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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Aerich e'Kieron
Peace.Keepers
#4821 - 2014-10-03 02:44:08 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Racso Lluecks wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:


Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.


Omg the tears...

Do you people even read the OP?? You'd think they just deleted jump drives Lol

Wait out your timer.
Save your melodrama.


Have you ever done a logistics run? Back and forth in a jump freighter can be 12 jumps. That's no longer possible. I don't care a bit about combat capitals jumping - I actually like that. It's the non-combat capital jumps that cause this thing to be ill-thought out and the consequence of a drunken brainstorming session, not a measured mechanic change.



^^^ Winner....

The force projection effects of this change are good. The logistical effects, are not.

So the idea is, that instead of hotdropping supers.... Supers are going to escort freighters? That's your &*#$(%ing fix?




The logistics effects are good and it's all part of the same thing.

Ask yourself this: Why don't we just have Interbus ship everything people want everywhere in the galaxy instantly with no cost?

I mean, it's just meaningless time wasted right? Pointless complication, flying ships to do logistics.
And POS? "have you ever run a 50000 tower pos system blahblahblah" Jesus. We should probably just make them not need fuel at all. There, another boring gameplay aspect cured.

And why do we even bother with cyno's? Why can't I just sit in my station and click a place on the map and magically arrive there? That would be such good gameplay. So much less time wasted.


Just as regionalization needs to happen in regards to conflict and combat, it does also with logistics. Jita is basically projected everywhere. Hell, it's easier to get at-cost modules in some stations on the edge of null than it is in some highsec locations for the exact reasons why JFs need to take a hit.

You'll still be able to move things, if you want.

Now there is definitely an issue with the self-sustainability of null space. But those issues need to be addressed independently of these projection issues. For change to happen, you have to take the first step. This is a really good first step to be taking.

For those that just don't want change at all? Too bad.
What about the content created by gate activity?
What if we end up in place where people run convoys like way back in the day?
Some people used to like that (running them and interdicting them).
For every JF pilot crying in his beer right now there is easily a person that will enjoy the outcome of these changes.

Wow, could you imagine logistics combat interactions that go beyond people suiciding freighters in highsec with destroyers?
Nah... could never happen.
That's the apex of the game right there, as good as it can ever possibly get. Roll


---

The bottom line is this: dynamic gameplay

Not everything is supposed to be easy. In fact, a game without challenges and hurdles just sucks. It's part of what makes a game A GAME. It IS the environment.

Now... some would have you think the game itself should pose no hurdles, that any challenge should be presented by other players.
Those people usually have an upper hand and just don't want THEIR game being bothered by that of others. They are comfortable, stagnant, booooooring. My gameplay, and the gameplay of tens of thousands of others does not occur to them. They are both selfish and short-sighted. You are.

It's all that is wrong with this game, and people of that mentality should no longer should be listened to. We see where the result of an easier game has gotten us. Boring stalemate. Whether it's hotdropping carriers on frigates or Jita on your doorstep with basically no risk or pain-in-the-ass involved.

You really don't know what's good for this game.
You have a complete inability to look at tomorrow, your brain is stuck in the present. You simply cannot imagine a better environment.

This isnt' just about combat. Regionalization needs to be all-encompasing. It's bigger than what your thinking. JF's aren't an oversight or shortsighted here, they are a crucial part of the nerf.


WELL SAID.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#4822 - 2014-10-03 02:44:56 UTC
Ukiah Oregan wrote:

-- no one wants to a own a 0.0 system that has two belts in it and 3 moons unless the moon happens to be the "right" moon

I would. I'd even be willing to own a system with no belts and a single, solitary moon that's absolutely worthless for mining. Hell, if such a nulsec system existed, I'd fight to put my name at the top of its "ownership" list, whether it were through actual ownership, or renting. I would prefer it to be lowsec (I much more enjoy lowsec than nul, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't make exceptions for such a system), but I have quite a few ideas on what to do with such a system, some of which would be rather dull to the average person, others of which would be quite lucrative.

Sadly, to my knowledge, no such system exists anywhere in EVE (if one does, please point it out to me!)

