These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jethro Winchester
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5941 - 2014-10-03 19:42:12 UTC
FraXy wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
For combat do what you will. For logistics lets think it through a bit better.

Logistics enables combat. And as has been stated several times already, JFs will be used to circumvent the speed caps that CCP has in mind if you extend their range. Which combat pilots will abuse with impunity.

Not to mention that you "logistics" Rorquals make very effective combat platforms on their own.

Make logistics hard. It's the only way to shrink sprawling empires that don't have the organizational skill to overcome the challenges. Null became stagnant on the back of easy logistics - breaking that backbone is part of the drive to breathe new life into nullsec.


Wrong wrong and more wrong. If you flew in null you would know better. No one and I mean no real JF pilot will use a gate. Not now, not ever. Those that do are km. Rorquals will not be used now or ever for combat, never. The big alliances are already organized enough to compensate for this, this only effects smaller alliances starting up or coming out. It is not going to happen especially after the dev team pisses off half of null sec. No one, and I mean no one, is going to have a pleasant time getting past what will be a perma gate camp. At 5y range, believe me when I say the big alliances will have plenty of use for their super caps and titans. You have no idea what a can of worms this is going to open. Luckily I wont be here to see the debacle after my subs run out.

Logistics is not easy, that is how I know you are not a logistics pilot. Ask any of the frog guys lurking here, logistics is as dangerous as it has always been. You my friend are not a logistics pilot regardless to what you say. Any real logistics pilot understands the impact on the economy. It will destroy small alliances. Game, set, match.


Unfortunately we have to endure your constant posts, but that is also a small sacrifice to pay for the long term reward of not having you around after patch.


Yet another blindly optimistic post from my somewhat simple alliance mate.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5942 - 2014-10-03 19:44:04 UTC
remus wulf wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=wohenhao]
Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands.



Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake.

Can we have your stuff then? Preferably before the change hits and we actually have to :effort: to get it somewhere.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5943 - 2014-10-03 19:44:43 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:

Wrong wrong and more wrong. If you flew in null you would know better. No one and I mean no real JF pilot will use a gate. Not now, not ever. Those that do are km. Rorquals will not be used now or ever for combat, never. The big alliances are already organized enough to compensate for this, this only effects smaller alliances starting up or coming out. It is not going to happen especially after the dev team pisses off half of null sec. No one, and I mean no one, is going to have a pleasant time getting past what will be a perma gate camp. At 5y range, believe me when I say the big alliances will have plenty of use for their super caps and titans. You have no idea what a can of worms this is going to open. Luckily I wont be here to see the debacle after my subs run out.

Logistics is not easy, that is how I know you are not a logistics pilot. Ask any of the frog guys lurking here, logistics is as dangerous as it has always been. You my friend are not a logistics pilot regardless to what you say. Any real logistics pilot understands the impact on the economy. It will destroy small alliances. Game, set, match.

Flew in null for years before JFs became a thing. We did fine taking billions through gates in slow vulnerable freighters. The fact that ya'll are so risk averse you refuse to even consider the benefit of taking a gate is telling.

The ones with balls will take the gates because it's faster, shorter, and gives them an edge. They'll take appropriate precautions in doing so.

Regarding Rorquals - if you don't see that you get 80% or so of the performance of the current carriers with a lot more mobility than the post nerf carriers, and that SOMEONE will damn sure put that into play... you're remarkably short sighted and blind to the lengths actual EVE players will go to hammer someone. Unless they address the Battle Rorqual issue before this change goes live, I predict you'll see them in action before the end of the year. 1 PLEX?


Lets get into reality here real quick. This update is going through, we mostly know that. Some of us are just hoping, small hope, there is some reason on board with the dev group. there is no reason to wager, it will not be needed. However, I do wager this will reduce subs by at least 10 percent. That is a bet we can make.
Jethro Winchester
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5944 - 2014-10-03 19:45:27 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=wohenhao]
Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands.



Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake.

Can we have your stuff then? Preferably before the change hits and we actually have to :effort: to get it somewhere.


Wait..you're in Justified Chaos? The GalMil corp that docked up to hide with the rest of GalMil when RDF brought a Rorqual and a 15 man frigate gang to Nennamaila station?

Considering how cowardly you guys were I think you should probably be quiet and go sit in the corner.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5945 - 2014-10-03 19:46:12 UTC
Jethro Winchester wrote:
FraXy wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
For combat do what you will. For logistics lets think it through a bit better.

Logistics enables combat. And as has been stated several times already, JFs will be used to circumvent the speed caps that CCP has in mind if you extend their range. Which combat pilots will abuse with impunity.

Not to mention that you "logistics" Rorquals make very effective combat platforms on their own.

Make logistics hard. It's the only way to shrink sprawling empires that don't have the organizational skill to overcome the challenges. Null became stagnant on the back of easy logistics - breaking that backbone is part of the drive to breathe new life into nullsec.


