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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#4741 - 2014-10-03 01:59:00 UTC
Findell Ronuken wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
See, when you say things like "compressed goods", you stop sounding smart, and the reason you disagree with us becomes clear: you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can move 620 million units of tritanium in compressed veldspar in a single JF load, assuming 88% refine and 320,000m3 capacity on the JF.

How much stuff do you need to build that requires that much raw material?

Supercaptials. Almost all those minerals are imported from empire along with all the moon minerals that 0.0 export to empire. T2 prices will spike hard.


SSHHHHH don't tell them that I'm going to enjoy milking them on all the T2 stuff

What was that HTFU right back at you high sec...LolLolLol
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4742 - 2014-10-03 01:59:32 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Lam Sixteus wrote:
Please consider maintaining the mobility of fleets.

Fleets can move about just fine, even after these changes. You can use stargates to cross the entirety of New Eden and never gain a single second of Jump Fatigue, even in your supers and titans.



THIS JUST IN:

Real reason for new "Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound" are to remove RnK Pipebombs from game ~ Can't BS Fleet Smartbomb Caps!

Now everyone can travel in safety!

CCP Greyscale declared employee of the month!

Blink

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4743 - 2014-10-03 01:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nazri al Mahdi
Veskrashen wrote:
Findell Ronuken wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
You can move 620 million units of tritanium in compressed veldspar in a single JF load, assuming 88% refine and 320,000m3 capacity on the JF.

How much stuff do you need to build that requires that much raw material?

Supercaptials. Almost all those minerals are imported from empire along with all the moon minerals that 0.0 export to empire. T2 prices will spike hard.

Ok, so based on 970m trit, 230m pyer, 80m mexallon and assorted stuff, it'd take about 3 JF loads of minerals per supercapital. If your round trip is 28 jumps, then you're looking at 21 hours of round trip movement per supercapital's worth of materials. That's just the empire -> ass end of nullsec portion of course, and you can probably cut the number of jumps need by using gates or other tools.

I don't have 21 hours per week to risk slipping into a coma from the worst game experience available internationally. But it's actually 42, because 28 mids * 15 minutes * 2 (round trip) * 3 = 42, with a minimum commitment per person of 14.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4744 - 2014-10-03 01:59:41 UTC
Nazri al Ma wrote:
that is my transport need, regardless of the arguments you want to make about it. And I'm just a small corp.

EDIT: we already mine like crazy.


No one cares.

It's not about YOUR game.

It's about THE game

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Rudina
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#4745 - 2014-10-03 01:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
Veers Belvar wrote:


No, one of the key points of this change is to force the Goon capitals to choose a home system and to make it INCREDIBLY painful for them to move to far away places. This means that adequately responding to challenges to your far flung space, especially multiple simultaneous ones by capital fleets, will stretch you to the breaking point. This should naturally lead to consolidating space, and opening up more opportunities in your former outlying sov. Giving more mobility to caps would entirely undermine that.


Your impression that we won't simply have multiple ship cashes around our sov and abuse jump clones and interceptors to get to them is quite cute.

But this isn't about the cfc, it's about being able to use your caps as a small corp alliance within your own region or not being forced to sit through 4 hour move ops to move from placid to aridia for a wormholer to move his carrier through a connection.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#4746 - 2014-10-03 02:00:09 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

Even if JF were only 7.5ly we could still go around using the old Titan route, which is only like 12-14 jumps. I already have the full chain (howdy neighbor!). But 5 ly makes it 28 jumps and impossible with jump fatigue. There is no way I am working 40 hours a week at EVE - I cannot do that.... and live.

What stops you from using blops + blockade runner buddies + covert cyno alts to get anything you need, anywhere you need it?

The only thing you need to import are t2 mats and fuel that isn't native to your region. Both of those things trivially fit in a blockade runner, and the blops can bridge them at 7+ LY with reduced fatigue to perfectly safe covert cynos.

Look, 1 blops + 10 blockade runners = half a jump freighter worth of cargo that doesn't need to use station midpoints and operates with perfect safety. Produce all of the T1 mats locally, and this solves ALL of your problems.

Quick math test: how many blockade runners do I need and for how long per week to run 1 million m3 to null.

You can call me a liar all you want, but that is my transport need, regardless of the arguments you want to make about it. And I'm just a small corp.

EDIT: we already mine like crazy.


Pay people to do it for you. Sure, the Froggies will raise their rates, but the stuff you export will get more expensive too. It's going to mean scarcity and higher prices, but real reward for those who do it right.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4747 - 2014-10-03 02:00:26 UTC
Rarnak Ki wrote:

We are already using our maximum time in this game doing these things and 90% of that is spent hauling.
...
Instead they are just going to abstain from engaging in that type of play altogether.


