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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5981 - 2014-10-03 20:00:18 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
This change is probably a buff to defenders.

Get it?

As for breaking things up in Null, this is not going to do it.


But what happens when the defender is the renter who doesn't want to pay rent any more?


Well...looking at the map I know what block is in bigger trouble considering their enormous number of renter systems....that are spread all the **** all over the place....just saying.
Ben ReVerT
Vengance Inc.
#5982 - 2014-10-03 20:00:29 UTC
TimeDrawsNigh wrote:
Counter proposal for the jump delay timer.

Link below is a google excel doc. of cumulative delay timer that incrementally gets longer with each jump.

http://bit.ly/1rOpzTs

It’s a logarithmic scale.

So when you jump you get two timers.

First timer is the jump drive timer; the second timer is jump drive activation delay.

The jump drive timer is a base 30 minutes and every time you make a jump it will record the amount and add +1 to the "Jumps Made Since Timer Began" value. The jump drive timer will reset back to 30 min every time you make a new jump.
The jump drive activation delay is the timer you get once you have jumped. It’s the time you have to wait till the next jump can be made.

The equation for this is below.

http://i.imgur.com/EQpv4Cv.png

The principal of what happens here is that your delay timer gets bigger with each jump. The increment between each subsequent timer gets smaller, causing the graph to plateau out into a logarithmic curve. Eventually after so many jumps the delay timer will reach the same value as the jump drive timer, at which point it’s better with it out entirely and then start the process over.

Initially we found a problem with the function where doing three really short distance jumps would make the times later overall shorter but that has been fixed with the “Jump Amount Modifier.”

So e.g.
Jump 1 > 4.19 LY > delay timer of 6.42min > cumulative time 6.42min
Jump 2 > 4.7 LY > delay timer of 9.72 min > cumulative time 16.14min
Jump 3 > 4.206 LY > delay timer of 11.73 min > cumulative time 27.86min
Jump 5 > 4.564 LY > delay timer of 13.28 min > cumulative time 41.14min
Jump 6 > 1.855 LY > delay timer of 14.15 min > cumulative time 55.29min

Notice the increase in time getting smaller but the time overall still get longer. Bit like the diminishing returns of stacking nerf.

This Post and Equation was worked on by Sieonigh and myself.

Edit: We made this formula under the assumption that Jump Freighters and Rorquals do NOT have the 90% reduction, rather we think Black Ops should have this reduction (which we're implementing).

Edit #2: We've updated the Formula to include a proposed Black Ops Modifier (pretty much gets CCPs Jump Freighter and Rorqual 90% Modifier). You can view this on the Google Docs Spreadsheet listed above or by clicking the below link to the updated formula for Black Ops.
http://i.imgur.com/GdLdM3R.png



I approve of this.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5983 - 2014-10-03 20:00:36 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
300 YES!



THIS IS EVE!!!



Ship toasting to 300 pages is the best form of emergent gameplay if you ask me lol

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Miyammato Musashi
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
#5984 - 2014-10-03 20:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Miyammato Musashi
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Miyammato Musashi wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Lets get into reality here real quick. This update is going through, we mostly know that. Some of us are just hoping, small hope, there is some reason on board with the dev group. there is no reason to wager, it will not be needed. However, I do wager this will reduce subs by at least 10 percent. That is a bet we can make.

I'll take that action. What do you want to bet? I think it'll be a lot less... I wonder if 10% of the player base can even fly jump capable ships. Regardless, caps are still very powerful. They will have new rolls, that's all. I think flying a cap will be more interesting after the change, since the probability of getting hot dropped will be significantly lower. Pods will be more inclined to use caps for smaller skirmishes.


Reduction in modules and ships all across the board will bring a more stale game atmosphere. There was a time you had to jump all over the place to get supplies. It was boring, some of their best ideas was making jump capable ships that could travel a long distance, it really cut down on the tedious and very boring aspect of the game. What is being purposed is a devolution of current modes of supplies. It is an extremely bad idea on so many levels.

My beef isn't so much with the cap fighting ships, although I think its complete BS to punish a group for being better than another. Not sure what the logic is there. My main beef is with destroying the convenience of markets spread all around New Eden.

I hear what you are saying. However, way back when I took my first timid steps into null, you could actually make some decent ISK bringing modules and ships into null and selling them. Today, you can check an outpost and find the prices aren't so far away from Jita. That removes the incentive for newer players to go to null. It's harder to make a living. One pods inconvenience is another pods money maker. Long time null dwellers can afford an extra 20 mil to fit their ship. It's chicken scratch. For a newer player, 20 mil could be a big chunk of cash over the course of a few transactions. It could sustain the losses they face living in null and losing ships all the time. That's just one example. These changes reshape what null is, and what you can do when you get there. It's going to create all kinds of new behaviour, and for the opportunistic there's a lot of new gameplay to be had there. All of this will draw more people into null, I think. Instead of a couple of big alliances dominating all of it with a few ships, opportunities will now pop up because it will be many many smaller ships needed to get things done in null.

We are entering a new null paradigm. This change redefines null. I think people are having a hard time shifting into the new null mode. Yes, things will change a lot. No, the old way of doing things isn't going to fly. ...but isn't that what we want? People have been complaining about null for about as long as I've been playing. Fix null. Fix null. Fix null. A new thread every day for 8 years. They are finally fixing it, and people are upset that it's different? It's fine. The change is happening. You'll thank CCP later, I'd wager.

I am a meat popsicle. 
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5985 - 2014-10-03 20:02:03 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=wohenhao]
Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands.



Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake.


I do very much hope so... I think we're long over due for a proper apology from CCP.

I mean how many unsubb spikes and Burn Jita's do you need as a company to GET THE ******* MESSAGE!







They should definitely apologize.

....For taking so long to do what is necessary with projection and travel.

These changes will go a long way towards making that up until they do.



We agree thing need fixing - but this is tooooooo much

I've lived through, in a different game, the fundamentally changing a game while it's LIVE.... you might be getting more than you want in the end?

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Yuri Thorpe
Volatile Restability
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#5986 - 2014-10-03 20:02:26 UTC
#300 pages of this
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5987 - 2014-10-03 20:02:26 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:


Look, null right now has 2 big blocks for the most part. This idea of one entity being attacked on multiple fronts is unlikley. And if a single block tries it, that is going to most likley mean these power projection problems hurt them even more. This change is probably a buff to defenders.

Get it?

As for breaking things up in Null, this is not going to do it.


Yes it will.

This provides exactly the opportunities someone will need to stab a blue in the back.

And it removes the incentives for people on opposite sides of the game to be blue with each other.


I think you are a bit out of touch with the current state of null politics. While various null entities have various treaties/agreements they are not all blue to each other.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5988 - 2014-10-03 20:02:28 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

Actually, I have lived in Stain, and no yes we did interact with the sov holders down there back then....usually to **** on them whenever we could.

Now, anyone wantint to live in Stain will be de facto vassals of the local Sov holders. Personally I see that as a bit of a loss.


The only vassals will be people like you without imagination and an ability to adapt their gameplay.

Just keep doomsaying and concern trolling about how you can't do tomorrow what you do today. The rest of us will enjoy all the options of tomorrow that don't exist today.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#5989 - 2014-10-03 20:03:02 UTC
300 pages of jumpbear tears Shocked
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5990 - 2014-10-03 20:03:27 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
300 YES!



THIS IS EVE!!!



Ship toasting to 300 pages is the best form of emergent gameplay if you ask me lol



Absofrigginlutely m8!

CHEERS!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kalissis
#5991 - 2014-10-03 20:03:43 UTC
YESSAAA! We are 300!
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5992 - 2014-10-03 20:04:06 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
[Oh yes, Rooks and Kings will stop ALL ceptor gangs ALL the time and NOBODY will think to send a few scouts. Oh, and nobody ever uses a bounce point when travelling through null, ever. Roll

No, they won't stop them all. But when they do... man will it have an impact.

And yes - scouts and bounce points and all that exist and will be used. People also make mistakes, and setting up on chokepoints forces folks to go around. Controlling the interior of that movement space makes it a lot harder to circumvent, and any delay screws those rushing to help.

In short, there are ways to impact even the might interceptor speed taxi of doom. They will be used, and they will have an impact. The magnitude of that impact will depend entirely on the skill of the folks involved.

I have far more faith in the skill and ingenuity of the RnK line member than a nullbear capital line pilot.


Perhaps you missed it....people can set up jump clones strategically...to help mitigate the issue of chocke points. And capital pilots in ceptors using a bridge isn't that big a deal to get by one choke point at least so I don't think the pipe bombing is going to be a significant deterrent.

You may have missed it - jump clones have a long timer, which makes them inconvenient for multiple rapid deployments in less than 24 hours. Which is the point of using interceptors instead. Especially after the death clone nerf.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#5993 - 2014-10-03 20:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

...
As for breaking things up in Null, this is not going to do it.

Normally I am the last person to beg patience with CCP, etc. But, weren't they very clear this is just an opening move in a chess game to that end?

Step 1: Reduce power projection (The stick)

Then...

Step 2: Inspire alliance-level conflict by.......(The candy to fight over)

Then..

Step 3: Super gates to Elysium!...(MOAR candy to fight over!)

Or was I injecting my own hopes into my read of the dev blog?

F

Would you like to know more?
Gwailar
Doomheim
#5994 - 2014-10-03 20:05:22 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
This change is probably a buff to defenders.

Get it?


That's what nerfing force projection means.

The more I think about it, the more excited I get. I don't think anyone--nullbears or otherwise--knows where this will lead, and that fact itself is a plus in my book.

Time to shake up the sandbox.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5995 - 2014-10-03 20:05:26 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
YESSAAA! We are 300!



WE ARE LEGION!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5996 - 2014-10-03 20:06:00 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
YESSAAA! We are 300!



Obligatory


Madness? ???? This is SPARTA!!!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#5997 - 2014-10-03 20:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Veskrashen wrote:
Jethro Winchester wrote:
Wait..you're in Justified Chaos? The GalMil corp that docked up to hide with the rest of GalMil when RDF brought a Rorqual and a 15 man frigate gang to Nennamaila station?

Considering how cowardly you guys were I think you should probably be quiet and go sit in the corner.

We're waving killboards around?

Ok. I've got about 3.5x as many kills as you.

JUSTK has about 7x as many kills at CYNOU.

...guess that means you ought to go sit in a corner and let the menfolk handle things, yeah?

First of all congratulations to everybody for making 300 pages. Second, we don't live in Nennamaila. Jethro should be smack talking Bastard Cartel, BNANA (CSM Rep FunkyBacon's alliance), and others who do.

Anyways, the net effect of these changes on our playstyle are fairly insignificant. We'll have to build more higher volume items in low sec and that's pretty much it.

Null sec guys come down to our area? Blue ball, guerlla warfare, whatever. Our stations are safe (no bubbles) and we have stuff spread all over low sec so even if a null sec group hell camps a system we just undock in frigs somewhere else and go do some pew.

Carrier hell camps are no more threatening than cockbag thrasher gatecamps and we've lost plenty of pods to those guys as well. Not a big deal. Just means we can start our low sec roam from our clone station.

If these guys ever want to engage in FW occupancy warfare, then great. We've been there before and win or lose (we haven't lost yet), we'll all have a great time getting massive numbers of kills (and deaths). Huola was a blast this summer. You should try it sometime.

Back to the point of this post: NPC Null sec has none of the advantages listed above. Goons, N3, whoever, can easily camp their area, including obligatory the NPC 0.0 part they want to create, and push out the little guys. There's really nothing to stop them. The null sec crowd really ought to be asking for low or high sec pockets in their space, not NPC null pockets.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5998 - 2014-10-03 20:09:00 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:

...
As for breaking things up in Null, this is not going to do it.

Normally I am the last person to beg patience with CCP, etc. But, weren't they very clear this is just an opening move in a chess game to that end?

Step 1: Reduce power projection (The stick)

Then...

Step 2: Inspire alliance-level conflict by.......(The candy to fight over)

Then..

Step 3: Super gates to Elysium!...(MOAR candy to fight over!)

Or was I injecting my own hopes into my read of the dev blog?

F



Your missing the @#$@ing EVISCERATE your Meta-Level content because you got too good at using the tools we gave you, so now bite your Null Sec home station pillow, 'cause were goin' in *dry* baby!!! Yeee Hawww!!

So in response: Weren't they clear that they were supposed to be *good* stewards of EVE?

Beware the False CCP Messiah: Yar! Captain Neckbeard! Pirate

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Jessica Duranin
Doomheim
#5999 - 2014-10-03 20:09:00 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
This change is probably a buff to defenders.

Get it?

Yes and no. It's a nerf to those trying to defend a massive area. It's a buff to those defending only a small area.
OP success.
Red Bluesteel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6000 - 2014-10-03 20:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Bluesteel
CCP if you really do it with these changes, then Eve will be a 100% Dead Game in 6-8 Weeks Attention

The following changes are acceptable for me:

  • Keep all Jump Ranges as they are
  • acceptable Jump fatigue = 2min (Standard) + 30sec per 0.5 Ly
  • after running out of this Cool down, Fatigue must be reseted. No Multiplications with old Fatigues.


e.g. 1:
If you have to travel 3 Max Jumps with an 5/5 skilled Archon (14.624 Ly), your total Fatigue will be 3*(2min+15min) = 51min.

e.g. 2:
If you have to travel 2 Jumps, 1st 10,4 Ly and 2nd 5,8 Ly, your total Fatigue will be: 2min+10,5min and 2min+6min = 20,5min.


I think that should be fair enough to be not an grand total Nurf and to travel even more will not be pain in the ass of a lifetime job.