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4823 - 2014-10-03 02:45:32 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
According to the CSM, every 0.0 CSM member is opposed to this change, and none of them were informed or even asked about the nerf to Jump Freighters.

http://themittani.com/features/csm-criticizes-ccp-behavior-alleged-feedback

What say you, CCP?


I'm pretty sure they say "HAHAHAHA"

The CSM violated their NDA and took confidential info to their alliance heads.

Where do you think that hilarious and asinine 'letter from null' or whatev came from?

With friends like that, who needs enemies? Corruption has ruined the csm. They are irrelevant and their interests are selfish, not aligned with the health of the game or business of CCP


Screw'em. They made their bed.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4824 - 2014-10-03 02:47:30 UTC
The problem with the JF nerf is that it is being nerfed with a pricetag in money and hours of boredom. The former is fine, the latter is unforgivable for what is supposed to be a GAME.

Every minute I spend jumping around safely in a freighter is a minute I can't spend on precious pew. Explain to me why any logistics pilot should play EVE after this patch.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#4825 - 2014-10-03 02:48:25 UTC
Dear TheMittani.com ,


When your best argument is resorting to calling someone a liar one can deduce you don't have much else of an argument. Sorry that you are unhappy about changes and good luck with your dog and pony show Tilde Tilde.


♥ Manny

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4826 - 2014-10-03 02:48:44 UTC
Quote:
but dicking around with the purpose of CSM to create a 'cover' for a planned feature change is a giant middle finger to the entire community AND the very reasons that CSM was created in the first place.


The only people dicking around with the purpose of the csm are the choad warriors the bloc monkeys voted onto the csm.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Aloh
Migrant-Fleet
#4827 - 2014-10-03 02:49:55 UTC
CCP why are you working so hard at keeping me from playing the game?

Also this will not kill the GSF or any of the large SOV blocks.
They can and will clear a route to empire or at least low sec for logistics.
This will only make it harder for smaller corps to come out to null.
Just like reducing the amount of ice in the game or jumping up the amount of fuel used in jumps.
Remember those "fixes"? How did they help?

Limiting the amount of SOV that can be held by a corp based on activity would only hurt the big SOV alliances not the small corps/alliances trying to break into SOV.

Once you have 100% activity in a system the SOV can cascade to the next systems allowing a corp or alliance to have multiple systems. No need to destroy the smaller corps ability to get out into SOV. Yes people can get around the limitation to a point with meta. But only to a point. It would put a stop to multi region spanning SOV empires with out destroying caps.

Over the last few years I have gotten pretty good at reading CCP corp speak.
Redefining how you use caps is pretty much equal to saying fundamentally altering the game.
You had better make sure that your players will want to play it.
From the back peddling I am seeing on the originating post it looks like you may be aware of how many subs this will cost you. You have made industry way more complicated then it needs to be and now you are making it impossible to reliably resupply corps in SOV fighting for their space or to take space.

Many people have suggested better ways to do this.
Stop before you commit this blunder.


Remember
Don't watch what we say watch what we do.

Waiting to see the final changes rolled out.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4828 - 2014-10-03 02:49:56 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
According to the CSM, every 0.0 CSM member is opposed to this change, and none of them were informed or even asked about the nerf to Jump Freighters.

http://themittani.com/features/csm-criticizes-ccp-behavior-alleged-feedback

What say you, CCP?


I'm pretty sure they say "HAHAHAHA"

The CSM violated their NDA and took confidential info to their alliance heads.

Where do you think that hilarious and asinine 'letter from null' or whatev came from?

With friends like that, who needs enemies? Corruption has ruined the csm. They are irrelevant and their interests are selfish, not aligned with the health of the game or business of CCP


Screw'em. They made their bed.


Ah, now I see where your sperg is coming from, as you are highly "aligned with the health of the game or business of CCP". The CSM, according to you is not, by which I assume you mean the CSM represents the other party, which can only be the players of this game.

That's pretty twisted, right there.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4829 - 2014-10-03 02:51:45 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Explain to me why any logistics pilot should play EVE after this patch.


