.


Not sure if you have noticed but near all null alliance leadership have shrugged their shoulders and told CCP to carry on.


Trench warfare.

You delusional people really think this changes things for you.

We ( the null bears ) even have time to get contingency plans in place not to mention stage assets strategically.


We started doing that last year.


Adaption complete CoolCoolCool

Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Oh and as an update for those that are still attempting to contribut - God Bless your hearts - srsly.


Seeing as CCP Bail-scale, permanently exited this thread @ pg. 275


Shitposting is totally okay says I... Yar.


Please continue - that is all


Already started
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6132 - 2014-10-03 21:58:48 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:


So looking at the woman in the Red dress...

Ahem... you were saying? Oh Relevant - Yes very!

+1

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6133 - 2014-10-03 21:59:01 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
I think the key is that null sec sovereignty is 100% safe even if you don't log in for months at a time. (Only log in for super cap fight at some IHUB somewhere). If they do sov right, then alliances that decide to play LoL instead of Eve will risk losing their space. That alone would be worth all these changes.

If you dominate in the future, it's partly due to the fact that you're actually logged into the game on a regular basis.


This. This right here.

And that's their big mistake. We don't pay subscription fees to play EVE - we pay those so we DON'T have to play EVE, but still keep the option viable should something interesting happen.

With these changes making EVE more tedious, many will not even do that anymore.
FraXy
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#6134 - 2014-10-03 22:00:54 UTC
Jethro Winchester wrote:
FraXy wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
For combat do what you will. For logistics lets think it through a bit better.

Logistics enables combat. And as has been stated several times already, JFs will be used to circumvent the speed caps that CCP has in mind if you extend their range. Which combat pilots will abuse with impunity.

Not to mention that you "logistics" Rorquals make very effective combat platforms on their own.

Make logistics hard. It's the only way to shrink sprawling empires that don't have the organizational skill to overcome the challenges. Null became stagnant on the back of easy logistics - breaking that backbone is part of the drive to breathe new life into nullsec.


Wrong wrong and more wrong. If you flew in null you would know better. No one and I mean no real JF pilot will use a gate. Not now, not ever. Those that do are km. Rorquals will not be used now or ever for combat, never. The big alliances are already organized enough to compensate for this, this only effects smaller alliances starting up or coming out. It is not going to happen especially after the dev team pisses off half of null sec. No one, and I mean no one, is going to have a pleasant time getting past what will be a perma gate camp. At 5y range, believe me when I say the big alliances will have plenty of use for their super caps and titans. You have no idea what a can of worms this is going to open. Luckily I wont be here to see the debacle after my subs run out.

Logistics is not easy, that is how I know you are not a logistics pilot. Ask any of the frog guys lurking here, logistics is as dangerous as it has always been. You my friend are not a logistics pilot regardless to what you say. Any real logistics pilot understands the impact on the economy. It will destroy small alliances. Game, set, match.


Unfortunately we have to endure your constant posts, but that is also a small sacrifice to pay for the long term reward of not having you around after patch.


Yet another blindly optimistic post from my somewhat simple alliance mate.


Actually it's corpmate if we were to be technical and I won't sink to call you any names as I don't know you, and you really don't know me.
I would rather be blindly optimistic in regards to this, and then post that I were wrong later down the road which I wouldn't be too proud to admit to than keep the status quo as it currently is.

Any change at this point would be welcome as it would shake something up. Even if that means that things stay the same except held together differently.
We'll see which side were right down the road.

In the end skirmishers everywhere will gain, and we'll keep doing what we do regardless.

One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.

Napalm Atomicz
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6135 - 2014-10-03 22:02:00 UTC
My head feels a little bit fatigue

Maybe Fatima can tell me the future...
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6136 - 2014-10-03 22:03:19 UTC
Fakkk - RL calls

Posting has been hella fun! Keep up the hard work Forumbro's - Keep up the good fight and shitpost the fanboi's till they rage log!

Later!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#6137 - 2014-10-03 22:04:44 UTC
Jessica Duranin wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
I dunno if anyone has actually calculated it out, but even with infinitely capable servers the speed of light limit might actually even put getting rid of TiDi as complete impossibility so long as all players are not in the same room with the servers.

What the hell?
Speed of light has nothing to do with TiDi.


Not speed of LIGHT, but the SPEED at which light propagates. All electronics and cables deal with pulse wave propagation issues, the pulses traveling through conductors at near the speed of light. Of course optical fiber cables do transactions over light, so it is apples to apples there. :) You have to allow some slop in your tick advancement to allow for fairness of customers at long distance from your servers. Otherwise, people in EU close to the server would have an unfair access advantage over customers in AU or US (for examples). I did say this possible limitation was predicated on infinitely fast servers, but I do wonder how much transmission round trip allowance is built into the server ticks.


Kalissis
#6138 - 2014-10-03 22:07:02 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Kalissis wrote:


I will say this once to you: your blue donut is losing the argument, your self created boredom is coming to an end, go sit in TIDI while you can and please stop shitposting in here.

CCP is making the right decision, saving the game.


Lulz - Please say it again...

Cause no one is gonna remember your name when they see the coalitions meta an agreement on carving up home systems and then whelp on anyone that try's to move nearby (or just co-opts them entirely), but they might remember how utterly wrong you were?

See Greyscale can nuke captials - Low Sec indepdent minded pilots want nothing to do with Null, and self absorbed solo playing high sec pilots are to busy grinding ISK to ever care about Null - maybe WH pilots that are holding up well there might decide to try their hand at Null Sov *shrug

Or it could end up being a completely and utterly different dynamic, @#$@ if I know.

But the thing CCP can not control or nuke is the players - they can social engineer a design feature all they want and players will find a way around it to do what they want anyway. It is a sandbox after all.

So very little is going to change, because they built the game this way (intentionally or not).

So please, you mad bro? Please tell it to me again, k?


I will tell you something again, thanks for your tears TwistedTwisted
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#6139 - 2014-10-03 22:08:28 UTC
So anyone know a good mmo that's fun waiting in stations may be well....
But I need something to fill the void.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6140 - 2014-10-03 22:11:22 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Gwailar wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
I think the key is that null sec sovereignty is 100% safe even if you don't log in for months at a time. (Only log in for super cap fight at some IHUB somewhere). If they do sov right, then alliances that decide to play LoL instead of Eve will risk losing their space. That alone would be worth all these changes.

If you dominate in the future, it's partly due to the fact that you're actually logged into the game on a regular basis.


This. This right here.

And that's their big mistake. We don't pay subscription fees to play EVE - we pay those so we DON'T have to play EVE, but still keep the option viable should something interesting happen.

With these changes making EVE more tedious, many will not even do that anymore.


And that's your big mistake. No one cares about the stale meta and skilltrsining online ppl.

They want dynamic gameplay and growth.

The choice is

something not so dynamic shifting and hoping to hang on to those already disengaged.

Or something revolutionary to bring new life into the game

They've made their choice and rightly so.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."