Wrong wrong and more wrong. If you flew in null you would know better. No one and I mean no real JF pilot will use a gate. Not now, not ever. Those that do are km. Rorquals will not be used now or ever for combat, never. The big alliances are already organized enough to compensate for this, this only effects smaller alliances starting up or coming out. It is not going to happen especially after the dev team pisses off half of null sec. No one, and I mean no one, is going to have a pleasant time getting past what will be a perma gate camp. At 5y range, believe me when I say the big alliances will have plenty of use for their super caps and titans. You have no idea what a can of worms this is going to open. Luckily I wont be here to see the debacle after my subs run out.

Logistics is not easy, that is how I know you are not a logistics pilot. Ask any of the frog guys lurking here, logistics is as dangerous as it has always been. You my friend are not a logistics pilot regardless to what you say. Any real logistics pilot understands the impact on the economy. It will destroy small alliances. Game, set, match.


Unfortunately we have to endure your constant posts, but that is also a small sacrifice to pay for the long term reward of not having you around after patch.


Yet another blindly optimistic post from my somewhat simple alliance mate.


It really is embedded in hope is what it is. Anyone that has been playing for awhile, in particular in the industry field, realizes the impact it will have on the game. I don't mind the insults, it is what it is.
remus wulf
Deranged Chaos
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#5946 - 2014-10-03 19:46:14 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=wohenhao]
Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands.



Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake.

Can we have your stuff then? Preferably before the change hits and we actually have to :effort: to get it somewhere.



nope id rather take it all out on a deliberate suicide run and get it all blown to hell.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5947 - 2014-10-03 19:46:16 UTC
remus wulf wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=wohenhao]
Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands.



Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake.


I do very much hope so... I think we're long over due for a proper apology from CCP.

I mean how many unsubb spikes and Burn Jita's do you need as a company to GET THE ******* MESSAGE!




CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5948 - 2014-10-03 19:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
Veskrashen wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Look we all wish we could be as big and tough as you and get a model girlfriend and learn karate too....but the point is people wont have to do the freighter convoys. JFs will still work. Existing methods may no longer be sufficient, but people can solve thay problem.

So you can button up your shirt, we are all impressed by your man boo...errr pecs. Roll

Thanks. They got me my model wife. Karate helped too, of course. *zips up*

And you're right - JFs will still work. Point being that if we could take that stuff 40+ jumps into null through gates, surely you masters of the known universe have the ability to secure a couple chokepoints long enough to get your JFs through in order to make their jump routes more efficient.

I mean come on, it ain't THAT hard. I know you all are used to zero risk comfy living out there, but sheesh.


No it isn't. And the bigger/older alliances will adapt their logistics to the changes. Smaller/newer alliances not so much. And the poor schlubs living in Stain right now? Better either start sucking BRAVE **** or find a new home cause logistics is going to be huge headache. So I am not crying as I'm questioning what are the expectations of these changes? More gate travel...okay. More people in space? Okay, maybe. More roaming? Okay, maybe. Those all look okay to me.

Now if you think big power blocks are going to suddenly shrivel up to occupy much smaller areas....think again. Whatever constraints these changes will put on the defenders will most likely constrain the attackers just as much if NOT MORE. When it comes to the current political landscape, this change has no pony in it.
Elsa Hayes
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5949 - 2014-10-03 19:46:30 UTC
Renters quitting but lots of bitter vets re-subbing I wonder what would be the better trade for the game, this or the current status quo???
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5950 - 2014-10-03 19:47:10 UTC
twit brent wrote:
I play EVE for fun, Making travel tedious and slow is not fun.


Bingo was his namo ! Lol
Josef Djugashvilis
#5951 - 2014-10-03 19:47:29 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
To all the goons and CFC still crying over this:

CCP is not trying to ruin the game, they are trying to ruin your game.


Made me smile.

I am so pleased to see goonies coming to the support of the pubbies they so despise.

This is not a signature.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5952 - 2014-10-03 19:47:55 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
Renters quitting but lots of bitter vets re-subbing I wonder what would be the better trade for the game, this or the current status quo???


Stats and sources please. I am all about being optimistic but saying Superman exists doesn't make it so.
remus wulf
Deranged Chaos
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#5953 - 2014-10-03 19:48:10 UTC
Jethro Winchester wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
[quote=wohenhao]
Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands.



Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake.

Can we have your stuff then? Preferably before the change hits and we actually have to :effort: to get it somewhere.


Wait..you're in Justified Chaos? The GalMil corp that docked up to hide with the rest of GalMil when RDF brought a Rorqual and a 15 man frigate gang to Nennamaila station?