So don't haul. Get some indy dudes to build your ships in your home regions. Use whatever ice is native to your region to fuel your towers.

Their are 2 things you need to import: T2 mats and non-native fuel for your caps (not towers, those you switch to match your regional isotopes). Both of those things are trivially imported via blops + blockade runners. Or, if your alliance is huge, god forbid you do a freighter op. A couple of freighters filled with nothing t2 mats will tide you over for a long time.

The whole point of these changes is that you can't meet 100% of your needs via Jita logistics.
Kasharoo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#4748 - 2014-10-03 02:00:41 UTC
Beware of CCP, for they will make a desert of your home as well as theirs


These changes, primarily the nerf to jump range (5LY) are going too far too fast. I can accept the jump fatigue mechanic to slow people down but limiting a JF range that is crucial to logistics and living in Null is game breaking.

What I used to do in 1 jump to NPC null sec will now take 4 jumps and that includes a non-station system forcing me to float around in an uncloaked JF until the timer ends.

Some people will have it worse with many midpoints in non-station system or hostile mid point systems. I gather you can wait out the fatigue timer each jump for the most efficient travel time, but are people really going to sit in their uncloaked JF for 15-20 minutes waiting to get scanned down. No of course not, the procedure will be to jump...then log off until the timer ends.

So "playing" the game now entails logging off for periods of time waiting out timers....that sounds fun.

I'm not a member of any large coalition...just a solo player who runs a few towers and ice mines. The logistics of that now will not be worth the trouble. I'm not about to quit eve but at least 5 of my accounts will likely be un-subbed since this change shuts down a major part of my game play options.

CCP you need to reconsider the max jump range especially for JF/Rorquals....those ships were never part of the power projection problems that prompted all this.
Alexis Nightwish
#4749 - 2014-10-03 02:01:42 UTC
Thread's only a day old when I find it and over 230 pages long so I doubt anyone will read this, but here's my .02 isk:


Any penalty that is tied to a character, will simply be circumvented by using an alt.


And CCP if you're thinking "Yay more alts means more money" remember that if you **** up your game enough, people won't play it anymore and all those accounts alts or not, will disappear. Factor that in when you consider your bottom line.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#4750 - 2014-10-03 02:01:42 UTC
Pardon the heresy but with these changes to JF's it's almost like they are saying that miners and industry players need to be just as important as combat pilots to the health of an alliance. Perhaps a change in recruitment strategy is needed.

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4751 - 2014-10-03 02:02:43 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Nazri al Ma wrote:
that is my transport need, regardless of the arguments you want to make about it. And I'm just a small corp.

EDIT: we already mine like crazy.


No one cares.

It's not about YOUR game.

It's about THE game


Jump freighters didn't kill the game, they saved it. It's a lot more fun to play when you can afford tech 2.

Also, no one gives a crap about your opinion.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4752 - 2014-10-03 02:02:47 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

Quick math test: how many blockade runners do I need and for how long per week to run 1 million m3 to null.

You can call me a liar all you want, but that is my transport need, regardless of the arguments you want to make about it. And I'm just a small corp.

EDIT: we already mine like crazy.

16 DSTs through a convenient wormhole. Could probably do it in a day or less, depending on how far off from your home you're willing to look for a hole.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4753 - 2014-10-03 02:02:50 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

Pansy entitled lazy effing nullbears, I swear. Get off my lawn already.

Not sure how you get "nullbears" out of my concern about acquiring a steady supply of PvP ships...

Your (CFC) desire for nice high impenetrable walls, easy logistics, and the ability to helicopterdick folks on the other side of the map for lulz.

Then again, RZR actually deployed to lowsec and is undocking for fights, so some of you don't suck after all.


Way to make generalities about my play style based on not my corp (which I choose), not my alliance (which I don't), but my coalition (which I don't).

If I wanted to do the same thing, I could argue, "Why should we care about your opinion, in a corp that has never, to my knowledge, even lived in null-sec." But I don't, because your ideas, as much as I disagree with them, deserve consideration because a player (singular) of this game shared them.

I'd like the same courtesy, kthxbye.

Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com
Takeshi Hendrix
Natus Ex Igne
#4754 - 2014-10-03 02:03:32 UTC
I understand the desire to split up the larger power blocks in null sec, but how does this not disproportionately affect smaller groups that make their living in part through logistics? This proposed ham-fisted approach is going to destroy smaller alliances in null sec that greatly depend on logistic deliveries for fuel and trade goods while the larger groups will inevitably find some way to mitigate the changes aimed directly at them. How about a more granulated approach, maybe introduce one change at a time instead of numerous sweeping changes all at once?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#4755 - 2014-10-03 02:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Rudina wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


No, one of the key points of this change is to force the Goon capitals to choose a home system and to make it INCREDIBLY painful for them to move to far away places. This means that adequately responding to challenges to your far flung space, especially multiple simultaneous ones by capital fleets, will stretch you to the breaking point. This should naturally lead to consolidating space, and opening up more opportunities in your former outlying sov. Giving more mobility to caps would entirely undermine that.


Your impression that we won't simply have multiple ship cashes around our sov and abuse jump clones and interceptors to get to them is quite cute.

But this isn't about the cfc, it's about being able to use your caps as a small corp alliance within your own region or not being forced to sit through 4 hour move ops to move from placid to aridia for a wormholes to move his carrier through a connection.


You won't be able to cache caps in every far flung region of your sov. Your far out renters are going to get hellcamped and pack out if you can't defend them. At some point it wont even be worth the effort for you to maintain sov there (who would want to rent?), and you will consolidate to your core areas, where you can easily cache caps and form defense fleets. And that will open up all those regions you abandon to new groups who actually want them, not just groups looking for their own personal version of highsec farming under CFC protection. So yes, tying down the caps of small groups is surely worth it if it means that the caps of the big groups are tied down as well, and their vast territory rendered indefensible.
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#4756 - 2014-10-03 02:04:20 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

Even if JF were only 7.5ly we could still go around using the old Titan route, which is only like 12-14 jumps. I already have the full chain (howdy neighbor!). But 5 ly makes it 28 jumps and impossible with jump fatigue. There is no way I am working 40 hours a week at EVE - I cannot do that.... and live.

What stops you from using blops + blockade runner buddies + covert cyno alts to get anything you need, anywhere you need it?

The only thing you need to import are t2 mats and fuel that isn't native to your region. Both of those things trivially fit in a blockade runner, and the blops can bridge them at 7+ LY with reduced fatigue to perfectly safe covert cynos.

Look, 1 blops + 10 blockade runners = half a jump freighter worth of cargo that doesn't need to use station midpoints and operates with perfect safety. Produce all of the T1 mats locally, and this solves ALL of your problems.

Quick math test: how many blockade runners do I need and for how long per week to run 1 million m3 to null.

You can call me a liar all you want, but that is my transport need, regardless of the arguments you want to make about it. And I'm just a small corp.

EDIT: we already mine like crazy.


A max cargo fit Prorator is 13.8 km m3

I also ran the numbers on mak fit Impel you can add an extra 24km m3 on top of fleet bay 62 km m3 (at transport V)

Loot Buying service: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4529397#post4529397
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4757 - 2014-10-03 02:04:44 UTC
Rarnak Ki wrote:
I find it funny how many of the people (the only people?) praising the proposed changes to jump freighters have never done alliance scale logistics or any high end industry.

Or, yanno, we did it before JFs were a thing and managed just fine building outposts in drone lands the day after they opened using freigters convoyed through nullsec and supplemented with T1 haulers.

Get off my lawn.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Talvorian Dex
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4758 - 2014-10-03 02:04:54 UTC
Just an FYI to CCP... it's not too late to call this a Half-April Fool's Day (Oct 1) Joke... You can claim it was all for the tears.

Then come back with an actual fix to sov mechanics.

Writer of Target Caller, an Eve Online PvP blog, at http://targetcaller.blogspot.com
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#4759 - 2014-10-03 02:05:17 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Ukiah Oregan wrote:
It seems like you guys really have a big pair of blinders on and simply ignoring how people relocate to different regions in EVE.


Once upon a time I moved to fountain.

Do you know how we did it?

We ferried ships there.
one by one.

Because that was the only way you could do it unless you built them (which required A LOT of mining)

I can't tell you how many good fights we'd have just getting assets into place.
It was a good time for eve. Hell, IT WAS GREAT.

The more they nerf projection and fast travel, the better.


And nerf capitals more so they go pop.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4760 - 2014-10-03 02:06:31 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

I don't have 21 hours per week to risk slipping into a coma from the worst game experience available internationally. But it's actually 42, because 28 mids * 15 minutes * 2 (round trip) * 3 = 42, with a minimum commitment per person of 14.

Get people to help you?

I hear there might be these things called other people in alliances that might be able to lend a hand. You might actually have to pay them for it though - heaven forfend.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."