If they think like you, they shouldn't.
Bye.

It's been explained, you just dont like the answer. You sound like my two year old

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4830 - 2014-10-03 02:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
The problem with the JF nerf is that it is being nerfed with a pricetag in money and hours of boredom. The former is fine, the latter is unforgivable for what is supposed to be a GAME.

Every minute I spend jumping around safely in a freighter is a minute I can't spend on precious pew. Explain to me why any logistics pilot should play EVE after this patch.

Well, for starters, the new mechanics pretty much force you to do less logistics, or you get ridiculous fatigue. This means either your organization adapts to lower the burden on your logi pilots (say, by only importing T2 mats and a bit of non-regional fuel) or it adapts by spreading the logi load, sharing the burden as it were amongst other pilots.

Either way, the individual logistics pilot does less logistics. If (as you say) the logi pilot is fond of pew, this gives him more time to pew the pew. Cool
Rudina
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#4831 - 2014-10-03 02:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Words


So yes I said lowsec and the point stands without him being new, you are forcing him to train mining and industry and spend hours of tedium doing that or spend hours of tedium waiting for his jump timer to cool down.

Also I look forward to all this local producing Moa will be doing, hostile mining ops in easy roam range of dek? Can't wait.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4832 - 2014-10-03 02:53:15 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

I and most of the people here and elsewhere are going option C: rage against a game-breaking change that cuts off a large percentage of space from trade and will crush the EVE economy, in the hopes of saving CCP from itself.

The capital nerf is needed. JF nerf is premature at best - it can only come after far off nullsec regions get resource independence.

If you think this change is game-breaking or that you're saving CCP from itself, you're part of the problem - a playerbase that wants things fixed as long as it only impacts everyone else. The problem isn't that it will be harder to get your supplies; its excessive demand. You said it yourself 'it's more fun with T2'. That is your problem. You also said "I'm entitled...". You aren't. Excessive ease of transport from highsec is part of the reason null isn't self sufficient. There's no need to be. You just don't want to have to understand the game or adapt. You're therefore falling back on the standard of self-centered players f pretending there's a unified base of "most" people that agree with you (there isn't; its confirmation bias) and pretending CCP doesn't understand.

They do - better than you.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4833 - 2014-10-03 02:53:52 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Explain to me why any logistics pilot should play EVE after this patch.


If they think like you, they shouldn't.
Bye.

It's been explained, you just dont like the answer. You sound like my two year old

It's against forum rules for me to honestly explain what you sound like.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4834 - 2014-10-03 02:54:34 UTC
Rudina wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Words


So yes I said lowsec and the point stands without him being new, you are forcing him to train mining and industry and spend hours of tedium doing that or spend hours of tedium waiting for his jump timer to cool down.

Also I look forward to all this local producing Mia will be doing, hostile mining ops in easy roam range of dek? Can't wait.

Absolutely nothing about this change forces anyone to mine. Jump mechanics are not actually necessary for anyone to play, leastof all new players.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#4835 - 2014-10-03 02:54:41 UTC
Aloh wrote:
Limiting the amount of SOV that can be held by a corp based on activity would only hurt the big SOV alliances not the small corps/alliances trying to break into SOV.

Limiting the amount of Sov a corp or alliance can hold would be meaningless, and would hurt the smaller players more than the larger, as the larger can more-readily break their group into numerous smaller groups, while still acting as a singular entity.

The larger groups have the logistics and tools to accomplish this. The smaller groups rarely do.

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4836 - 2014-10-03 02:54:55 UTC
Aloh wrote:
CCP why are you working so hard at keeping me from playing the game?

Aloh, with these changes, there'd be a much larger focus on industry in nullsec. You wouldn't be hauling, you'd be building.Big smile

Say you want to build a marauder: you only need to import ~3000m3 of T2 mats. That's a cakewalk compared to hauling the entire marauder from Jita, now.
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#4837 - 2014-10-03 02:55:13 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


...

Big thanks to the whole CSM for their help with this process so far and the good work I know they'll continue to do as we consult with them going forward.

...



Mouth so full of lies!

READ: The Mittani: CSM Criticizes CCP



smokeydapot wrote:
They are still to convince me and this is the last chance I give CCP and the Dev's ( don't believe me ccp check my overall sub time this year ).

And I'm teaching new players your game because you can't document it properly.


And now I have ZERO respect for ANY DEV involved in this thread good day you underhanded lying ********************

Communicating with the CSM in an effective manner I don’t think so.

Mike Azariah wrote:
for the record: when I moved out of null it was in a carrier. that ain't gonna happen again, is it?

m


Lets see if the devs can communicate with the CSM first no wonder this threadnaught has hit a near epic level of rage not to mention lies from devs yet again.
EvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvil
Deych
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4838 - 2014-10-03 02:56:08 UTC
Rudina wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Words


So yes I said lowsec and the point stands without him being new, you are forcing him to train mining and industry and spend hours of tedium doing that or spend hours of tedium waiting for his jump timer to cool down.

Also I look forward to all this local producing Moa will be doing, hostile mining ops in easy roam range of dek? Can't wait.


Train skills, find some friends, or just make more ISK and let FROGs bring your ships. That's normal. You know what not normal at all? When Goon-size alliance can deploy from Deklein to Curse with all their market, ships, fits and exotic dancers in 1 day.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#4839 - 2014-10-03 02:56:11 UTC
The thread is moving too fast to keep up with. I read a few and there is 3 new pages.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#4840 - 2014-10-03 02:56:18 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
According to the CSM, every 0.0 CSM member is opposed to this change, and none of them were informed or even asked about the nerf to Jump Freighters.

http://themittani.com/features/csm-criticizes-ccp-behavior-alleged-feedback

What say you, CCP?


I'm pretty sure they say "HAHAHAHA"

The CSM violated their NDA and took confidential info to their alliance heads.

Where do you think that hilarious and asinine 'letter from null' or whatev came from?

With friends like that, who needs enemies? Corruption has ruined the csm. They are irrelevant and their interests are selfish, not aligned with the health of the game or business of CCP


Screw'em. They made their bed.


While saying "screw them" probably is not the right turn of a phrase, there is a relevant issue of whether the CSM allegedly notified the alliances of the changes (it is speculation, as there is no proof, except the signing of this memo to CCP). I doubt it as it would out them from the CSM in total.

Lets not go down that road regarding this.

It does warrant the question.... does the CSM really represent you? This is a different question for a different thread. Again lets not go down that road.

Mike Azariah wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:

Mike, from where you are in nullsec, how many jumps is it for you to get to lowsec in your capital currently? And how many will it be and how long will it take in the future? And based on your experience with the movement of capitals for non-PVP purposes, do you think this will have a desired effect on player enjoyment of the more boring aspects of day-to-day logistics? Finally, have we slaughtered the symbiosis between nullsec/hisec on the altar of force projection?

Since you are collecting relevant comments and tears, I'm hoping you can opine based on your experience in these areas.


Not in null, haven't been in a long time, except for the occasional titan bridge for hunting purposes.

Don't do logistics which is why I have asked logistics folks to contact me and send in concerns/suggestions. I especially would love to chat with the specialized frog transport folks if they want to bend my ear.

No, I don't think the symbiosis is dead, yet. But it took a hit as EVERYTHING did and should when you make a change this big. That is how Eve works. Markets, mining, everything is gonna feel this, probably in ways we cannot predict.

That does not mean we shouldn't, it means we have to watch and learn and maybe (just maybe) react.

for the record: when I moved out of null it was in a carrier. that ain't gonna happen again, is it?

m


You do realize you can't base balance off of what one corporations opinion is. Its like trying to effect change for a society, but then changing the opinion based on what Walmart wants.

This universally hits everybody, not just 1 corporation or 1 group, its all. Attempting to carve out sections you don't like to appease them would pretty much ruin the entire suggested change in total. The profits of a corporation cannot dictate the direction of the game, or the needed changes to its future.

People will adapt.

Yaay!!!!