Considering how cowardly you guys were I think you should probably be quiet and go sit in the corner.



and i think u need to research better !
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5954 - 2014-10-03 19:48:25 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
[Oh yes, Rooks and Kings will stop ALL ceptor gangs ALL the time and NOBODY will think to send a few scouts. Oh, and nobody ever uses a bounce point when travelling through null, ever. Roll

No, they won't stop them all. But when they do... man will it have an impact.

And yes - scouts and bounce points and all that exist and will be used. People also make mistakes, and setting up on chokepoints forces folks to go around. Controlling the interior of that movement space makes it a lot harder to circumvent, and any delay screws those rushing to help.

In short, there are ways to impact even the might interceptor speed taxi of doom. They will be used, and they will have an impact. The magnitude of that impact will depend entirely on the skill of the folks involved.

I have far more faith in the skill and ingenuity of the RnK line member than a nullbear capital line pilot.


Perhaps you missed it....people can set up jump clones strategically...to help mitigate the issue of chocke points. And capital pilots in ceptors using a bridge isn't that big a deal to get by one choke point at least so I don't think the pipe bombing is going to be a significant deterrent.
Miyammato Musashi
Freeport Exploration
Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
#5955 - 2014-10-03 19:48:48 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Lets get into reality here real quick. This update is going through, we mostly know that. Some of us are just hoping, small hope, there is some reason on board with the dev group. there is no reason to wager, it will not be needed. However, I do wager this will reduce subs by at least 10 percent. That is a bet we can make.

I'll take that action. What do you want to bet? I think it'll be a lot less... I wonder if 10% of the player base can even fly jump capable ships. Regardless, caps are still very powerful. They will have new rolls, that's all. I think flying a cap will be more interesting after the change, since the probability of getting hot dropped will be significantly lower. Pods will be more inclined to use caps for smaller skirmishes.

I am a meat popsicle. 
Almagar Phog
Clandestine Vector
#5956 - 2014-10-03 19:49:15 UTC
bump
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5957 - 2014-10-03 19:49:48 UTC
Elsa Hayes wrote:
Renters quitting but lots of bitter vets re-subbing I wonder what would be the better trade for the game, this or the current status quo???



That's a false choice set - they chose to go in THIS specific direction because of a single false CCP Messiah: Yar! Captain Neckbeard

There were other options, not to mention CSM was totally made a wall flower and then thrown under the bus.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5958 - 2014-10-03 19:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Toriessian wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

Can't exempt BLOPS from fatigue, otherwise you'd just have Sins / Redeemers being the Pony Express for stealth bomber fleets of cap pilots to speed across the universe, arriving in the cap staging system with zero fatigue. That's no bueno.


And they wouldn't be able to do anything for 24 hours with my idea. Normal caps can't jump to covert cynos. That literally makes it better for them to use interceptors, which could also get the pilot anywhere he wants in 20-30 minutes relatively risk free.

Interceptor making my idea on the 24 hour limit kinda blah as is.

Interceptors can be smartbombed to hell by well organized fleets with solid intel, though. I suspect that Rooks and Kings among others will be plugged into all the right intel channels just waiting for the right day to ruin some bloc's response to a timer.

Which doesn't totally invalidate your point about interceptors as taxis, but nullbears be crying regardless, so meh.

One of the things I like about the multiple modifiers is that you can do things to tweak the impacts of fatigue accumulation and distance traveled. This gives CCP a lot more flexibility than arbitrary timers, gives players choices to make and tradeoffs to consider, and all the emergent gameplay that comes with it.



Oh yes, Rooks and Kings will stop ALL ceptor gangs ALL the time and NOBODY will think to send a few scouts. Oh, and nobody ever uses a bounce point when travelling through null, ever. Roll


Of course RnK won't kill them all, and of course smart pilots will get through - that's kind of the point of Eve. The smart and strong prosper, usually at the expense of the weak and foolish.

However, it's worth noting that this now gives people a way to counter the enemy that doesn't involve trying to stop a blob of supers and dreads - you find strategic chokepoints and you hold them with small forces. Even if all you do is delay your opponent, or kill 10% of his force, you're creating a strategic imbalance.

These changes are opening up strategic choices, rather than everyone automatically reaching for the N+1 supercaps solution. That's what makes them worth doing.


Look it is ******** to pretend that RnK are going to be a constant and hard deterrent to using ceptors for moving around, even in a gang. It will happen...occassionally. But not nearly often enough to prevent this method from being used.

Let me also add that while the capital pilots might be moving around in ceptors, there will also likely be a conventional fleet of sub-caps as well.

And lastly, jump clones are not going away. People can cut thier travel time by strategically placing JCs, especially for capital alts.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#5959 - 2014-10-03 19:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Dammit. I wanted to be page 300..

::sadpanda::

Would you like to know more?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5960 - 2014-10-03 19:51:01 UTC
Oooooooo we are ALMOST THERE!!!! COME ON 300!!!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf